Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Biblical scholars agree that the fulfilled prophecy that we can see outlined in actual history is simply amazing. That leaves us with an interesting question; what about the prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled? Can we see any prophecy in the book of Daniel that is being fulfilled before our very eyes? Well, that’s always debatable, I happen to agree with the famous scientist and Biblical scholar of the seventeenth century Sir Isaac Newton who said,
“God gave the prophecies, not to gratify men's curiosity by enabling them to fore know things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and His own providence, not the interpreters, be thereby manifested to the world.”

That being said, I do feel like some events in history that are unfolding before our eyes, do line up with prophecy of Daniel portrayed about the end times. The one that I’m going to examine at this time can be found in Daniel chapter twelve verse four,
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”


The book of Daniel, written around 537 B.C., is an amazing example of the authenticity of God’s word and how the recorded information, that the Holy Spirit inspired to be written, can be seen acted out in history to the very detail. In fact, they are detailed enough to cause many skeptics to try and date the book at a time following many of the events prophesied in order to explain away any metaphysical aspects of the text. The rise of the Medo-Persian Empire, conquests of Alexander the Great and even the details involved in the desecration of the Temple of God by Antiochus Epiphanies can all be seen in the text of the book of Daniel. It’s easy to see why, someone who is at odds with facing the facing the truth about their responsibility to a Holy God, would want to discredit this Biblical book. Unfortunately, for the skeptic, creditable sources date the book well before the events prophesied took place and their claims can be easily disproven with some honest research. But, that isn’t the purpose of this post, so I will not be going into detail on that at this time.

As I meditated on the words written in Daniel, the more I realized how many possible layers could be imbedded in this prophecy. My first impression, of Daniel 12:4, is that it is a prophecy that foretells the present explosion of technologies that have revolutionized our capabilities for world travel and communication. Recent times have shown an unnatural growth in the development of new technologies in comparison to the whole of human history. The mode of land travel had remained constant, with the horse drawn carriage being the best means since as far back as we have records, until relatively recent times. Transportation aids, such as the automobile, diesel powered locomotives, airplanes, and even rockets, have increased the distance man can travel thousands fold. The same can be said about communication also. Communication methods remained constant throughout history with word of mouth and written letters being the standard means. Developments, in the last century, have made our ability to communicate information at a rate that it is virtually impossible for someone to even absorb the amount available at the touch of a button. The amount of knowledge that is available and the ease of accessing is simply astounding. It is possible for anyone with access to a personal computer, and an internet connection, to have more information at his or her fingertips than someone with the best education and recourses of ten years ago.

The prophecy, in chapter twelve verse four, could possibly be just as simple as I’ve explained above. It exhibits a pattern that could point to the fulfillment of an end time prophecy, but I’m rarely satisfied with simple answers, especially dealing with something that has been given to us by God in the book of Daniel. Again we have an insight from Sir Isaac Newton, who was able see that in the end times, there would be people who through the record of historical events would understand the importance of a literal interpretation of scripture.
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”
This quote might not seem to be all that insightful to us now because we’re living in those times, but in Newton’s time it wasn’t common for scripture to be taken literally, an allegorical interpretation was usually accepted by the typical Christian. Newton had noticed something that I too had overlooked at first impression of this scripture. Although my first attempt to understand the verse was focused on the increase of knowledge and the increased ability to move to and fro, I had basically ignored the part about sealing up the book. Giving this more thought, it pointed me in the direction of analyzing the prophecy of increasing knowledge and moving to and fro, in regards to the book the actual prophecy is contained. That the prophecy likely refers to the increasing knowledge of the book of Daniel and that many would run to and fro with their interpretations of the visions contained in the book. That as history unfolded, men would continue to investigate and study of the book and would see the prophecy fulfilled after the fact and have their knowledge increased in God’s own time. The people, in the end times, would be able to increase in the knowledge contained in the book of Daniel, because they have a recorded history to compare the prophecy to.


We can see this demonstrated in the prophecies, contained in Daniel chapter nine, in regards to Jesus being the Messiah. When one analyzes the text and compares it with recorded history, one can clearly see that the historical event of the decree to restore the city of Jerusalem coincide and fulfill the first half of the prophecy in this chapter of Daniel. This includes, the amount of time it took to complete the second Temple, and the recorded event of a man who claimed to be the Messiah being executed. It wasn’t until these events had taken place that the knowledge of the book had increased, due to men analyzing the texts. The same is true with all of the prophecy that is considered to have been fulfilled.

