Political Crossfire Forums

[superchick]

Im not a Jehovah's witness, but I do believe that it is.

I believe so because you should not pledge or swear allegiance to any inanimate object, or even your country, because it is not infaliable. Only oaths like that should be made in a church, and commanded by God, like marriage, IMO.

If the words were changed, would you pledge allegiance, to the cross? We all understand what the symbolic refrence of the cross is, but we you would be pledging your allegiance to the cross...

[SilveryMinnow]

You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".

[superchick]

SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God". That was added as a side note, but even so, if I changed it to be even more religious, would you

Pledge allegiance, to the cross
and the united _______ (whatever denomination) of America
One church, indivisible with liberty and justice for all...

or however you would think it would go.
I think what my real issue is pledging allegiance to any symbol, whatever it is.

As far as ideology and nationalism...I don't think we all share the same thing, and where it is going, I would be ashamed to say that I believed in the ideology of the leadership of this country today, so that has a part in why I feel the way I do also. I don't know if I could align myself with any nationalism before God though, no mattter what nation it was..

[SilveryMinnow]

There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.

You are right, God transcends all nations and laws of men. We can only seek his will through his word, and look to him for guidance. We cannot however trust any Man (or Woman) to represent the exact word of the Lord.

When Jesus returns, every eye shall see him, but also beware the false prophet that the AntiChrist will attempt to impersonate the Lord.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Jas 5:12 -
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

It's a hard question. Undoubtably political systems are surely the work of human hands. We shouldn't rely on them, but on God.

But then our blessings in this country are given by God. I certainly won't swear alliegance to a secular or non-Christian nation, although I will follow it's laws.

I'm undecided, as of yet, how this stands in reference to me.

[Snarf]

SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".
Jesus would never have said the pledge, as no entity came before God. 'Render unto'...

[superchick]

SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.

But in the pledge of allegiance, we do, to a flag, and the proper way to do this is face the flag and put your right hand over your heart.

[cap'n queasy]

Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".
Jesus would never have said the pledge.

Possibly so.

[superchick]

Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".
Jesus would never have said the pledge, as no entity came before God. 'Render unto'... It scares me that I would agree with you in the Christianity forum.

[Snarf]

superchick wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.

But in the pledge of allegiance, we do, to a flag, and the proper way to do this is face the flag and put your right hand over your heart.
The original pledge was, "I pledge allegiance to my flag...'.

[Snarf]

superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".
Jesus would never have said the pledge, as no entity came before God. 'Render unto'... It scares me that I would agree with you in the Christianity forum.
It doesn't pay to be ignorant of your enemy's faith. You tend to lose that way as current world events clearly indicate. My war is not with Jesus, but with those who pretend to follow Him, all the while supporting what He did and would not support...

[superchick]

Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: You are also swearing to serve along with others the ideology and nationalism that is binding to Americans and the Creator.

I.E. One nation, "Under God".
Jesus would never have said the pledge, as no entity came before God. 'Render unto'... It scares me that I would agree with you in the Christianity forum.
It doesn't pay to be ignorant of your enemy's faith. You tend to lose that way as current world events clearly indicate. My war is not with Jesus, but with those who pretend to follow Him, all the while supporting what He did and would not support... Glad we clarified things.

[thintheherd]

Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.

But in the pledge of allegiance, we do, to a flag, and the proper way to do this is face the flag and put your right hand over your heart.
The original pledge was, "I pledge allegiance to my flag...'.
Actually, it is... "I pledge allegiance to THE flag.."

May not have any significance beyond the country in which you are pledging, but worth pointing out nonetheless. Patriotism with religion is not a crime as some would lead us to believe.

[psholtz]

SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.
I would say the laws upon which America was built were decidedly post-Christian.. They bear the imprint of Christian thought, but Christianity (as a "religion") had managed to prove itself a more or less collossal failure by the time America was founded (and it still does, to this day). The Founders of this nation were keenly aware of this (Christian) failure, and it weighed very heavily upon their hearts and minds as they set about their work of creating the new nation.

In many ways, it's almost easier to discern Islamic thought in America's Constitution and other founding documents, than it is to find strictly "Christian" thought .. but then again, what is Islam if not a post-Christian approach to religion and philosophy?

[Gilbert1908]

psholtz wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.
I would say the laws upon which America was built were decidedly post-Christian.. They bear the imprint of Christian thought, but Christianity (as a "religion") had managed to prove itself a more or less collossal failure by the time America was founded (and it still does, to this day). The Founders of this nation were keenly aware of this (Christian) failure, and it weighed very heavily upon their hearts and minds as they set about their work of creating the new nation.

In many ways, it's almost easier to discern Islamic thought in America's Constitution and other founding documents, than it is to find strictly "Christian" thought .. but then again, what is Islam if not a post-Christian approach to religion and philosophy?

Virtually all of the men of this time and place were mainstream Christians. There were a couple of notable exceptions, Jefferson and Franklin being a couple, Adams was a Congregatonalist turned Unitarian but 95% or more were devout Christians of one sect or another. It is incomprehensible to remove Jesus as the most influencial philosopher even among the non Christians.

To clarify you would agree that the most famous deist, Jefferson, was profoundly influenced by the life and philosophy of Jesus, even though he did see him as God.

