Political Crossfire Forums

leftneckredwing · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 32350 Location: North America

garyd wrote: Nonsense meatball in either case you are giving them your tacit permission to engage in activities which are dangerous to their health and well being, in fact I would argue that giving them the gun and the bullet would be safer for society at large than giving them the condom.

No, not at all.

I'm just saying that absolutes such as sex control, cannot be enforced and may or may not be observed. I'm saying that the best we can do is to educate.

Please don't take offense. I meant none.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1301441&highlight=#1301441

Meatball · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 18

garyd wrote: Nonsense meatball in either case you are giving them your tacit permission to engage in activities which are dangerous to their health and well being, in fact I would argue that giving them the gun and the bullet would be safer for society at large than giving them the condom.
You arn't giving them your permission, because in such a case it doesn't matter if you say yes, or no. They will do it anyway. You're not giving them permission to engage in these sexual activites, but rather giving them the choice of safe sex.

Edit: It's them who's making their own choice. Not you who is going to make it for them. A parent isn't a form of athority, it's a guide in helping one make right choices. (Even though the choices are still the childrens)

To garyd:
Stop with the bullet+Gun/Sex+Condom analogy. It's not correct, so don't make it out to be. If you want to argue why giving a gun, and a bullet is better for society than to give a kid a condom, then do so in a different topic.

JLChrista · Joined: 05 Jul 2005 Posts: 74

garyd wrote: So people often wish to murder other does that mean we should furnish them guns and ammo?

Kids lie cheat and steal should we not attempt to correct such behavior.

Giving your child a condom is just another way of abrogating parental responsibility.

It depends on what you think "parental responsibility" is. I feel/felt that it was my responsibility to have children that would be responsible for themselves and happy in their lives. I see a robust sexual attitude as being part of the happiness. I have seen too many women trying to be the "wallflowers" that our society expects them to be, then being abandoned by their men who chose to proceed with more sexually stimulating women. I notice that when one of the other posters mentions he gives he son condoms because he doessn't want him to be a pansy, no one jumped on him. Well, it didn't want my daughter to be a pansy or a wallflower.

JLChrista · Joined: 05 Jul 2005 Posts: 74

BTW, I also made responsibility for herself a huge part up her upbringing in relation to sex. Start by saying that she did in fact wait till she was 18 to have intercourse, not my promotion of the idea and we are not at all religious or "moral", so it wasn't that either. She was just picky, a good thing I guess. Anyway, back to the responsibility aspect. . . I taught her that short of being drugged or dragged unwillingly, there is no such thing as daterape in my book and I would never support her through such a claim unless it was somehow forced on her through unknowingly being drugged or forced on her through violence. If she was stupid enough to put herself in a position with a man that compromised her, it was her own darned fault. If she was drunk and things got out of hand, tough crap; if she went to a stranger's home or invited a stranger to her home, tough crap; and so on. She was taught to be responsible in many of the aspects of sex in USA, not just STD's and pregnancies. Also she was enrolled in a few martial arts defense courses, though she doesn't like them and hasn't taken on the ability to truly defend herself. Of course at her age, that's her choice and I'll have no sympathy for her if/when she is date raped because she couldn't defend herself from being "gently" forced; which according to her has already happened once. Allowed herself into a stranger's home, and he pushed her on the bed and was too strong for her to extricate herself. He wouldn't listen to "NO" so she lived with it, learned from it, and hasn't been alone in private with a stranger since. She didn't come crying to me about it either, just came and said, "well it happened, just like you said it would if I was stupid."

social

Meatball wrote: I wanted to bring this question to this Forum, simply because I couldn't find it when I searched for it. (I'm sorry if it's already been posted before, I tried searching for it)
I am for one side, but I wont argue it unless you want me to. I'm looking to start a good debate for both sides to debate intelligently.

Let's give a situation ... He/She is 15 years of age, and has a boyfriend/girlfriend.
...Now brings up the question for debate...

Would you give a condom to your own child?
Please explain your answer when voting.

I voted yes, but not (just to clarify!) because I beleive in encouraging 15-year-olds to have sexual relationships! I believe kids are always going to have sex, with or without parental supervision. It's a natural and totally normal urge - maybe not one that should be encouraged (with sex comes limitless complications, as we all know; many a young mind simply cannot take these), but definately one that is going to happen, whatever the situation, regardless of what adults try to do to avert it.

When I was about 14, I myself was in a similar situation to the one you've described. I had sex without even telling my parents or using a condom, which was incredibly stupid but suprisingly common in the area I lived in. Had my parents known I was going to have sex, they would have bought me a hundred condoms - a million of the things! - just to stop me catching something or, perhaps worse, creating something! But, because I was still unclear as to whether they would be accepting of me leaping into the sack with another girl, I did it without telling them. It's the kind of thing that happens all the time, and religious nutters mouthing off to kids about the "evils" of premarital sex doesn't help it either!

In my expereince, that type of sex education only helps discourage the use of condoms, which is always going to be a bad thing for people who are going to have sex...

Protostar · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

I voted yes, even though I will never have kids so its really a non-issue to me.

garyd · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 691 Location: tulsa, ok

The first problem ladies and gentlemen is that there is no such thing as safe sex. Telling your kids there is happens to be wildly irresponsible on your part and the notion that well 'there going to do it anyway' is intellectually lazy and at least mildly dishonest.

