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[Silkheat]

Was Jesus gay?

Quote: WAS / IS YESHUA OF NAZARETH
(JESUS CHRIST) GAY?

Overview:
We recognize that the title to this essay will be seen by many readers as rather inflammatory. Australian educator, Michael Kelly wrote: "The question is, apparently, provocative....even asking the question is sacrilege, blasphemy, a vilification of Christianity, and a mockery of people's deepest beliefs." 1 Many Christians find it difficult to wrap their minds around the concept of Jesus having been sexually active. The thoughts that he might have been gay are even more difficult to handle.

There is nothing in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which specifically identifies Jesus' sexual orientation. The Bible does not say clearly whether Jesus had a heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation. It is silent on whether Jesus was celibate or sexually active; single or married. 2 However, a few theologians have asserted that Jesus had, and presumably still has, a homosexual orientation.

As is our custom, we explain all sides to the issue.

Nomenclature:
The words "gay" and "homosexual" are difficult to use without causing confusion, because they have multiple meanings:

Many religious conservatives define them in terms of behavior. Homosexuality is what a person does. A homosexual is a person who engages in sexual activities with persons of the same sex.
Many religious liberals, Roman Catholics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, religious mainliners, mental health professionals and human sexuality researchers define these words in terms of feelings. Homosexuality is a part of what a person is. A homosexual is a person who has a homosexual orientation. Their self-identification, fantasies and desire for sexual activity is focused on persons of the same sex.
We will use the second definition in this essay, because it is in general use in the medical and scientific communities, and is in growing use among the public.

These two definitions can lead to disputes. They make dialogue essentially impossible between religious conservatives and others. For example:

A person with a bisexual orientation who engaged in sex with person(s) of the same sex and who now has decided to confine their sexual relationship to a person of the opposite sex is considered to be an ex-gay by many conservative Christians. But many others regard the person to be a bisexual whose sexual orientation has not changed. Only their behavior choice has altered.
A person with a homosexual orientation who was once sexually active and who has decided to remain celibate is also considered an ex-gay by many conservative Christians. But others regard them to be a homosexual whose sexual orientation has not changed. They have simply decided to become sexually inactive.



Indications that Jesus did not have a homosexual orientation:
Since there is no precise statement about Jesus' sexual orientation in the Bible, we can safely start with the assumption that Yeshua/Jesus was a heterosexual. Probably only about 5% of males have a homosexual orientation -- both in ancient Judea during the 1st century CE, and in North America today. So, without considering any other factors, the chances of Jesus being gay is very slim -- about one in twenty.
The vast majority of Christian theologians have probably never seriously considered the possibility that Jesus was gay. If they were asked their opinion on the question, the vast majority would probably consider him to be heterosexual; many probably assume that he was devoid of erotic or sexual feelings.

On the other hand, there is an often quoted concept that reading the Gospels is like looking down a well. What you see in both cases is a reflection of yourself. Social activists often view Jesus as a social activist. Spiritual people frequently look upon Jesus as spiritual. Heterosexuals see at Jesus as a heterosexual. Homosexuals look upon him as gay, etc.
Jesus was an observant Jew who, according to the Gospels, was often followed by Pharisees and scribes who severely criticized him. He was charged with being possessed by Satan. He was accused of being a party animal who consorted with the dregs of society -- prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. Yet there is no record of them accusing him of being gay. In 1st century Judea, same-sex behavior among men was a most serious offense, worthy of the death penalty. If Jesus were gay, and if the Jewish establishment knew of his orientation, they would certainly have used it against him. Yet there is no record in the Gospels or in subsequent Jewish literature of the topic having been mentioned.

On the other hand, the Pharisees may have accused Jesus of being gay. But the story might have never made it into the Gospels. Alternatively, the account might have appeared in early writings, but censored in later Gospel drafts.
In Matthew 19:3-12 and Mark 10:2-12, Jesus supports the concept that God made a man and a woman so that they could marry. He is quoted as saying in both Gospels: "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Also, in Matthew 5:17-18, after the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Jesus obviously supported opposite-sex marriage and the Mosaic Law which called for the execution of all male homosexuals. 3

On the other hand, Jesus' general support for opposite-sex marriage and the Mosaic law gives little or no insight into his actual sexual orientation.
There are hints in the New Testament that Jesus had a very close loving relationship with Mary Magdalene which might have included sexually activity. Some theologians believe that the two were married. Dan Brown in his wildly successful novel "The Da Vinci Code" advocates this position. If Jesus possessed a homosexual orientation, he would have avoided sexual intimacy with all women: The Gospel of John (20:1) states that she was the first person who, alone, visited the cave where Jesus' body was laid. That would have typically been the role of a wife in that society.
John (20:2-10) describes how other followers came to the tomb and left to return home. But Mary stayed. Again this would have been the behavior of a wife.
In John (20:17) Jesus instructed Mary to "Touch me not." Apparently Mary was about to touch his body or at least there was some possibility that she might do so. Again it would have been inconceivable for an man and woman to touch in 1st century Judea, unless they were a married or engaged couple.
There are other indications that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married which we will describe in a future essay. If this is true, then it is very unlikely that he would have been homosexual. He probably would have been heterosexual or bisexual.


Indications that Jesus did have a homosexual orientation:
"In the Gospel of John, the disciple John frequently refers to himself in the third person as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'." 4 For example, during the Last Supper before Jesus' execution, he describes how the "beloved" disciple laid himself on Jesus' inner tunic -- his undergarment. See John 13:25 and 21:20. Robert Goss, assistant professor of comparative religion at Webster University in St. Louis, LA, noted that Jesus and the beloved disciple: "... eat together, side by side. What's being portrayed here is a pederastic relationship between an older man and a younger man. A Greek reader would understand." 5 Jesus appears to have loved all of his male and female followers in a close, trusting, non-erotic manner. However, the "beloved" disciple appears to be in a special relationship with Jesus; the disciple was "the" beloved. He was in a class by himself.

On the other hand: Some commentators have suggested that it was a common practice in Judea at that time for heterosexual man to lay his head on another's undergarment. Such behavior was common between two heterosexuals in an emotionally close but non-erotic relationship during the first century CE. 6
Jenny Stokes, research director for Saltshakers, a conservative Christian group in Australia, said that there are five words for love in Greek (the language in which the Gospels were written: Agape: spiritual, unconditional love,
Eros: erotic love,
Philia: love between friends,
Storge: familial love.

The Gospel references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" use the word "agape." 3 Whether the authors originally used "eros" and the word was subsequently changed is open to speculation.