At this point, I seem to have two different interpretations for the same verse, but that might not necessarily be the case. I’m of the opinion that what often appear to be two different interpretations turns out to be both interpretations being true at the same time, and, in fact, be components to each other. The ability to understand the book of Daniel has been made possible by the observation of history. Also, this understanding is greatly enhanced by the ability to communicate faster and easier and spread the information throughout the world, to different scholars, regarding the history that has been observed. It seems to me, that a combination of an increased advance in technology and an understanding of God’s word is something that is happening in present times. It has been calculated that more than 90% of all scientist who have ever lived are alive today! It’s the manner that knowledge, and the means of communicating this knowledge, has increased in such a relatively short time that causes me to think that this is a prophecy that is being fulfilled in our lifetimes.

The book of Daniel is an amazing book of prophecy indeed. Skeptics have scoffed at it for as long as it has been available for public eyes to read. Yet, the skeptic is left with egg on his face every time. One example of this happened in regards to the verse in question, Daniel 12:4. When Sir Isaac Newton read the verse, he was left with the impression that according to the Bible man was going to discover technology that would enable them to travel at a minimum 50 mph. This speed was what would be necessary for man to be able to travel from country to country, in an unprecedented manner according to Newton’s calculations at the time. Some eighty years later, after reading this statement by Newton, the French atheist François-Marie Arouet de Voltaire (1694-1778) scoffed at Newton’s commentary and said,
“See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man! Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of 30 or 40 m.p.h. Has he forgotten that if man would travel at this rate he would be suffocated? His heart would stand still!”
During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Biblical scholars agree that the fulfilled prophecy that we can see outlined in actual history is simply amazing.
Could you cite some examples of this please?

By which I mean, both prophecies that were fulfilled, and the Biblical scholars we "agree" that this is simple "amazing".. When citing prophecies that have been fulfilled, be sure and reference chapter and verse as well. That way we can see to what extent poetic liberties are being taken w/ what's actually recorded in the Bible..

[psholtz]

John wrote: During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.
We now know that speed is somewhat relative, and that it's acceleration that may (or may not) "suffocate" a man .. in fact, Voltaire's instinct is dead-on correct, even if his numbers are a bit off (as is his confusion of "velocity" w/ "acceleration", something that that he probably inherited from Aristotle). Try undergoing 10G of acceleration, and chances are you'll probably "suffocate", as Voltaire "predicted", too.. On the other hand, you can walk around a passenger jet moving at just under the speed of sound, and -- if the plane is not undergoing any acceleration -- it's the smoothest ride you'll ever be on.

Aristotle was the one who first proposed (to my knowledge) that to force is proportional to velocity, and it was Newton who destroyed this world view by pointing out that F=ma (force is proportional to acceleration). I'm surprised that Voltaire didn't catch this, although Voltaire was never all that mathematically inclined. Besides, noone is perfect. There are many things Voltaire said which I don't agree w/..

[mattwa33193]

John wrote:
“See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man! Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of 30 or 40 m.p.h. Has he forgotten that if man would travel at this rate he would be suffocated? His heart would stand still!”
During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.

Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/03/110603-3.html\


This is very similar to the whole Nostradamus thing. Make a sufficiently vague prophesy and then sit back and enjoy while people keep finding the truth in it for then next 2000 years.

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote:
“See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man! Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of 30 or 40 m.p.h. Has he forgotten that if man would travel at this rate he would be suffocated? His heart would stand still!”
During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.

Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/03/110603-3.html\


This is very similar to the whole Nostradamus thing. Make a sufficiently vague prophesy and then sit back and enjoy while people keep finding the truth in it for then next 2000 years.
That's a very good point..

I wonder how fast Columbus' ships had to have sailed to cross the Atlantic in the time they did.. I suppose (at least) 40 MPH is a reasonable guess..

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The people, in the end times, would be able to increase in the knowledge contained in the book of Daniel, because they have a recorded history to compare the prophecy to.

That's what I believe the meaning of that particular passage is.

[SilveryMinnow]

Im typing on a increase in my knowledge.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

I don't believe Voltaire had access to that particular resource. And he was no scientist, I doubt he had any idea how fast horses can run.

But Charles Hoy Fort certainly quoted Voltaire as the source of this quote.

