Political Crossfire Forums

[Mormonsstone]

In this modern society where Homosexuality is largely accepted in society, many people feel that it is their god-given right to exist And I must say I agree: Everyone put on this earth has a reason, everyone put on this earth has a God-given right to exist.

The Christian religion (along with almost every other religion as well), is one of the few institutions left in the country willing to speak out against homosexuality, despite the constant bombardment by a largely Liberal American society. This arises the question by many atheists and gays: why? The religion of love seems to hate these people although they are humans just like us!

Before I continue, I must adress that the fact that Christians HATE Homosexuality is an absloute farce. By no means are homosexuals shunned in the Christian church. While homosexuality is considered a sin, so is every other human activity on the planet these days. Homosexuals are forgiven in our religion, just like any other sin.

But, while modern homosexuals are accepted (and accepted as we aren't trying to kill them or exclude them from the church), the Christian church does not wish to see Homosexuality expand as to influence the younger generations. As an example...when a gay couple grows up and adopts a child, that child will not only be exposed to ridicule from having "Two Daddies" or "Two Mommies", but that child, especially if they are born straight (because I believe gays are born that way) will have to witness their homosexual parents and may be traumatizing to a child whom is straight oriented. Allowing Gay Marriage in the Church's eyes will lead to a proliferation of homosexual culture. In the church's eyes, this will lead to a decay of western society. It is written in the Bible that the cities of Soddom and Gimmorah were destroyed for reasons like perveted sex (which the bible deems homosexual sex as) and other so-called "perverted" issues. Whether or not you choose to believe or follow the Church's stance is your own choice, but this is the church's reason for the way it thinks, and people who follow it tend to think similarly. So next time you think about calling christians biggots for this belief, you have to realize that it's their religion that makes them think this. Why do you say it's ok that muslims blow themselves up because "their religion says too and its not their fault?" Why does it apply to them and not us? While there are many areas of religious dogma that are utterly rediculous and sound proposeterous, you can never eliminate religion from people's lives, so we need to learn to compromise, and Social Contracts granted by the government that grant the equilavent of marriage rights seems to be the only logical solution. Religion has no problem allowing gays to do as they wish, as long as a religious term is not used. We are a forgiving religion, but we also have our own rules, and the government, along with the people of the country, need to respect our rules, just as you'd respect any other opinion.

[William Amos]

Christians arent anti Gay they are pro heterosexial.

Except for a few loonies who take it too extremes.

[wookeyeh]

Quote: ...especially if they are born straight (because I believe gays are born that way) will have to witness their homosexual parents and may be traumatizing to a child whom is straight oriented.

If you believe straights and gays are both born the way they are and are equally different from each other, then would it not be equally "traumatizing" to a child who is gay to witness their straight parents?

[Mormonsstone]

Indeed it would, but society has, by the time their homosexuality emerges, imprinted that heterosexuality is the norm. Therefore, although it would be a bit traumatizing to the child, they would realize that their parents were "normal" by society's standards and so accept their parents that way.

[cool_chick]

This is a great post. I have to admit I love the way you worded it.

One thing though. Why does the government have to abide by this? All of your points are your beliefs, and should be respected, yes. But by the same token, others don't believe the same and should be respected as well.

The bottom line is you should live your life the way you choose, in the eyes of God as you so wish. You've outlined beautifully how you should live your own life. And it's a good life. And you're asking for people to respect your beliefs. And I do. But by the same token, it is only right and just that you also respect others' opinions that do not believe the same way you do.

There is no reason why the government needs to dictate how you should live your life (you should be allowed to live your personal life in the vision of God), and the government shouldn't dictate that you cannot, but there is no reason why the government needs to dictate how a homosexual couple should live their personal lives either.

[Mormonsstone]

Quote: Why does the government have to abide by this?

By no means does the government have to abide by this. They can easily allow gays the same rights as married couples, after all the "marriage contract" was invented by the government anyway. It is simply the issue of gays actually coming to the church for marriage that irks the christian religion. If they get the same benefits anyway, there should be no problem with a different contract that is similar to marriage.

[wookeyeh]

So why not allow gays to marry legally, and leave the exclusionist policies up to the individual churches?

[cool_chick]

Mormonsstone wrote: Quote: Why does the government have to abide by this?

By no means does the government have to abide by this. They can easily allow gays the same rights as married couples, after all the "marriage contract" was invented by the government anyway. It is simply the issue of gays actually coming to the church for marriage that irks the christian religion. If they get the same benefits anyway, there should be no problem with a different contract that is similar to marriage.

IMO, do away with "marriage" in the government all together. It should not be a marriage contract. It should be some sort of civil union contract, since the contract has to do with a civil issue of a union between two people. Currently, a heterosexual couple gets a "marriage" license by the government and go to a judge who "swears them in" and "marries" them. That's not "marriage." That's a civil union. The couple who gets that government contract, then gets a marriage certificate from their church, then marries in a church is marriage, no?

One should go to church to get the marriage certificate, to the government complex to get a civil union agreement. If they go to a JP to get married, the civil union contract is all that's needed for this anyway.