But is seems to me a distinction without a difference to suggest that not "Christianity" but, Jesus had a profound and shaping influence, since while it is precise it has no effect on the result. If I deny the institution but live by the philosophy how am I any less influenced? Certainly Jefferson himself made his interest and belief in the philosophy of Jesus clear, time after time? He just did not believe Jesus was God.

I believe at one point Jefferson, no lack of ego, makes the case that he (Jefferson) is in his way more a "Christian" because he truly understands what Jesus's philosophy meant.

But the point in any case is that Christianity was the overwhelming religous influence of all of these men, even the non-Christians like Jefferson, simply because it was the dominant cultural force of the time.

It does not follow that this is a Christian nation, or that these men wanted the USA to be so, they DID NOT. They passionatly believed that if God did not require belief in Himself how could any government.

[Snarf]

thintheherd wrote: Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: There is no national religion of America, but its laws are founded on Christian, "Natural Law." We do not pledge to an icon, but to each other.

But in the pledge of allegiance, we do, to a flag, and the proper way to do this is face the flag and put your right hand over your heart.
The original pledge was, "I pledge allegiance to my flag...'.
Actually, it is... "I pledge allegiance to THE flag.."


It is now but wasn't then. That's what 'original' means. There was no 'God' in there as well of course.

Those who wish to serve both God and the State, need to decide which Master they are going to walk through hell for. Jesus' choice was quite clear...

[StarCross]

superchick wrote: Im not a Jehovah's witness, but I do believe that it is.

I believe so because you should not pledge or swear allegiance to any inanimate object, or even your country, because it is not infaliable. Only oaths like that should be made in a church, and commanded by God, like marriage, IMO.

If the words were changed, would you pledge allegiance, to the cross? We all understand what the symbolic refrence of the cross is, but we you would be pledging your allegiance to the cross...

Happy Easter superchick,

Here is my beef with your assertion. The greek word for idol is eidolon which is defined as follows:

eidolon primarily "a phantom or likeness" (from eidos, "an appearance," lit., "that which is seen"), or "an idea, fancy," denotes in the NT
(a) "an idol," an image to represent a false god, Acts_7:41; 1_Cor_12:2; Rev_9:20;
(b) "the false god" worshipped in an image, Acts_15:20; Rom_2:22; 1_Cor_8:4,7; 1_Cor_10:19; 2_Cor_6:16; 1_Thess_1:9; 1_John_5:21.

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1441

The question you are asking is whether or not pledging allegiance to the flag is a form of idolatry or false god worship. Since nobody I know considers pledging allegiance to the flag to be worshipping a false God, I would have to say the answer to your question is no. The definition of pledge is as follows:

Main Entry: 2pledge
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): pledged; pledg·ing
1 : to make a pledge of; especially : PAWN
2 : to drink to the health of
3 : to bind by a pledge
4 : to promise the performance of by a pledge

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

There is nothing there about worshipping false idols as if they were God or a god. When one pledges allegiance to the flag, they are promising to perform a duty. Let's look at the pledge itself:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
one nation under God
indivisible with liberty
and justice for all

We are pledging our allegiance to the flag and what it represents. What is the definition of allegiance?

Main Entry: al·le·giance
Pronunciation: &-'lE-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English allegeaunce, modification of Middle French ligeance, from Old French, from lige liege
1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause
synonym see FIDELITY

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=allegiance

Again, there is nothing about worshipping idols as if they were God or a god. The apostle Paul writes to the Romans that we are supposed to subject ourselves to the governing authorities. Why is that?:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; (Romans 13:1-3)

Peace and Happy Easter,
StarCross

[Saf]

superchick wrote: I believe so because you should not pledge or swear allegiance to any inanimate object, or even your country, because it is not infaliable. Only oaths like that should be made in a church, and commanded by God, like marriage, IMO.
Aren't the church and your potential spouse fallible? Any of these institutions can easily get between a person and God.

[superchick]

Saf wrote: superchick wrote: I believe so because you should not pledge or swear allegiance to any inanimate object, or even your country, because it is not infaliable. Only oaths like that should be made in a church, and commanded by God, like marriage, IMO.
Aren't the church and your potential spouse fallible? Any of these institutions can easily get between a person and God. I don't pledge my allegiance to my church, and don't believe I would do that either, or would I pledge allegiance to a cross. As far as my potential spouse, you say vows under God, and it is a marriage. I wouldn't marry the cross or the country either and God doesn't have rules regarding the cross, surely, and although he does say to follow the rules of the country, I don't know how he feels about a pledge of allegiance and the ritual that surrounds it, which I guess is why this debate is opened.

[Gilbert1908]

superchick wrote: Im not a Jehovah's witness, but I do believe that it is.

I believe so because you should not pledge or swear allegiance to any inanimate object, or even your country, because it is not infaliable. Only oaths like that should be made in a church, and commanded by God, like marriage, IMO.

If the words were changed, would you pledge allegiance, to the cross? We all understand what the symbolic refrence of the cross is, but we you would be pledging your allegiance to the cross...


If you are not willing to pledge fidelity or allegiance to any infallible entity don't plan on getting married.