"Jagannath" interprets the Gospels differently. He argues that Jesus may have been bisexual. He wrote: "In the Book of John a word is used eight times that means 'is in love with' with the implication of sexual intimacy. Five times it is used with reference to Jesus' relationship with John. Once it is used to define Jesus' relationship with Lazarus. And it is also used to describe his relationship with Mary and with her sister Martha." 7
During the crucifixion, in John 19:26-28, Jesus is described as seeing his mother and an unidentified man: "the disciple standing by, whom he loved." Jesus probably loved all of his 12 or 70 disciples in a non-sexual manner. But this particular disciple is identified as "the" disciple who Jesus loved. That might indicate a special intimate relationship with one special disciple.
The late Morton Smith, of Columbia University reported in 1958 that he had found a fragment of a manuscript which at the Mar Saba monastery near Jerusalem. It contained the full text of Mark, chapter 10. Apparently the version that is in the Christian Scriptures is an edited version of the original. Additional verses allegedly formed part of the full version of Mark, and were inserted after verse 34. It discusses how a young man, naked but for a linen covering, expressed his love for Jesus and stayed with him at his place all night. More details.
"J Richards" suggested that Mark 7:14-16 shows that Jesus approves of homosexual acts. The critical phrase reads: "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him..." Richards suggests that Jesus gave great emphasis to this teaching, directing it to everyone. Richards suggests that the sentence refers to dietary laws and also extends to "blood transfusions, medication, organ transplants, and artificial insemination" and to homosexual acts as well. 8

On the other hand, these words have historically been interpreted as overturning the Mosaic law about eating,
Rollan McCleary, was awarded his doctorate from the University of Queensland in Australia during 2003-MAY for his work researching the sexual orientation of Jesus and his disciples. He obtained about $33,000 US in funding from the government to finance his degree. He concluded that Jesus and at least three of his disciples were gay. He based this conclusion on excerpts from the Gospel of John and on Jesus' astrological chart based on the approximate year, month, day and place where he was born. Considering that many theologians have concluded that Jesus was born sometime in the Fall, between 4 and 7 BCE, it is difficult to understand how an accurate astrological chart can be prepared. Dr. McCleary told Australian Broadcasting Commission radio that, in the past, "one or two queer theologians" had attempted to show Jesus was gay. "People haven't taken them very seriously because they don't have any evidence and they say things so sensationally that people are not really going to listen or just be very angry. What I'm doing is showing a much more theological and also astrological dimension on all this which will make a lot more sense to people." 9 He has written a book based on his doctoral thesis which was published in 2004. 18
An anonymous webmaster wrote about a revelation that he received during her/his daily prayer and meditation: "Suddenly many aspects of the New Testament made sense. Jesus never married. He preached love, tolerance, and forgiveness of sins. He did not condemn and vilify as his so-called followers do today. He surrounded himself with men whom he loved. The Bible says nothing of Jesus' sexuality, yet we are taught that he was both divine and fully man. Why did he never marry? Why is the New Testament silent about his sexuality? It became so clear when I had the insight that Jesus was probably gay and that He understood hatred and bigotry first-hand." 10
Mark 14:51-52 describes the incident when Jesus was arrested by the religious police. It describes how one of Jesus' followers was scantily dressed. The King James Version says he had a linen cloth cast on his naked body; the size and location of the cloth is not defined. The New International Version says that he was "wearing nothing but a linen garment." When the police tried to seize him, they were able to grab only his cloth; the man ran away naked. Reverend Peter Murphy wrote: "We don't know from the sources what really was going on, but we do know that something was very peculiar between Jesus and young men." 11 (Emphasis in the original.)
Michael Kelly wrote of Jesus' attitude towards a same-sex couple as described in Matthew 8:5-13: and Luke 7:2: "One day a Roman Centurion asked him to heal his dying servant. Scholars of both Scripture and Ancient History tell us that Roman Centurions, who were not permitted to marry while in service, regularly chose a favorite male slave to be their personal assistant and sexual servant. Such liaisons were common in the Greco-Roman world and it was not unusual for them to deepen into loving partnerships....Jesus offered to go to the servant, but the centurion asked him simply to speak a word of healing, since he was not worthy to welcome this itinerant Jewish teacher under his roof. Jesus responded by healing the servant and proclaiming that even in Israel he had never found faith like this! So, in the one Gospel story where Jesus encountered people sharing what we would call a 'gay relationship,' we see him simply concerned about — and deeply moved by — their faith and love." Kelly implies that Jesus' sensitivity towards the gay couple might have arisen from his own bisexual or homosexual orientation. 1
Some commentators argue from silence. They note that there is no passage in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) that directly describes anything about Jesus' sexuality. There are many direct and indirect references to Jesus' sensuality. He was accused of being a "drunkard and a glutton" and of partying with "prostitutes and sinners." He apparently enjoyed a tender foot massage from a woman. Yet, neither Jesus' sexuality nor his celibacy is mentioned. Yet, sex is referred to, elsewhere in the Bible, quite often. One might argue that the books in the Christian Scriptures might have once described Jesus' sexual relationships, but that these passages have been vigorously censored by the later church because they were unconventional.
Other commentators have noted that Jesus is silent towards homosexuality in the Gospels. Yet, Paul's opinions and those of many other authors in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) are clearly stated. They conclude that Jesus might have been gay himself. Odler Jeanlouie speculated: "Is it meaningful that, in the Sermon on the Mount, central to his teaching, he offered a one-way trip to the Kingdom of God, to anyone who is persecuted?" 12



Public reactions to the suggestion that Jesus was gay:
Some indications of the anger displayed by Americans on this topic include:

Bomb threats and a promise to "burn the place to the ground" sent to the Manhattan Theatre Club if they included the Terrance McNally play Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ) in its 1998 schedule. It portrayed Jesus and his disciples as a group of gays. The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) and the Family Research Council organized a demonstration of over 3,000 Roman Catholic and Protestant Christians to protest the play being shown in New York City. 13 The theatre first cancelled the play, then reinstated it. In 1999-AUG, after being staged in New York City, it completed a run at the Edinburgh Festival. Florida legislators threatened to cut off funding for the Florida Atlantic University if this same play was shown there.
Sheik Omar Bakri Muhammad, judge of the Shari'ah Court of the UK -- an Islamic group -- issued a death fatwa against Terrence McNally. The fatwa is not enforceable in the UK. However, "If he travels to an Islamic state, then he would risk arrest and execution." 14
The protests have continued. A Roman Catholic group, America Needs Fatima, a subgroup of TFP has distributed hundreds of signed, preprinted postcards which protested the proposed 2004-MAR production of "Corpus Christi," in Madison, WI. The group had previously been successful in having the play canceled at a community college in Grand Rapids, MI. 15
Over a million people wrote protest letters from 1984 to the end of 1985 against a non existent gay Jesus film. It was believed to have portrayed Jesus as a bisexual who had an affair with Mary Magdalene. By late 1984, the office of the Attorney general of Illinois was receiving about 1,000 protest letters a week. The movie was a hoax -- a Christian urban legend. No trace of it was ever found. 16

On the other hand, a survey conducted by Talk Radio in London, UK, on 1997-DEC-14 found that:

51% said that revelations of Jesus being a homosexual would not affect their religious belief.
49% said it would. 17



Interesting point of view. I have never given this a thought, but the possibility remains. I personally believe that he was married to Mary Magdeline simply because of her rabid persecution by the church.

However if you see that the catholic church is mired with homosexual pedophiles the possibility remains that they were following teachings not distributed to the masses in regards to Jesus.

Very interesting, your thoughts?

[cap'n queasy]

My thought is how many times are you going to post this?