[mattwa33193]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

I don't believe Voltaire had access to that particular resource. And he was no scientist, I doubt he had any idea how fast horses can run.

But Charles Hoy Fort certainly quoted Voltaire as the source of this quote.

Since Fort was born about 100 years later, I'll take that with a grain of salt.

I believe it would be more important for Messr. Voltaire to have access to horses, which he certainly did since they were the primary means of local transportation for his entire lifetime, than it would be for him to have access to Texas A&M university or be a scientist. One wouldn't have to survive a ride of more than a mile to realize that nothing bad happened at 30 MPH.

[cap'n queasy]

He would have to have some way to know how fast they could run.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: Biblical scholars agree that the fulfilled prophecy that we can see outlined in actual history is simply amazing.

only in the minds of brainwashed christian fundies. even the supposedly best/most accurate prophecy, the tyre prophecy, is pure bollocks.

how anyone can believe in the bible based on prophecies is beyond me.

[cap'n queasy]

The most detailed prophecy IMHO is that of the coming of the Greek empire of Alexander the Great and the splitting of this empire into four parts, one of which was ruled by Antiochus Epiphanes and which describes this man in great detail perfectly is found in Daniel 11. But all Bible prophecy is extremely accurate

How anyone cannot see these prophecies are detailed, accurate and proven to be written before these events is beyond me. Willful ignorance is the only explanation I have for it.

[mattwa33193]

cap'n queasy wrote: The most detailed prophecy IMHO is that of the coming of the Greek empire of Alexander the Great and the splitting of this empire into four parts, one of which was ruled by Antiochus Epiphanes and which describes this man in great detail perfectly is found in Daniel 11. But all Bible prophecy is extremely accurate

How anyone cannot see these prophecies are detailed, accurate and proven to be written before these events is beyond me. Willful ignorance is the only explanation I have for it.

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Many shall run to and fro? Does this refer to people flying back and forth across the Atlantic? Or the the multiple Crusades against the Middle East? How many constitutes many? How far and how long do they have to run? This is what I mean by vague. It leaves nearly everything up to the interpretation of the reader. If you claim it is specific, then the people would have to actually be running back and forth between 2 points. I doubt there is a time in history when that hasn't gone on, and it probably happens less now than at any time in history.

Knowldege shall increase is a great one. Knowledge has increased daily since we discovered fire, and the rate has accelerated periodically since we started writing things down. Again, this could be any time.

No matter when you read this, it could be interpreted as true. According to the post, Newton thought it was true over 200 years ago. That's the thing that all prohesies that are thought to be true have in common - no matter when you read them, they can be interpreted as referring to that specific moment in time.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Many shall run to and fro?

Actually I believe the NASB gives a better translation for the modern user than the KJV does.

Quote: 12:4 -"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

If you notice the beginning of the sentence this fragment belongs to is specifically about "concealing these words and sealing the book up" (adding this mysterious book of prophecy to scripture) ie it is in reference to studying this and other books of the scriptures. I believe it refers to folks living in the period after the restoration of Israel going "back and forth" in studying the scriptures and working out the answers to various theological questions by comparing the many different relevant passages to any given subject found in the various books contained in the scriptures. In this way we can increase our knowledge of what to expect.

I personally don't think it refers to better transportation technology, although many folks think this is what it means.

[mattwa33193]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Many shall run to and fro?

Actually I believe the NASB gives a better translation for the modern user than the KJV does.

Quote: 12:4 -"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

If you notice the beginning of the sentence this fragment belongs to is specifically about "concealing these words and sealing the book up" (adding this mysterious book of prophecy to scripture) ie it is in reference to studying this and other books of the scriptures. I believe it refers to folks living in the period after the restoration of Israel going "back and forth" in studying the scriptures and working out the answers to various theological questions by comparing the many different relevant passages to any given subject found in the various books contained in the scriptures. In this way we can increase our knowledge of what to expect.

I personally don't think it refers to better transportation technology, although many folks think this is what it means.

Thanks for that - good post.

But it kind of proves my point... anyone reading it can come away with an interpretation that appears to be valid at any time. Yours seems very well thought out, but then I would expect Newton's to be pretty well thought out as well.

[cap'n queasy]

Well, can I suggest you read the scriptures before you make your mind up. It wasn't all that long ago (about 2 years) I was the guy making rude comments about the Bible and Christianity on this forum. And I made these guys look like lightweights.

