Political Crossfire Forums

[JimT]

Hi Malaich, Duchifas -

I have a question concerning the "famous" Curse of Jeconiah. King Jehoiachin of Judah did that which was evil in the eyes of the L-rd, for which the consequences are spelled out in the Hebrew Bible (Jeremiah 22:24-30):

Jeremiah 22:24-30 wrote: Jeremiah 22:24-30 – (24) "As I live," says the L-rd, "even if Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were a signet [ (hotam)] upon My right hand, I would tear you off. (25) And I will give you to the hand of those who seek your life, and to the hand of those whose face you fear, to the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and to the hand of the Chaldeans. (26) And I will cast you out, and your mother who bore you, to another country, where you were not born; and there shall you die. (27) But to the land to which they desire to return, there shall they not return. (28) Is this man Coniah a despised broken vessel? An object that no one cares for? Why are they cast out, he and his seed, and banished to a land which they know not? (29) O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the L-rd." (30) Thus says the L-rd: "Inscribe this man [Coniah] childless, a man who will not prosper [ (lo-yitzlah)] in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

This decree known as the Curse on Jeconiah is described in the last verse of the passage, Jeremiah 22:30. So far, so "good".

However, while reading Yirmiyahu 36:30, it seemed to me that the curse didn't start during Jeconiah's reign, but during his father's (Jehoiakim/Eliakim) reign :? See:

Yirmiyahu 36:30 wrote: 30. Therefore, so said the L-rd concerning Jehoiakim the king of Judah; He shall have no one sitting on the throne of David, and his corpse shall be cast to the heat by day and to the frost at night.

Of course, I might very well be mistaken here, but how come? I've always been told that the Curse started with Jeconiah -- not with his father Jehoiakim. That would explain why it is called "the Curse of Jeconiah." However, Yirmiyahu 36:30 clearly states concerning Jehoiakim, the King of Judah, that "he (Jehoiakim) shall have no one sitting on the throne of David". :-| .
Malaich, Duchifas, can you help me out here.


Thanks!
JimT

[JimT]

Recently I received this answer on another forum:

Menachem wrote:
there are two possibilities when coming to this particular situation.

1) there is the possibility of a scribal error involved in the writing of this chapter, the scribe might have intended to writed Yehoiachin but wrote Yehoiakim by accident, which I dont think is what happened here. see reason 2.

or

2) the Curse did start with Yeconiah/Yehoiachin and Yehoiakim was told prior to the curse being enacted. The reason for me saying this is that the verse tells Yehoiakim that "None from him will sit on the throne of David...." And in the very next chapter we have it reporting that Zedekiah, Coniah's uncle, replaced Coniah son of Yehoiakim in verse 1. In my opinion it is HaShem who tells Yehoiakim what will happen to his descendants after he is dead and gone. Becasue soon after Yeconiah became king he was removed by HaShem the implication of "non from you shall sit on the throne of David...." seems to indicate and implicate that "none from you will sit on the throne of David [for very long]...."

Hope that helps.

Shalom


JimT

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: 30. Therefore, so said the L-rd concerning Jehoiakim the king of Judah; He shall have no one sitting on the throne of David, and his corpse shall be cast to the heat by day and to the frost at night.

You have to consider if this was the moment of application of the curse or rather just a prophetic statement.

[Mailech]

Well it seems to me, without looking very deep into this, that Jeremiah's prophecy regarding Yehoyakim and Yehoyakhin are both valid, and one does not detract from the other. They were both wicked men, who earned G-d's wrath. I would therefore agree with the 2nd answer from Menachem. That Yehoyakim did not have any real decendants on David's throne, since he was a puppet and for only 3 months.

BTW, what is that other forum?

[JimT]

Hi Mailech and Cap'n queasy,

cap'n queasy wrote: You have to consider if this was the moment of application of the curse or rather just a prophetic statement.
&
Mailech wrote: Well it seems to me, without looking very deep into this, that Jeremiah's prophecy regarding Yehoyakim and Yehoyakhin are both valid, and one does not detract from the other. They were both wicked men, who earned G-d's wrath. I would therefore agree with the 2nd answer from Menachem. That Yehoyakim did not have any real decendants on David's throne, since he was a puppet and for only 3 months.
But why is the curse called "the Curse of Jeconiah" and not "the Curse of Jehoiakim"?

Mailech wrote: BTW, what is that other forum?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=75528

JimT

[cap'n queasy]

Because the curse was placed on Jeconiah, not Jehoiakim.

[Mailech]

I would say that the curse was placed on both, on that line of David's House.

The truth is I have never heard of it before as refered to as the curse of Jeconiah. It seems to be that G-d made decrees on both because of each of thier actions.

[JimT]

Hi cap'n queasy,

cap'n queasy wrote: Because the curse was placed on Jeconiah, not Jehoiakim.

Yirmiyahu 36:30 concerning Jehoiakim: "... He (Jehoiakim) shall have no one sitting on the throne of David..."

Yirmiyahu 22:24-30 concerning Jeconiah: "... for no man of his (Jeconiah's) seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David ...."

What is the difference? To me both look the same. I might very well be wrong, but it seems to me that the same curse was placed on Jehoiakim first.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: He (Jehoiakim) shall have no one sitting on the throne of David...

A prophetic statement that is true, because of the curse that was to be placed on Jeconiah. But not the actual curse itself.

Quote: for no man of his (Jeconiah's) seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David ...."
The actual curse itself.

Events don't happen because they are prophesied they are prophesied because they are going to happen.

This one happened because of a curse on Jeconiah. .

See what I mean?

[John]

JimT wrote: Hi cap'n queasy,

cap'n queasy wrote: Because the curse was placed on Jeconiah, not Jehoiakim.

Yirmiyahu 36:30 concerning Jehoiakim: "... He (Jehoiakim) shall have no one sitting on the throne of David..."

Yirmiyahu 22:24-30 concerning Jeconiah: "... for no man of his (Jeconiah's) seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David ...."

What is the difference? To me both look the same. I might very well be wrong, but it seems to me that the same curse was placed on Jehoiakim first.

Well, we both know that they did in fact have sons on the throne. I personally believe that the comment is that the Messiah wouldn't be a blood heir of Jeconiah because man is sinful. It was just another revelation of God's plan. It seems that that the curse of sin is passed on to each child through the father.....I personally believe that this is an insight to the necessity of the virgin birth of Messiah. You can reject Jesus as Messiah if you want but I believe that it's intellectually dishonest to deny that the scriptures proclaim a virgin birth as a sign of the true Messiah.

[cap'n queasy]

Well, none of them prospered, sitting on the throne of David. Which is the actual wording, not that there wouldn't be any.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, none of them prospered, sitting on the throne of David. Which is the actual wording, not that there wouldn't be any.

I'm not disagreeing with ya. :wink:

[Duchifas]

Nice avatar, John. Got me real confuzzzed -- a guy grabbin another guy, ya know....I thought you went Brokeback or something. :!oops:



;)

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Nice avatar, John. Got me real confuzzzed -- a guy grabbin another guy, ya know....I thought you went Brokeback or something. :!oops:



;)

:lol:

Not hardly.



:-D

[Duchifas]

Who's the dude behind?