[Silkheat]

cap'n queasy wrote: My thought is how many times are you going to post this?



???????????????? I've never posted this before. SO why are you asking that question? You seem to know about the bible so what are your thoughts?

[cap'n queasy]

It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before.

[Silkheat]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before.


Could you show me these threads as I don't recall them.Actually I have never posted this, and it is apparent you can't handle a decent discussion on this issue.

It certainly isn't rediculous, can you show me where he was married or dating? There is a big piece of his life missing from the bible, and it never mentioned him with a women.

[Enoch]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.

[Silkheat]

UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.


Yeah, the whole catholic church prosecution sinches it for me. Also I was raised catholic and always thought of her as a prostitute untill I read the bible.

[cap'n queasy]

UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.

It's a troll subject because it is not legitimate and inflammatory. It is designed only to cause distress to Christians by people who dislike them and don't even credit any authority to any writings concerning them. So trying to turn around and use those writing to make it seem like they say something they clearly do not is ridiculous.

And this subject has been posted a couple of times already and silkheat has taken part in those discussions.

The only reason he brings it up yet again is to be inflammatory.

See this statement in the second paragraph:
Quote: There is nothing in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which specifically identifies Jesus' sexual orientation.

If this is so, on what basis is this claim made in the first place? Why make it?

I could go find an article that says homosexuals are inherently prone to pedophilia and AIDS and post it and give an opinion. But I do not because it is a ridiculous supposition and the only reason to do such a thing would to be inflammatory and hateful. And I could then keep posting it over and over.

It would meet the exact same criteria as this subject and it would be trolling.

[cap'n queasy]

Silkheat wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.


Yeah, the whole catholic church prosecution sinches it for me. Also I was raised catholic and always thought of her as a prostitute untill I read the bible.

Yeah, the Bible doesn't say Mary was a prostitute and it also doesn't say they were married, so why apply a different criteria to each supposition?

If it doesn't say it, why make the claim in the first place?

Answer: to provoke people.

[John]

UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.

It isn't a "denouncement" by the Catholic Church. If anything the Catholic Church is taking the stance that even a prostitute can experience the regeneration of being born again. The Catholic Church hasn’t suggested that she remained a prostitute. In fact they consider her a Saint…the Saint of penitents.

[Silkheat]

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.

It isn't a "denouncement" by the Catholic Church. If anything the Catholic Church is taking the stance that even a prostitute can experience the regeneration of being born again. The Catholic Church hasn’t suggested that she remained a prostitute. In fact they consider her a Saint…the Saint of penitents.

The catholic church does teach that she was a prostitute, I know first hand. If you ask many Catholics you'll find out too.

[Silkheat]

cap'n queasy wrote:

Yeah, the Bible doesn't say Mary was a prostitute and it also doesn't say they were married, so why apply a different criteria to each supposition?

If it doesn't say it, why make the claim in the first place?

Answer: to provoke people.


Well we have established there are more scriptures that were left out of the bible. I would acertain that Jesus was married as it was normal for that time, and a person in their thirties who was unmarried would have had a stygma attached to them.

[John]

Silkheat wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's ridiculous. And it's trolling.

And you have posted in three of four threads in which this appeared before. It's not trolling. He offered up an article for debate, stated an opinion on said article, and gave the link to the article; all per forum rules.

As for the original post, silk, I tend to agree with you that it was likely Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline. Given the denouncement of her by the Catholic Church as a prostitute, the only devout female follower mentioned in the bible (to my knowledge), and the fact that she was the messenger of Jesus's resurrection to the disciples; I would say that the idea that the two fo them were married has some merit.

It isn't a "denouncement" by the Catholic Church. If anything the Catholic Church is taking the stance that even a prostitute can experience the regeneration of being born again. The Catholic Church hasn’t suggested that she remained a prostitute. In fact they consider her a Saint…the Saint of penitents.

The catholic church does teach that she was a prostitute, I know first hand. If you ask many Catholics you'll find out too.

So what? They teach that she was a sinner who was saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We're all sinners.

Does the Catholic church not teach that she is a Saint?

[Silkheat]

cap'n queasy wrote:

It's a troll subject because it is not legitimate and inflammatory. It is designed only to cause distress to Christians by people who dislike them and don't even credit any authority to any writings concerning them. So trying to turn around and use those writing to make it seem like they say something they clearly do not is ridiculous.

Go to the page, it gives its references. Also use google there are many articles concerning this. I don't believe Jesus was gay, but who knows?

Quote:
And this subject has been posted a couple of times already and silkheat has taken part in those discussions.

I have never seen this posted before, would you care to reference these posts?


Quote:
The only reason he brings it up yet again is to be inflammatory.

It is only inflammatory if you can't rationaly discuss this, and again just because your offended doesn't detract from this thread.

Quote:
If this is so, on what basis is this claim made in the first place? Why make it?


Because it brings up an interesting point:

Why are christians so against homosexuality, when Jesus himself might have been gay.

Quote:
I could go find an article that says homosexuals are inherently prone to pedophilia and AIDS and post it and give an opinion. But I do not because it is a ridiculous supposition and the only reason to do such a thing would to be inflammatory and hateful. And I could then keep posting it over and over.

You could and I would debate it with you.

Quote:
It would meet the exact same criteria as this subject and it would be trolling.

Not if there was sound methodology behind your assumption.

[Silkheat]

John wrote:

So what? They teach that she was a sinner who was saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We're all sinners.

Does the Catholic church not teach that she is a Saint?

SO what?? They teach a lie and that is OK with you?

[eynon]

from scrolling through the first 4 pages of the Christianity forum, here are all the threads on gayness:
MINISTER FACES REPRIMAND FOR MARRYING GAYS
Brokeback Mountain - Love Is A Force Of Nature
Gay people & The Church
Gay Marrage
GAY vs GOD
The Homosexual Controversy
Gay Ministers
Was Jesus Fruity?
Can a person be homosexual and christian at the same time
Another OPINION needed post about God 'curing' gays
How many forum christians know someone gay?
On the Gay issue

12 threads in less then 4 pages..........why is our culture so obsessed with homosexuality? or more specfically, why is this forum so obsessed with homosexuality? the bible spends so little time on it, I've been going to church for 3 years and it's never come up. It's not that important an issue. Of all he evil that corrupts this world; child abuse, poverty, genocide, famine, plauge, fraud, usury, decedance, depression, explotation, the rape of the enviorment, etc.....we are focused on this small, stupid issue of sexuality.....WTF!!!!

Does a person's sexuality define that person? Is that all they are? Is that even the most important aspect of their existence? Oh, well I'm a "gay person", so the f**k what, I like oral sex, does that make me an "oral person" does it define my life? NO!!!!

Sex is not that important, it's not that big a deal....it's consiquences can be, but in and of itself it matters little in terms of the trials and issues we face in life. So please.....CAN WE MOVE THE f**k ON!

[John]

Silkheat wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:

Yeah, the Bible doesn't say Mary was a prostitute and it also doesn't say they were married, so why apply a different criteria to each supposition?

If it doesn't say it, why make the claim in the first place?

Answer: to provoke people.