I got to liking this one guy on this forum for some reason and he convinced me to have an objective look at this stuff. And well, here I am. Specifically, I would suggest learning something about Antiochus Epiphanes and then reading Daniel 11. It is not ambiguous at all. In fact, it is so highly detailed proponents of German Higher Criticism insisted that it was written after these events, but various findings have proven that this is not so.

When Alexander the Great was shown this scripture by Nehemiah, I believe, when his army was camped outside the gates of Jerusalem he recognized his career in the prophecy and was so amazed he spared the city the sacking he had planned for it. That is merely one anomolous fact of history connected with these prophecies.

Isaiah named Cyrus the Great as the future conqueror of Babylon by name a couple of hundred years before his birth (Isaiah 44 and 45). Cyrus was so impressed when Daniel showed him the book of Isaiah after he sacked Babylon he restored the Israelites to their land and funded the rebuilding of Jerusalem. He even recorded this decree on a stele which is now in the British Museum, if I am not mistaken.

You should also read Isaac Newton's commentary on Daniel, he wrote over a million words of commentary on Bible prophecy, more than any other subject he wrote about. It's quite detailed.

I agree that stuff like Nostradamus is spurious, but Bible prophecy is a whole other kettle of fish. I truely believe it is real. And I started off trying to debunk it.

[thefranzkafkafront]

I think you'll find that most bibical scholars of any repute will hold it in high possibillity that the gospel stories were edited to deliberatly fit the prophies in daniel, isiah and the like.

You may also want to note that Jesus dosent fit any of the Jewish models of a messiah, and no where in the prophies to my knowledge dose it require the messiah to be divine, messiah mearly means 'annoited'. As far as i know none of the prophets refer to the comming of a 'son of god'. Infact i belive the only mention of the phrase with any connitatios of divinity is Daniel 3:25.

As for the usage of the son of man, Geza Vermes is a very intresting person to read up on this, and ill have a trawl for some of his material of the useage of son of man in spoken arameic. But in the o.t itself, yes the usage in Daniel is indeed predicting somthing, but then look at the usage in Ezekiel, he appears to be using it to refer to himself.

[John]

Quote: I wonder how fast Columbus' ships had to have sailed to cross the Atlantic in the time they did.. I suppose (at least) 40 MPH is a reasonable guess..


That's funny.

[mattwa33193]

psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote:
“See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man! Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of 30 or 40 m.p.h. Has he forgotten that if man would travel at this rate he would be suffocated? His heart would stand still!”
During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.

Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/03/110603-3.html\


This is very similar to the whole Nostradamus thing. Make a sufficiently vague prophesy and then sit back and enjoy while people keep finding the truth in it for then next 2000 years.
That's a very good point..

I wonder how fast Columbus' ships had to have sailed to cross the Atlantic in the time they did.. I suppose (at least) 40 MPH is a reasonable guess..

It actually works out to about 2.5 MPH average - 4100 miles (approx), 10 weeks or 1680 hours.... I know those figures aren't dead accurate, but you get the drift.

No knowing what speeds the ships might have reached during the voyage.

[thefranzkafkafront]

mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote:
“See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man! Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of 30 or 40 m.p.h. Has he forgotten that if man would travel at this rate he would be suffocated? His heart would stand still!”
During our trip to the moon, man would exceed a speed 12 times faster than a .22 rifle bullet travels. Needless to say, Mr. Voltaire was wrong and Newton’s impression to trust the word of God, no matter what the science of his time said, was right.

Voltaire would never have said that. Horses can run at up to 40 MPH, according to Texas A&M University.

http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/03/110603-3.html\


This is very similar to the whole Nostradamus thing. Make a sufficiently vague prophesy and then sit back and enjoy while people keep finding the truth in it for then next 2000 years.
That's a very good point..

I wonder how fast Columbus' ships had to have sailed to cross the Atlantic in the time they did.. I suppose (at least) 40 MPH is a reasonable guess..

It actually works out to about 2.5 MPH average - 4100 miles (approx), 10 weeks or 1680 hours.... I know those figures aren't dead accurate, but you get the drift.

No knowing what speeds the ships might have reached during the voyage.

In strong winds a large ship can reach 30+ mph. The limiting factor is of course the wind speed, and size of the hull.

(some sailing experience)