Political Crossfire Forums

[Refrozen Seabass]

cool_chick wrote: That's why all marriages need to be civil unions in the eyes of the government.

They already are, just like all marriages are also legal contracts.

[cool_chick]

Refrozen Seabass wrote: cool_chick wrote: That's why all marriages need to be civil unions in the eyes of the government.

They already are, just like all marriages are also legal contracts.

Then why does the government issue a "marriage" certificate? If they already are, it would be a civil union certificate.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don't get married?

Do they allow gay marriage?

[George W Bush]

Mormonsstone wrote:
(because I believe gays are born that way)

This is the crux of your dilemma isnt it?

How can you, as a Christian, disapprove of the way someone is born?

Isnt that an activity of God? To let life have this SINFUL aspect?

or, are gays an abomination to you? work of the devil?

I'll close by saying Christans hardly have room to preach. History has shown how intolerant faith is. But, Christianty has its historical pick of the worlds most vicious people. From witch burners to pedophiles.

[cool_chick]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don't get married?

Do they allow gay marriage?

Some may, most don't. What difference does it make? That's between them and their church (or synagogue, etc.)

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: That's why all marriages need to be civil unions in the eyes of the government.

I agree.

[Baconstrip]

Who do you think you are convincing with this post? Do you think a homosexual is going to read what you wrote and say to themselves "Hey, I guess even though Christians treat me like garbage, I respect their reasons..." And let's be honest, it's the what YOU think about them, YOUR personal bias and bigotry. Religion is probably the most arrogant idea ever invented by the human race. You take your intolerant and ignorant opinions and make them the opinions of God. It is one thing to say "I think homosexuality is wrong", which is every American's right to have an opinion, but it is another to say "I think that God thinks that homosexuality is wrong". Talk about arrogance. You think you could possibly understand God or somehow think your argument has more weight simply because you think God has your back on the subject. I despise religion, even for the small amount of good it does in the world, we would still be far better off without it.

[mattwa33193]

Baconstrip wrote: Who do you think you are convincing with this post? Do you think a homosexual is going to read what you wrote and say to themselves "Hey, I guess even though Christians treat me like garbage, I respect their reasons..." And let's be honest, it's the what YOU think about them, YOUR personal bias and bigotry. Religion is probably the most arrogant idea ever invented by the human race. You take your intolerant and ignorant opinions and make them the opinions of God. It is one thing to say "I think homosexuality is wrong", which is every American's right to have an opinion, but it is another to say "I think that God thinks that homosexuality is wrong". Talk about arrogance. You think you could possibly understand God or somehow think your argument has more weight simply because you think God has your back on the subject. I despise religion, even for the small amount of good it does in the world, we would still be far better off without it. :clap: :clap:

[Refrozen Seabass]

cool_chick wrote: Refrozen Seabass wrote: cool_chick wrote: That's why all marriages need to be civil unions in the eyes of the government.

They already are, just like all marriages are also legal contracts.

Then why does the government issue a "marriage" certificate? If they already are, it would be a civil union certificate.

What are you talking about? It's a union between two people, that makes it a civil union. This union takes place via legal contract; it's defined by that contract. Proof of that contract, which defines this civil union, is the marriage certificate.

This differentiation between "Marriage" and "Civil Union" as two separate institutions doesn't exist. It's a term made up by people who don't want gay people to marry because that makes them feel icky, but that's all.

[mattwa33193]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don't get married?

Do they allow gay marriage?

I don't know. What's your point?

[Mormonsstone]

Quote: Some may, most don't. What difference does it make? That's between them and their church (or synagogue, etc.)

Exactly. So why can't the idea of marrying gays for the christian church be between us and our church? Oh yeah, that's right, no other religion can be bad. Only Christians.

[cap'n queasy]

mattwa33193 wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don't get married?

Do they allow gay marriage?

I don't know. What's your point?

Let me enlighten you. No.

[cap'n queasy]

Mormonsstone wrote: Quote: Some may, most don't. What difference does it make? That's between them and their church (or synagogue, etc.)

Exactly. So why can't the idea of marrying gays for the christian church be between us and our church? Oh yeah, that's right, no other religion can be bad. Only Christians.

That's my point.

[mattwa33193]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mormonsstone wrote: Quote: Some may, most don't. What difference does it make? That's between them and their church (or synagogue, etc.)

Exactly. So why can't the idea of marrying gays for the christian church be between us and our church? Oh yeah, that's right, no other religion can be bad. Only Christians.

That's my point.

That's a point?

Please post a quote of someone saying that they wanted to require any church to perform same-sex marriages.

In the alternative, please set your straw man on fire and sweep the ashes out of this forum.