Well we have established there are more scriptures that were left out of the bible. I would acertain that Jesus was married as it was normal for that time, and a person in their thirties who was unmarried would have had a stygma attached to them.

Jesus wasn't a Pharisee. It’s hogwash that Jesus had to be married or it would have been a stigma. He was a carpenter which was a very poor trade. It wouldn’t have been rare for a poor man to have to save his money for a long time in order to be able to pay the dowry to marry a virgin bride. There were many poor Jewish men that were not married.

It might have been a “stigma” for a rich Pharisee as a member of the Sanhedrin to not be married…but Jesus wasn’t of this sort.

[John]

Silkheat wrote: John wrote:

So what? They teach that she was a sinner who was saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We're all sinners.

Does the Catholic church not teach that she is a Saint?

SO what?? They teach a lie and that is OK with you?

I don't know that it's a lie. She was a sinner. The Bible records that Jesus cast seven demons out of her. Maybe she is the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair (a prostitute)...it's debatable.

You need to simmer down Hos, with your accusations.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Well we have established there are more scriptures that were left out of the bible

No, you haven't. Those aren't scriptures. They are writings from the same religion that claims this as their cosmology:

Quote: THE GNOSTIC SOCIETY LIBRARY

The Nag Hammadi Library
On the Origin of the World
("The Untitled Text")

Translated by Hans-Gebhard Bethge and Bentley Layton


Seeing that everybody, gods of the world and mankind, says that nothing existed prior to chaos, I, in distinction to them, shall demonstrate that they are all mistaken, because they are not acquainted with the origin of chaos, nor with its root. Here is the demonstration.

How well it suits all men, on the subject of chaos, to say that it is a kind of darkness! But in fact it comes from a shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. And the shadow comes from a product that has existed since the beginning. It is, moreover, clear that it existed before chaos came into being, and that the latter is posterior to the first product. Let us therefore concern ourselves with the facts of the matter; and furthermore, with the first product, from which chaos was projected. And in this way the truth will be clearly demonstrated.

After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom). It exercised volition and became a product resembling the primeval light. And immediately her will manifested itself as a likeness of heaven, having an unimaginable magnitude; it was between the immortal beings and those things that came into being after them, like [...]: she (Sophia) functioned as a veil dividing mankind from the things above.

Now the eternal realm (aeon) of truth has no shadow outside it, for the limitless light is everywhere within it. But its exterior is shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. From it, there appeared a force, presiding over the darkness. And the forces that came into being subsequent to them called the shadow 'the limitless chaos'. From it, every kind of divinity sprouted up [...] together with the entire place, so that also, shadow is posterior to the first product. It was <in> the abyss that it (shadow) appeared, deriving from the aforementioned Pistis.

Then shadow perceived there was something mightier than it, and felt envy; and when it had become pregnant of its own accord, suddenly it engendered jealousy. Since that day, the principle of jealousy amongst all the eternal realms and their worlds has been apparent. Now as for that jealousy, it was found to be an abortion without any spirit in it. Like a shadow, it came into existence in a vast watery substance. Then the bile that had come into being out of the shadow was thrown into a part of chaos. Since that day, a watery substance has been apparent. And what sank within it flowed away, being visible in chaos: as with a woman giving birth to a child - all her superfluities flow out; just so, matter came into being out of shadow, and was projected apart. And it did not depart from chaos; rather, matter was in chaos, being in a part of it.

And when these things had come to pass, then Pistis came and appeared over the matter of chaos, which had been expelled like an aborted fetus - since there was no spirit in it. For all of it (chaos) was limitless darkness and bottomless water. Now when Pistis saw what had resulted from her defect, she became disturbed. And the disturbance appeared, as a fearful product; it rushed to her in the chaos. She turned to it and blew into its face in the abyss, which is below all the heavens.

And when Pistis Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no spirit to be formed into a likeness and to rule over matter and over all her forces, there appeared for the first time a ruler, out of the waters, lion-like in appearance, androgynous, having great authority within him, and ignorant of whence he had come into being. Now when Pistis Sophia saw him moving about in the depth of the waters, she said to him, "Child, pass through to here," whose equivalent is 'yalda baoth'.

Since that day, there appeared the principle of verbal expression, which reached the gods and the angels and mankind. And what came into being as a result of verbal expression, the gods and the angels and mankind finished. Now as for the ruler Yaltabaoth, he is ignorant of the force of Pistis: he did not see her face, rather he saw in the water the likeness that spoke with him. And because of that voice, he called himself 'Yaldabaoth'. But 'Ariael' is what the perfect call him, for he was like a lion. Now when he had come to have authority over matter, Pistis Sophia withdrew up to her light.

When the ruler saw his magnitude - and it was only himself that he saw: he saw nothing else, except for water and darkness - then he supposed that it was he alone who existed. His [...] was completed by verbal expression: it appeared as a spirit moving to and fro upon the waters. And when that spirit appeared, the ruler set apart the watery substance. And what was dry was divided into another place. And from matter, he made for himself an abode, and he called it 'heaven'. And from matter, the ruler made a footstool, and he called it 'earth'.

Next, the ruler had a thought - consistent with his nature - and by means of verbal expression he created an androgyne. He opened his mouth and cooed to him. When his eyes had been opened, he looked at his father, and he said to him, "Eee!" Then his father called him Eee-a-o ('Yao'). Next he created the second son. He cooed to him. And he opened his eyes and said to his father, "Eh!" His father called him 'Eloai'. Next, he created the third son. He cooed to him. And he opened his eyes and said to his father, "Asss!" His father called him 'Astaphaios'. These are the three sons of their father.

Seven appeared in chaos, androgynous. They have their masculine names and their feminine names. The feminine name is Pronoia (Forethought) Sambathas, which is 'week'.
And his son is called Yao: his feminine name is Lordship.
Sabaoth: his feminine name is Deity.
Adonaios: his feminine name is Kingship.
Elaios: his feminine name is Jealousy.
Oraios: his feminine name is Wealth.
And Astaphaios: his feminine name is Sophia (Wisdom).
These are the seven forces of the seven heavens of chaos. And they were born androgynous, consistent with the immortal pattern that existed before them, according to the wish of Pistis: so that the likeness of what had existed since the beginning might reign to the end. You will find the effect of these names and the force of the male entities in the Archangelic (Book) of the Prophet Moses, and the names of the female entities in the first Book of Noraia.

Now the prime parent Yaldabaoth, since he possessed great authorities, created heavens for each of his offspring through verbal expression - created them beautiful, as dwelling places - and in each heaven he created great glories, seven times excellent. Thrones and mansions and temples, and also chariots and virgin spirits up to an invisible one and their glories, each one has these in his heaven; mighty armies of gods and lords and angels and archangels - countless myriads - so that they might serve. The account of these matters you will find in a precise manner in the first Account of Oraia.

And they were completed from this heaven to as far up as the sixth heaven, namely that of Sophia. The heaven and his earth were destroyed by the troublemaker that was below them all. And the six heavens shook violently; for the forces of chaos knew who it was that had destroyed the heaven that was below them. And when Pistis knew about the breakage resulting from the disturbance, she sent forth her breath and bound him and cast him down into Tartaros. Since that day, the heaven, along with its earth, has consolidated itself through Sophia the daughter of Yaldabaoth, she who is below them all.