As far as some Christian churches allowing gay people to marry, sure it may irk you, but again, that's what that church chooses to do. You should never attend that church if it violates your beliefs. To be honest, I can't believe some people wear shorts and jeans to some churches. Mine doesn't do that. I don't go to their churches. It's also a matter of preference, respect, and personal choice.

[Yojimbo]

Mormonsstone wrote: In this modern society where Homosexuality is largely accepted in society, many people feel that it is their god-given right to exist And I must say I agree: Everyone put on this earth has a reason, everyone put on this earth has a God-given right to exist.

The Christian religion (along with almost every other religion as well), is one of the few institutions left in the country willing to speak out against homosexuality, despite the constant bombardment by a largely Liberal American society. This arises the question by many atheists and gays: why? The religion of love seems to hate these people although they are humans just like us!

Before I continue, I must adress that the fact that Christians HATE Homosexuality is an absloute farce. By no means are homosexuals shunned in the Christian church. While homosexuality is considered a sin, so is every other human activity on the planet these days. Homosexuals are forgiven in our religion, just like any other sin.

But, while modern homosexuals are accepted (and accepted as we aren't trying to kill them or exclude them from the church), the Christian church does not wish to see Homosexuality expand as to influence the younger generations. As an example...when a gay couple grows up and adopts a child, that child will not only be exposed to ridicule from having "Two Daddies" or "Two Mommies", but that child, especially if they are born straight (because I believe gays are born that way) will have to witness their homosexual parents and may be traumatizing to a child whom is straight oriented. Allowing Gay Marriage in the Church's eyes will lead to a proliferation of homosexual culture. In the church's eyes, this will lead to a decay of western society. It is written in the Bible that the cities of Soddom and Gimmorah were destroyed for reasons like perveted sex (which the bible deems homosexual sex as) and other so-called "perverted" issues. Whether or not you choose to believe or follow the Church's stance is your own choice, but this is the church's reason for the way it thinks, and people who follow it tend to think similarly. So next time you think about calling christians biggots for this belief, you have to realize that it's their religion that makes them think this. Why do you say it's ok that muslims blow themselves up because "their religion says too and its not their fault?" Why does it apply to them and not us? While there are many areas of religious dogma that are utterly rediculous and sound proposeterous, you can never eliminate religion from people's lives, so we need to learn to compromise, and Social Contracts granted by the government that grant the equilavent of marriage rights seems to be the only logical solution. Religion has no problem allowing gays to do as they wish, as long as a religious term is not used. We are a forgiving religion, but we also have our own rules, and the government, along with the people of the country, need to respect our rules, just as you'd respect any other opinion.

I agree that equal legal benefits are the logical solution. That's about the only part of your post I agree with. I don't think anyone was put here for a reason, but I'll leave that one alone. Not everything is considered a sin in today's society. Heterosexuality, for instance. I believe studies have shown that children with gay parents are no more likely to develop mental disorders (or become gay) than children with straight parents. Who says suicide bombing is OK? And why do you want to draw an analogy between yourself and a suicide bomber? Is suicide bombing OK, because "Islam says so?" That seems to be your justification for your anti-gay stance. I don't think you speak for all Christians, just fundamentalists. Same w/ the suicide bombers. Very small % of Muslims. American society largely liberal? Who won that election? Who controls the two elected branches of government? Not liberals.

[Shady]

Mormonsstone wrote: Quote: Why does the government have to abide by this?

By no means does the government have to abide by this. They can easily allow gays the same rights as married couples, after all the "marriage contract" was invented by the government anyway. It is simply the issue of gays actually coming to the church for marriage that irks the christian religion. If they get the same benefits anyway, there should be no problem with a different contract that is similar to marriage.

If the churces allow it then it obviously doesn't irk them. If they don't allow it that is perfectly within in their rights. The government has no more authority to force a church to allow gay people to get married in a religious ceremony then a church does to stop gay people from having a civil union. (wording is a bit jumbled here but I think I got my meaning across- basically seperation of church and state works both ways- government can't interfere with church decisions like refusing to grant a religious marriage to homosexuals).

[Ellron]

Your argument is void because no religion or religion as a whole controls marriage.

It really is just a way to demote homosexuality not through any physical means but social means.

The government should just make all marriages domestic partnerships and leave marriage as a social thing/word.

[Mormonsstone]

Of course religion controls marriage. It's a christian sacrament. The government simply supplies the benefits through the packages and benefits it supplies.

[Revenant]

Your original thesis assumes all Christians are against gay marriage, which is false.

[cool_chick]

Mormonsstone wrote: Of course religion controls marriage. It's a christian sacrament. The government simply supplies the benefits through the packages and benefits it supplies.

How does the government "supplies the benefits through the packages and benefits it supplies?" What "packages" does God require and why is it the government's job to supply it?

[mattwa33193]

[quote="Mormonsstone"]Allowing Gay Marriage in the Church's eyes will lead to a proliferation of homosexual culture. In the church's eyes, this will lead to a decay of western society.[/qoute]

Laws regarding marriage have 0 influence on the proliferation of homosexuality. They're still gay.