[Ameriman]

Mormonsstone wrote: In this modern society where Homosexuality is largely accepted in society, many people feel that it is their god-given right to exist And I must say I agree: Everyone put on this earth has a reason, everyone put on this earth has a God-given right to exist.

The Christian religion (along with almost every other religion as well), is one of the few institutions left in the country willing to speak out against homosexuality, despite the constant bombardment by a largely Liberal American society. This arises the question by many atheists and gays: why? The religion of love seems to hate these people although they are humans just like us!

Before I continue, I must adress that the fact that Christians HATE Homosexuality is an absloute farce. By no means are homosexuals shunned in the Christian church. While homosexuality is considered a sin, so is every other human activity on the planet these days. Homosexuals are forgiven in our religion, just like any other sin.

But, while modern homosexuals are accepted (and accepted as we aren't trying to kill them or exclude them from the church), the Christian church does not wish to see Homosexuality expand as to influence the younger generations. As an example...when a gay couple grows up and adopts a child, that child will not only be exposed to ridicule from having "Two Daddies" or "Two Mommies", but that child, especially if they are born straight (because I believe gays are born that way) will have to witness their homosexual parents and may be traumatizing to a child whom is straight oriented. Allowing Gay Marriage in the Church's eyes will lead to a proliferation of homosexual culture. In the church's eyes, this will lead to a decay of western society. It is written in the Bible that the cities of Soddom and Gimmorah were destroyed for reasons like perveted sex (which the bible deems homosexual sex as) and other so-called "perverted" issues. Whether or not you choose to believe or follow the Church's stance is your own choice, but this is the church's reason for the way it thinks, and people who follow it tend to think similarly. So next time you think about calling christians biggots for this belief, you have to realize that it's their religion that makes them think this. Why do you say it's ok that muslims blow themselves up because "their religion says too and its not their fault?" Why does it apply to them and not us? While there are many areas of religious dogma that are utterly rediculous and sound proposeterous, you can never eliminate religion from people's lives, so we need to learn to compromise, and Social Contracts granted by the government that grant the equilavent of marriage rights seems to be the only logical solution. Religion has no problem allowing gays to do as they wish, as long as a religious term is not used. We are a forgiving religion, but we also have our own rules, and the government, along with the people of the country, need to respect our rules, just as you'd respect any other opinion.

Hmm..

One question:

If you believe homosexuals are born the way they are...and God makes us the way we are...why would God turn his back on his own creation?

[Ameriman]

George W Bush wrote: Mormonsstone wrote:
(because I believe gays are born that way)

This is the crux of your dilemma isnt it?

How can you, as a Christian, disapprove of the way someone is born?

Isnt that an activity of God? To let life have this SINFUL aspect?

or, are gays an abomination to you? work of the devil?

I'll close by saying Christans hardly have room to preach. History has shown how intolerant faith is. But, Christianty has its historical pick of the worlds most vicious people. From witch burners to pedophiles.

It's at this point that I take exception...

There are "witch burners" (wife stoners, Apostate killers, rape victim executions) and pedophiles in Islam too....why single out Christianity as if it is somehow worse? What do you have against Christianity to make such an off handed and obviously biased statement?

[Mormonsstone]

He doesn't turn his back. They are freely accepted into the church. We also try to encourage our members to not sin. Homosexuality in the Christian Religion is a sin. By marrying them in our church we would be condoning something that we are against. We do not try to change them, we just try our hardest to maintain our own code of morals within the sanctity of our church.

[Ameriman]

Mormonsstone wrote: He doesn't turn his back. They are freely accepted into the church. We also try to encourage our members to not sin. Homosexuality in the Christian Religion is a sin. By marrying them in our church we would be condoning something that we are against. We do not try to change them, we just try our hardest to maintain our own code of morals within the sanctity of our church.

You didn't answer my question. How could something that is naturally occuring be a sin?

That's like saying that all people born with blue eyes are sinners because having blue eyes is a sin...

[Ellron]

Mormonsstone wrote: He doesn't turn his back. They are freely accepted into the church. We also try to encourage our members to not sin. Homosexuality in the Christian Religion is a sin. By marrying them in our church we would be condoning something that we are against. We do not try to change them, we just try our hardest to maintain our own code of morals within the sanctity of our church.

No one is saying you cant not marry gay people in the church we are saying dont make it a law because Christianity does not control all marriage.

[Dookiestix]

Mormonsstone wrote: Indeed it would, but society has, by the time their homosexuality emerges, imprinted that heterosexuality is the norm. Therefore, although it would be a bit traumatizing to the child, they would realize that their parents were "normal" by society's standards and so accept their parents that way.
Society's standards?

Can you get anymore ambiguous?