Now when the heavens had consolidated themselves along with their forces and all their administration, the prime parent became insolent. And he was honored by all the army of angels. And all the gods and their angels gave blessing and honor to him. And for his part, he was delighted and continually boasted, saying to them, "I have no need of anyone." He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no other one that exists apart from me." And when he said this, he sinned against all the immortal beings who give answer. And they laid it to his charge.

Then when Pistis saw the impiety of the chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael," (that is, "blind god"). "There is an immortal man of light who has been in existence before you, and who will appear among your modelled forms; he will trample you to scorn, just as potter's clay is pounded. And you will descend to your mother, the abyss, along with those that belong to you. For at the consummation of your (pl.) works, the entire defect that has become visible out of the truth will be abolished, and it will cease to be, and will be like what has never been." Saying this, Pistis revealed her likeness of her greatness in the waters. And so doing, she withdrew up to her light.

Now when Sabaoth, the son of Yaldabaoth, heard the voice of Pistis, he sang praises to her, and he condemned the father [...] at the word of Pistis; and he praised her because she had instructed them about the immortal man and his light. Then Pistis Sophia stretched out her finger and poured upon him some light from her light, to be a condemnation of his father. Then when Sabaoth was illumined, he received great authority against all the forces of chaos. Since that day he has been called "Lord of the Forces".

He hated his father, the darkness, and his mother, the abyss, and loathed his sister, the thought of the prime parent, which moved to and fro upon the waters. And because of his light, all the authorities of chaos were jealous of him. And when they had become disturbed, they made a great war in the seven heavens. Then when Pistis Sophia had seen the war, she dispatched seven archangels to Sabaoth from her light. They snatched him up to the seventh heaven. They stood before him as attendants. Furthermore, she sent him three more archangels, and established the kingdom for him over everyone, so that he might dwell above the twelve gods of chaos.

Now when Sabaoth had taken up the place of repose in return for his repentance, Pistis also gave him her daughter Zoe (Life), together with great authority, so that she might instruct him about all things that exist in the eighth heaven. And as he had authority, he made himself first of all a mansion. It is huge, magnificent, seven times as great as all those that exist in the seven heavens.

And before his mansion he created a throne, which was huge and was upon a four-faced chariot called "Cherubin". Now the Cherubin has eight shapes per each of the four corners, lion forms and calf forms and human forms and eagle forms, so that all the forms amount to sixty-four forms - and seven archangels that stand before it; he is the eighth, and has authority. All the forms amount to seventy-two. Furthermore, from this chariot the seventy-two gods took shape; they took shape so that they might rule over the seventy-two languages of the peoples. And by that throne he created other, serpent-like angels, called "Seraphin", which praise him at all times.

Thereafter he created a congregation of angels, thousands and myriads, numberless, which resembled the congregation in the eighth heaven; and a firstborn called

Israel - which is, "the man that sees God"; and another being, called Jesus Christ, who resembles the savior above in the eighth heaven, and who sits at his right upon a revered throne. And at his left, there sits the virgin of the holy spirit, upon a throne and glorifying him. And the seven virgins stand before her, [...] possessing thirty harps, and psalteries and trumpets, glorifying him. And all the armies of the angels glorify him, and they bless him. Now where he sits is upon a throne of light <within a> great cloud that covers him. And there was no one with him in the cloud except Sophia <the daughter of> Pistis, instructing him about all the things that exist in the eighth heaven, so that the likenesses of those things might be created, in order that his reign might endure until the consummation of the heavens of chaos and their forces.

Now Pistis Sophia set him apart from the darkness and summoned him to her right, and the prime parent she put at her left. Since that day, right has been called justice, and left called wickedness. Now because of this, they all received a realm in the congregation of justice and wickedness, [...] stand [...] upon a creature [...] all.

Thus, when the prime parent of chaos saw his son Sabaoth and the glory that he was in, and perceived that he was greatest of all the authorities of chaos, he envied him. And having become wrathful, he engendered Death out of his death: and he (viz., Death) was established over the sixth heaven, <for> Sabaoth had been snatched up from there. And thus the number of the six authorities of chaos was achieved. Then Death, being androgynous, mingled with his (own) nature and begot seven androgynous offspring. These are the names of the male ones: Jealousy, Wrath, Tears, Sighing, Suffering, Lamentation, Bitter Weeping. And these are the names of the female ones: Wrath, Pain, Lust, Sighing, Curse, Bitterness, Quarrelsomeness. They had intercourse with one another, and each one begot seven, so that they amount to forty-nine androgynous demons. Their names and their effects you will find in the Book of Solomon.

And in the presence of these, Zoe, who was with Sabaoth, created seven good androgynous forces. These are the names of the male ones: the Unenvious, the Blessed, the Joyful, the True, the Unbegrudging, the Beloved, the Trustworthy. Also, as regards the female ones, these are their names: Peace, Gladness, Rejoicing, Blessedness, Truth, Love, Faith (Pistis). And from these are many good and innocent spirits. Their influences and their effects you will find in the Configurations of the Fate of Heaven That Is Beneath the Twelve.

And having seen the likeness of Pistis in the waters, the prime parent grieved very much, especially when he heard her voice, like the first voice that had called to him out of the waters. And when he knew that it was she who had given a name to him, he sighed. He was ashamed on account of his transgression. And when he had come to know in truth that an immortal man of light had been existing before him, he was greatly disturbed; for he had previously said to all the gods and their angels, "It is I who am god. No other one exists apart from me." For he had been afraid they might know that another had been in existence before him, and might condemn him. But he, being devoid of understanding, scoffed at the condemnation and acted recklessly. He said, "If anything has existed before me, let it appear, so that we may see its light."

And immediately, behold! Light came out of the eighth heaven above and passed through all of the heavens of the earth. When the prime parent saw that the light was beautiful as it radiated, he was amazed. And he was greatly ashamed. As that light appeared, a human likeness appeared within it, very wonderful. And no one saw it except for the prime parent and Pronoia, who was with him. Yet its light appeared to all the forces of the heavens. Because of this they were all troubled by it.

Then when Pronoia saw that emissary, she became enamored of him. But he hated her because she was on the darkness. But she desired to embrace him, and she was not able to. When she was unable to assuage her love, she poured out her light upon the earth. Since that day, that emissary has been called "Adam of Light," whose rendering is "the luminous man of blood," and the earth spread over him, holy Adaman, whose rendering is "the Holy Land of Adamantine." Since that day, all the authorities have honored the blood of the virgin. And the earth was purified on account of the blood of the virgin. But most of all, the water was purified through the likeness of Pistis Sophia, who had appeared to the prime parent in the waters. Justly, then, it has been said: "through the waters." The holy water, since it vivifies the all, purifies it.