Mormonsstone wrote:
It is written in the Bible that the cities of Soddom and Gimmorah were destroyed for reasons like perveted sex (which the bible deems homosexual sex as) and other so-called "perverted" issues.

That is one interpretation of a story about a city that may or may not have existed. Others say it was greed that led to the destruction, or inhospitality, besastiality, failure to ask for or accept forgiveness, or... intolerance.

Mormonsstone wrote:
Why do you say it's ok that muslims blow themselves up because "their religion says too and its not their fault?" Why does it apply to them and not us?

Who on God's green earth says that?

Mormonsstone wrote: While there are many areas of religious dogma that are utterly rediculous and sound proposeterous, you can never eliminate religion from people's lives, so we need to learn to compromise, and Social Contracts granted by the government that grant the equilavent of marriage rights seems to be the only logical solution. Religion has no problem allowing gays to do as they wish, as long as a religious term is not used. We are a forgiving religion, but we also have our own rules, and the government, along with the people of the country, need to respect our rules, just as you'd respect any other opinion.

Respecting your rules is absolutely the right thing to do. Problem is, you are telling everyone we have to follow them.

[mattwa33193]

Mormonsstone wrote: Of course religion controls marriage. It's a christian sacrament. The government simply supplies the benefits through the packages and benefits it supplies.

So.... Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don't get married?

You have it backwards. The government controls marriage. The churches simply get to perform the ceremony.

[Mormonsstone]

Quote: Respecting your rules is absolutely the right thing to do. Problem is, you are telling everyone we have to follow them.

I never said that. I simply noted that the church cannot be told by the government or anyone else that they must be allowed to marry gays if they do not wish it.

Quote: How does the government "supplies the benefits through the packages and benefits it supplies?" What "packages" does God require and why is it the government's job to supply it?

It's not the governments job, they just took it upon themselves. This whole argument is about homosexuals wanting marital benefits that at this moment and time only apply to straight couples. These marital benefits are a package supplied by the government. Religion never requested it, it just happened over the years.

[Nixon]

Renevant wrote: Your original thesis assumes all Christians are against gay marriage, which is false.

I think he meant that their was no major Christian group that advocates gay marriage, which is true.

Liberals are quick to point out that extremist muslims(like the kind that planned 9/11) are a very small minority of the muslim religion as a whole, which is correct.

Yet the same libs will then say that every person who steps into a Church once a week is a Jerry Falwell-loving lunatics who want all homosexuals rounded up, put on trains, and sent to concentration camps.

How can they be so rational about the muslim religion(which is small minority in the U.S., and at the same time unbelievably irrational when it comes to the #1 religion in their own country?

strange

[Demosthenes_]

As a christian i would have to disagree but not on all accounts. I agree that this post is interesting. Everyone knows about the issues dealing with homosexuality. I don't hate homosexuals, they are as much a person as the next in line, but i can't say that i believe in their cause. I have often had difficulities presenting my reasons.

I think that homosexuality is wrong not because another christian told me,but becuase of my own opinions. First, i cant accept the fact that it is natural. Think about it. The male and female sex organs were designed to be compatable with the opposite sex. It makes sense. Male with male isn't natural because they can't reproduce. I think this is a problem because to the best of my knowledge, nature hasn't made any mistakes to date and nature has worked better than any of mans ideas, so who are we to challenge it.
And as a sidenote, God created nature and he didn't intend for us to challenge it.

This is human nature after all. My reason for the recent rise in homosexuality is the family structure in America and around the world. I'm not saying that homosexuality is a curse but lets believe for a second that heterosexuality is the right way to go. If a child growing up has both parents active in that childs life, it will get an equal exposure to feminism and masculinity. If one of the parents is not present though, there is an upset in the balance. In today's society, divorce is common and the number of single parents is on the rise. How can one parent take the place of two. This means that the child won't be exposed to what both parents should give their children.

I understand that this doesnt apply to all homosexuals but i believe it to be a common trend. I have no proof except for the homosexual people that I know at school.

Christians may choose to accept homosexuality because of the social pressures or because they think it right. I know of the pressure to accept homosexuality and I am sure every one else does also.

[mattwa33193]

Nixon wrote: Renevant wrote: Your original thesis assumes all Christians are against gay marriage, which is false.

I think he meant that their was no major Christian group that advocates gay marriage, which is true.

Liberals are quick to point out that extremist muslims(like the kind that planned 9/11) are a very small minority of the muslim religion as a whole, which is correct.

Yet the same libs will then say that every person who steps into a Church once a week is a Jerry Falwell-loving lunatics who want all homosexuals rounded up, put on trains, and sent to concentration camps.

How can they be so rational about the muslim religion(which is small minority in the U.S., and at the same time unbelievably irrational when it comes to the #1 religion in their own country?

strange

Because the Muslims that are telling us we are going to hell are on the other side of the world. The Chiristians that are telling us we are going to hell are all around us.