Out of that first blood Eros appeared, being androgynous. His masculinity is Himireris, being fire from the light. His femininity that is with him - a soul of blood - is from the stuff of Pronoia. He is very lovely in his beauty, having a charm beyond all the creatures of chaos. Then all the gods and their angels, when they beheld Eros, became enamored of him. And appearing in all of them, he set them afire: just as from a single lamp many lamps are lit, and one and the same light is there, but the lamp is not diminished. And in this way, Eros became dispersed in all the created beings of chaos, and was not diminished. Just as from the midpoint of light and darkness Eros appeared and at the midpoint of the angels and mankind the sexual union of Eros was consummated, so out of the earth the primal pleasure blossomed. The woman followed earth. And marriage followed woman. Birth followed marriage. Dissolution followed birth.

After that Eros, the grapevine sprouted up out of that blood, which had been shed over the earth. Because of this, those who drink of it conceive the desire of sexual union. After the grapevine, a fig tree and a pomegranate tree sprouted up from the earth, together with the rest of the trees, all species, having with them their seed from the seed of the authorities and their angels.

Then Justice created Paradise, being beautiful and being outside the orbit of the moon and the orbit of the sun in the Land of Wantonness, in the East in the midst of the stones. And desire is in the midst of the beautiful, appetizing trees. And the tree of eternal life is as it appeared by God's will, to the north of Paradise, so that it might make eternal the souls of the pure, who shall come forth from the modelled forms of poverty at the consummation of the age. Now the color of the tree of life is like the sun. And its branches are beautiful. Its leaves are like those of the cypress. Its fruit is like a bunch of grapes when it is white. Its height goes as far as heaven. And next to it (is) the tree of knowledge (gnosis), having the strength of God. Its glory is like the moon when fully radiant. And its branches are beautiful. Its leaves are like fig leaves. Its fruit is like a good appetizing date. And this tree is to the north of Paradise, so that it might arouse the souls from the torpor of the demons, in order that they might approach the tree of life and eat of its fruit, and so condemn the authorities and their angels. The effect of this tree is described in the Sacred Book, to wit: "It is you who are the tree of knowledge, which is in Paradise, from which the first man ate and which opened his mind; and he loved his female counterpart and condemned the other, alien likenesses and loathed them."

Now after it, the olive tree sprouted up, which was to purify the kings and the high priests of righteousness, who were to appear in the last days, since the olive tree appeared out of the light of the first Adam for the sake of the unguent that they were to receive.

And the first soul (psyche) loved Eros, who was with her, and poured her blood upon him and upon the earth. And out of that blood the rose first sprouted up, out of the earth, out of the thorn bush, to be a source of joy for the light that was to appear in the bush. Moreover, after this the beautiful, good-smelling flowers sprouted up from the earth, different kinds, from every single virgin of the daughters of Pronoia. And they, when they had become enamored of Eros, poured out their blood upon him and upon the earth. After these, every plant sprouted up from the earth, different kinds, containing the seed of the authorities and their angels. After these, the authorities created out of the waters all species of beast, and the reptiles and birds - different kinds - containing the seed of the authorities and their angels.

But before all these, when he had appeared on the first the first day, he remained upon the earth, something like two days, and left the lower Pronoia in heaven, and ascended towards his light. And immediately darkness covered all the universe. Now when she wished, the Sophia who was in the lower heaven received authority from Pistis, and fashioned great luminous bodies and all the stars. And she put them in the sky to shine upon the earth and to render temporal signs and seasons and years and months and days and nights and moments and so forth. And in this way the entire region upon the sky was adorned.

Now when Adam of Light conceived the wish to enter his light - i.e., the eighth heaven - he was unable to do so because of the poverty that had mingled with his light. Then he created for himself a vast eternal realm. And within that eternal realm he created six eternal realms and their adornments, six in number, that were seven times better than the heavens of chaos and their adornments. Now all these eternal realms and their adornments exist within the infinity that is between the eighth heaven and the chaos below it, being counted with the universe that belongs to poverty. If you want to know the arrangement of these, you will find it written in the Seventh Universe of the Prophet Hieralias.

And before Adam of Light had withdrawn in the chaos, the authorities saw him and laughed at the prime parent because he had lied when he said, "It is I who am God. No one exists before me." When they came to him, they said, "Is this not the god who ruined our work?" He answered and said, "Yes. If you do not want him to be able to ruin our work, come let us create a man out of earth, according to the image of our body and according to the likeness of this being, to serve us; so that when he sees his likeness, he might become enamored of it. No longer will he ruin our work; rather,we shall make those who are born out of the light our servants for all the duration of this eternal realm." Now all of this came to pass according to the forethought of Pistis, in order that man should appear after his likeness, and should condemn them because of their modelled form. And their modelled form became an enclosure of the light.

Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them.

Now the production of the instructor came about as follows. When Sophia let fall a droplet of light, it flowed onto the water, and immediately a human being appeared, being androgynous. That droplet she molded first as a female body. Afterwards, using the body she molded it in the likeness of the mother, which had appeared. And he finished it in twelve months. An androgynous human being was produced, whom the Greeks call Hermaphrodites; and whose mother the Hebrews call Eve of Life (Zoe), namely, the female instructor of life. Her offspring is the creature that is lord. Afterwards, the authorities called it "Beast", so that it might lead astray their modelled creatures. The interpretation of "the beast" is "the instructor". For it was found to be the wisest of all beings.

Now, Eve is the first virgin, the one who without a husband bore her first offspring. It is she who served as her own midwife. For this reason she is held to have said:

It is I who am the part of my mother; and it is I who am the mother.
It is I who am the wife; it is I who am the virgin.
It is I who am pregnant; it is I who am the midwife.
It is I who am the one that comforts pains of travail.
It is my husband who bore me; and it is I who am his mother.
And it is he who is my father and my lord.
It is he who is my force; What he desires, he says with reason.
I am in the process of becoming; yet I have borne a man as lord.

Now these through the will <...> The souls that were going to enter the modelled forms of the authorities were manifested to Sabaoth and his Christ. And regarding these, the holy voice said, "Multiply and improve! Be lord over all creatures." And it is they who were taken captive, according to their destinies, by the prime parent. And thus they were shut into the prisons of the modelled forms until the consummation of the age.

And at that time, the prime parent then rendered an opinion concerning man to those who were with him. Then each of them cast his sperm into the midst of the navel of the earth. Since that day, the seven rulers have fashioned man with his body resembling their body, but his likeness resembling the man that had appeared to them. His modelling took place by parts, one at a time. And their leader fashioned the brain and the nervous system. Afterwards, he appeared as prior to him. He became a soul-endowed man. And he was called Adam, that is, "father", according to the name of the one that existed before him.

And when they had finished Adam, he abandoned him as an inanimate vessel, since he had taken form like an abortion, in that no spirit was in him. Regarding this thing, when the chief ruler remembered the saying of Pistis, he was afraid lest the true man enter his modelled form and become its lord. For this reason he left his modelled form forty days without soul, and he withdrew and abandoned it. Now on the fortieth day, Sophia Zoe sent her breath into Adam, who had no soul. He began to move upon the ground. And he could not stand up.

Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed. They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?" It answered and said, "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work." When they heard, they glorified him, since he gave them respite from the fear and the anxiety in which they found themselves. Then they called that day "Rest", in as much as they had rested from toil. And when they saw that Adam could stand up, they were glad, and they took him and put him in Paradise. And they withdrew up to their heavens.

After the day of rest, Sophia sent her daughter Zoe, being called Eve, as an instructor, in order that she might make Adam, who had no soul, arise, so that those whom he should engender might become containers of light. When Eve saw her male counterpart prostrate, she had pity upon him, and she said, "Adam! Become alive! Arise upon the earth!" Immediately her word became accomplished fact. For Adam, having arisen, suddenly opened his eyes. When he saw her, he said, "You shall be called 'Mother of the Living'. For it is you who have given me life."

Then the authorities were informed that their modelled form was alive and had arisen, and they were greatly troubled. They sent seven archangels to see what had happened. They came to Adam. When they saw Eve talking to him, they said to one another, "What sort of thing is this luminous woman? For she resembles that likeness which appeared to us in the light. Now come, let us lay hold of her and cast her seed into her, so that when she becomes soiled she may not be able to ascend into her light. Rather, those whom she bears will be under our charge. But let us not tell Adam, for he is not one of us. Rather let us bring a deep sleep over him. And let us instruct him in his sleep to the effect that she came from his rib, in order that his wife may obey, and he may be lord over her."

Then Eve, being a force, laughed at their decision. She put mist into their eyes and secretly left her likeness with Adam. She entered the tree of knowledge and remained there. And they pursued her, and she revealed to them that she had gone into the tree and become a tree. Then, entering a great state of fear, the blind creatures fled.

Afterwards, when they had recovered from the daze, they came to Adam; and seeing the likeness of this woman with him, they were greatly disturbed, thinking it was she that was the true Eve. And they acted rashly; they came up to her and seized her and cast their seed upon her. They did so wickedly, defiling not only in natural ways but also in foul ways, defiling first the seal of her voice - that had spoken with them, saying, "What is it that exists before you?" - intending to defile those who might say at the consummation (of the age) that they had been born of the true man through verbal expression. And they erred, not knowing that it was their own body that they had defiled: it was the likeness that the authorities and their angels defiled in every way.

First she was pregnant with Abel, by the first ruler. And it was by the seven authorities and their angels that she bore the other offspring. And all this came to pass according to the forethought of the prime parent, so that the first mother might bear within her every seed, being mixed and being fitted to the fate of the universe and its configurations, and to Justice. A prearranged plan came into effect regarding Eve, so that the modelled forms of the authorities might become enclosures of the light, whereupon it would condemn them through their modelled forms.

Now the first Adam, (Adam) of Light, is spirit-endowed and appeared on the first day. The second Adam is soul-endowed and appeared on the sixth day, which is called Aphrodite. The third Adam is a creature of the earth, that is, the man of the law, and he appeared on the eighth day [...] the tranquility of poverty, which is called "The Day of the Sun" (Sunday). And the progeny of the earthly Adam became numerous and was completed, and produced within itself every kind of scientific information of the soul-endowed Adam. But all were in ignorance.

Next, let me say that once the rulers had seen him and the female creature who was with him erring ignorantly like beasts, they were very glad. When they learned that the immortal man was not going to neglect them, rather that they would even have to fear the female creature that had turned into a tree, they were disturbed, and said, "Perhaps this is the true man - this being who has brought a fog upon us and has taught us that she who was soiled is like him - and so we shall be conquered!"

Then the seven of them together laid plans. They came up to Adam and Eve timidly: they said to him, "The fruit of all the trees created for you in Paradise shall be eaten; but as for the tree of knowledge, control yourselves and do not eat from it. If you eat, you will die." Having imparted great fear to them, they withdrew up to their authorities.

Then came the wisest of all creatures, who was called Beast. And when he saw the likeness of their mother Eve he said to her, "What did God say to you? Was it 'Do not eat from the tree of knowledge'?" She said, "He said not only, 'Do not eat from it', but, 'Do not touch it, lest you die.'" He said to her, "Do not be afraid. In death you shall not die. For he knows that when you eat from it, your intellect will become sober and you will come to be like gods, recognizing the difference that obtains between evil men and good ones. Indeed, it was in jealousy that he said this to you, so that you would not eat from it."

Now Eve had confidence in the words of the instructor. She gazed at the tree and saw that it was beautiful and appetizing, and liked it; she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she gave some also to her husband, and he too ate it. Then their intellect became open. For when they had eaten, the light of knowledge had shone upon them. When they clothed themselves with shame, they knew that they were naked of knowledge. When they became sober, they saw that they were naked and became enamored of one another. When they saw that the ones who had modelled them had the form of beasts, they loathed them: they were very aware.

Then when the rulers knew that they had broken their commandments, they entered Paradise and came to Adam and Eve with earthquake and great threatening, to see the effect of the aid. Then Adam and Eve trembled greatly and hid under the trees in Paradise. Then the rulers did not know where they were and said, "Adam, where are you?" He said, "I am here, for through fear of you I hid, being ashamed." And they said to him ignorantly, "Who told you about the shame with which you clothed yourself? - unless you have eaten from that tree!" He said, "The woman whom you gave me - it is she that gave to me and I ate." Then they said to the latter, "What is this that you have done?" She answered and said, "It is the instructor who urged me on, and I ate."

Then the rulers came up to the instructor. Their eyes became misty because of him, and they could not do anything to him. They cursed him, since they were powerless. Afterwards, they came up to the woman and cursed her and her offspring. After the woman, they cursed Adam, and the land because of him, and the crops; and all things they had created, they cursed. They have no blessing. Good cannot result from evil.

From that day, the authorities knew that truly there was something mightier than they: they recognized only that their commandments had not been kept. Great jealousy was brought into the world solely because of the immortal man. Now when the rulers saw that their Adam had entered into an alien state of knowledge, they desired to test him, and they gathered together all the domestic animals and the wild beasts of the earth and the birds of heaven and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. When he saw them, he gave names to their creatures.

They became troubled because Adam had recovered from all the trials. They assembled and laid plans, and they said, "Behold Adam! He has come to be like one of us, so that he knows the difference between the light and the darkness. Now perhaps he will be deceived, as in the case of the Tree of Knowledge, and also will come to the Tree of Life and eat from it, and become immortal, and become lord, and despise us and disdain us and all our glory! Then he will denounce us along with our universe. Come, let us expel him from Paradise, down to the land from which he was taken, so that henceforth he might not be able to recognize anything better than we can." And so they expelled Adam from Paradise, along with his wife. And this deed that they had done was not enough for them. Rather, they were afraid. They went in to the Tree of Life and surrounded it with great fearful things, fiery living creatures called "Cheroubin", and they put a flaming sword in their midst, fearfully twirling at all times, so that no earthly being might ever enter that place.

Thereupon, since the rulers were envious of Adam they wanted to diminish their (viz., Adam's and Eve's) lifespans. They could not (, however,) because of fate, which had been fixed since the beginning. For to each had been allotted a lifespan of 1,000 years, according to the course of the luminous bodies. But although the rulers could not do this, each of the evildoers took away ten years. And all this lifespan (which remained) amounted to 930 years: and these are in pain and weakness and evil distraction. And so life has turned out to be, from that day until the consummation of the age.

Thus when Sophia Zoe saw that the rulers of the darkness had laid a curse upon her counterparts, she was indignant. And coming out of the first heaven with full power, she chased those rulers out of their heavens, and cast them down into the sinful world, so that there they should dwell, in the form of evil spirits (demons) upon the earth.

[...], so that in their world it might pass the thousand years in Paradise - a soul-endowed living creature called "phoenix". It kills itself and brings itself to life as a witness to the judgment against them, for they did wrong to Adam and his generation, unto the consummation of the age. There are [...] three men, and also his posterities, unto the consummation of the world: the spirit-endowed of eternity, and the soul-endowed, and the earthly. Likewise, the three phoenixes <in> Paradise - the first is immortal; the second lives 1,000 years; as for the third, it is written in the Sacred Book that it is consumed. So, too, there are three baptisms - the first is the spiritual, the second is by fire, the third is by water. Just as the phoenix appears as a witness concerning the angels, so the case of the water hydri in Egypt, which has been a witness to those going down into the baptism of a true man. The two bulls in Egypt possess a mystery, the sun and the moon, being a witness to Sabaoth: namely, that over them Sophia received the universe; from the day that she made the sun and the moon, she put a seal upon her heaven, unto eternity.

And the worm that has been born out of the phoenix is a human being as well. It is written (Ps 91:13 LXX) concerning it, "the just man will blossom like a phoenix". And the phoenix first appears in a living state, and dies, and rises again, being a sign of what has become apparent at the consummation of the age. It was only in Egypt that these great signs appeared - nowhere else - as an indication that it is like God's Paradise.

Let us return to the aforementioned rulers, so that we may offer some explanation of them. Now, when the seven rulers were cast down from their heavens onto the earth, they made for themselves angels, numerous, demonic, to serve them. And the latter instructed mankind in many kinds of error and magic and potions and worship of idols and spilling of blood and altars and temples and sacrifices and libations to all the spirits of the earth, having their coworker fate, who came into existence by the concord between the gods of injustice and justice.

And thus when the world had come into being, it distractedly erred at all times. For all men upon earth worshiped the spirits (demons) from the creation to the consummation - both the angels of righteousness and the men of unrighteousness. Thus did the world come to exist in distraction, in ignorance, and in a stupor. They all erred, until the appearance of the true man.

Let this suffice so far as the matter goes. Now we shall proceed to consideration of our world, so that we may accurately finish the description of its structure and management. Then it will become obvious how belief in the unseen realm, which has been apparent from creation down to the consummation of the age, was discovered.

I come, therefore, to the main points regarding the immortal man: I shall speak of all the beings that belong to him, explaining how they happen to be here.

When a multitude of human beings had come into existence, through the parentage of the Adam who had been fashioned, and out of matter, and when the world had already become full, the rulers were master over it - that is, they kept it restrained by ignorance. For what reason? For the following: since the immortal father knows that a deficiency of truth came into being amongst the eternal realms and their universe, when he wished to bring to naught the rulers of perdition through the creatures they had modelled, he sent your likenesses down into the world of perdition, namely, the blessed little innocent spirits. They are not alien to knowledge. For all knowledge is vested in one angel who appeared before them; he is not without power in the company of the father. And <he> gave them knowledge. Whenever they appear in the world of perdition, immediately and first of all they reveal the pattern of imperishability as a condemnation of the rulers and their forces. Thus when the blessed beings appeared in forms modelled by authorities, they were envied. And out of envy the authorities mixed their seed with them, in hopes of polluting them. They could not. Then when the blessed beings appeared in luminous form, they appeared in various ways. And each one of them, starting out in his land, revealed his (kind of) knowledge to the visible church constituted of the modelled forms of perdition. It (viz., the church) was found to contain all kinds of seed, because of the seed of the authorities that had mixed with it.

Then the Savior created [...] of them all - and the spirits of these are manifestly superior, being blessed and varying in election - and also (he created) many other beings, which have no king and are superior to everyone that was before them. Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy. Moreover, they are kings within the mortal domain, in that they are immortal. They will condemn the gods of chaos and their forces.

Now the Word that is superior to all beings was sent for this purpose alone: that he might proclaim the unknown. He said, "There is nothing hidden that is not apparent, and what has not been recognized will be recognized." And these were sent to make known what is hidden, and the seven authorities of chaos and their impiety. And thus they were condemned to death.

So when all the perfect appeared in the forms modelled by the rulers, and when they revealed the incomparable truth, they put to shame all the wisdom of the gods. And their fate was found to be a condemnation. And their force dried up. Their lordship was dissolved. Their forethought became emptiness, along with their glory.

Before the consummation of the age, the whole place will shake with great thundering. Then the rulers will be sad, [...] their death. The angels will mourn for their mankind, and the demons will weep over their seasons, and their mankind will wail and scream at their death. Then the age will begin, and they will be disturbed. Their kings will be intoxicated with the fiery sword, and they will wage war against one another, so that the earth is intoxicated with bloodshed. And the seas will be disturbed by those wars. Then the sun will become dark, and the moon will cause its light to cease. The stars of the sky will cancel their circuits. And a great clap of thunder will come out of a great force that is above all the forces of chaos, where the firmament of the woman is situated. Having created the first product, she will put away the wise fire of intelligence and clothe herself with witless wrath. Then she will pursue the gods of chaos, whom she created along with the prime parent. She will cast them down into the abyss. They will be obliterated because of their wickedness. For they will come to be like volcanoes and consume one another until they perish at the hand of the prime parent. When he has destroyed them, he will turn against himself and destroy himself until he ceases to exist.

And their heavens will fall one upon the next and their forces will be consumed by fire. Their eternal realms, too, will be overturned. And his heaven will fall and break in two. His [...] will fall down upon the [...] support them; they will fall into the abyss, and the abyss will be overturned.

The light will [...] the darkness and obliterate it: it will be like something that has never been. And the product to which the darkness had been posterior will dissolve. And the deficiency will be plucked out by the root (and thrown) down into the darkness. And the light will withdraw up to its root. And the glory of the unbegotten will appear. And it will fill all the eternal realm.

When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known.

http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/origin.html

This is part of the Gnostic writings, does it sound like has anything to do with Christianity? Should it be included in the Bible as well? It's part of the same set of writings that the Gospels of Mary Magdalene, Thomas and Judas belong to.

The funny thing is why do these folks want to be seen as Christian? They totally disagree with every criteria of Christianity, it's a psychological aberration if you ask me.

Why don't they just worship God the way they see fit and leave Christians alone? If their dogma is so worthy and the Bible is not why do they think they have to pose as Christians to win converts? Why do think they they need to have their writing included with ours?

Can't they stand on their own merit?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: why is our culture so obsessed with homosexuality? or more specfically, why is this forum so obsessed with homosexuality?

Take a look at who made the majority of those threads. I'm tired of talking about it, personally. If someone wants to live their life like that, I have nothing against them. But I don't want it forced on me and my beliefs.

Here's an interesting article I read the other day that I think is pertinent to the subject.

http://www.alainsnewsletter.com/article.php?id=167