About eighty per cent of what is wrong with this world to day is that far to many parents are going out of their way to avoid teaching values such as the consideration of others to their kids Values such as using other people for your own ends, which is what promiscuity is at heart, is neither wholesome nor good and is ultimately damaging to yourself and others.

Why do we as parents avoid this? Because it's damned hard work. We tend to see children as innocent when indeed they are not. The pop out of the womb selfish little hellions who don't give a tinker's dam about anything except their own needs and wants. Why do you think we find babies cute? God made them that way so we wouldn't kill most of the little monsters within a month of their birth! They are born small and clumsy so that they can't hurt themselves or anyone else before we can get them halfway civilized.

That's a parents job to raise up your child so that he will be kind, considerate and an all around decent human being and decent human beings don't use others for their own selfish pleasures.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Meatball wrote: Stop with the bullet+Gun/Sex+Condom analogy. It's not correct, so don't make it out to be. If you want to argue why giving a gun, and a bullet is better for society than to give a kid a condom, then do so in a different topic.

I don't know. I plan on giving my children guns and ammunition as well.

The main difference is, I don't plan on watching while they're learning to use condoms.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5537 Location: Dreamland, NC

I plan on doing it the same way my parents did to me. I learned through trial and error. Any kid who is in high school knows that they are supposed to use a condum if they don't it has nothing to do with parents being bad it has everything to do with kids making stpid decisions.

Meatball · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 18

garyd wrote: The first problem ladies and gentlemen is that there is no such thing as safe sex.

Sorry, "safe-er sex". Again garyd, you're right. There is no "safe sex", only a sex which is more safe than the other. Correct?
Quote: Why do you think we find babies cute? God made them that way so we wouldn't kill most of the little monsters within a month of their birth!
*sigh* I think they look like little aliens.
Back on subject...
Quote: That's a parents job to raise up your child so that he will be kind, considerate and an all around decent human being and decent human beings don't use others for their own selfish pleasures.
Everything you just stated was a personal opinion. There is no 'right way' to raise your child, as he/she is your child, and not anyone else's. The way you raise your child can be dependent on many things; where you live, your wealth, your marital status, etc. We're not looking for a side which is right, we're looking at a side which is better. Just because you can prove a point wrong, or false does not mean it makes you right. You must then prove how your point out weighs the other.

Again, no one is telling you how to raise your child. We are just telling you (or dealing with)the two sides of the argument so you can make a more intelligent choice. It's still your choice, none the less.

Meatball · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 18

Quote: I don't know. I plan on giving my children guns and ammunition as well.
This is all Dependant on the situation; I'll explain why.
How this relates: You giving them a condom is like giving them the gun, and ammunition. They can only use the condom during sex. They can use a gun when they're happy/sad/depressed/want to go hunting/want to go practice their aim/want to go shoot themselves; it differs.

Quote: The main difference is, I don't plan on watching while they're learning to use condoms.
I'm not trying to joke around or to bring humor here. Can we please stay on subject?

Meatball · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 18

politicalmojo wrote: I plan on doing it the same way my parents did to me. I learned through trial and error. Any kid who is in high school knows that they are supposed to use a condum if they don't it has nothing to do with parents being bad it has everything to do with kids making stpid decisions.
Would you rather the 'high school' teach them, or take the issue into your own hands, and teach them?
I know what you're saying is that you can only do so much; educate. But would you rather educate your children?

JLChrista · Joined: 05 Jul 2005 Posts: 74

garyd wrote: . . .and decent human beings don't use others for their own selfish pleasures.

Uhm, who is using whom? From the long talks my daughter and many of her female friends had with me present and participating in the discussion; the girls want sex just as much as the guys. Though many girls do seem to consider it more of a boyfriend/girlfriend thing. Of course I know that my son and many of his friends "fall in love" just as quickly and foolishly as the girls seem to. So what do you suggest when both parties are interested and no one is "using" the other; or conversely they are both "using" each other with full consent of each?

This idea that sex is one person using another, just doesn't fit with most realities.

Protostar · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject:

JLChrista wrote: BTW, I also made responsibility for herself a huge part up her upbringing in relation to sex. Start by saying that she did in fact wait till she was 18 to have intercourse, not my promotion of the idea and we are not at all religious or "moral", so it wasn't that either. She was just picky, a good thing I guess. Anyway, back to the responsibility aspect. . . I taught her that short of being drugged or dragged unwillingly, there is no such thing as daterape in my book and I would never support her through such a claim unless it was somehow forced on her through unknowingly being drugged or forced on her through violence. If she was stupid enough to put herself in a position with a man that compromised her, it was her own darned fault. If she was drunk and things got out of hand, tough crap; if she went to a stranger's home or invited a stranger to her home, tough crap; and so on. She was taught to be responsible in many of the aspects of sex in USA, not just STD's and pregnancies. Also she was enrolled in a few martial arts defense courses, though she doesn't like them and hasn't taken on the ability to truly defend herself. Of course at her age, that's her choice and I'll have no sympathy for her if/when she is date raped because she couldn't defend herself from being "gently" forced; which according to her has already happened once. Allowed herself into a stranger's home, and he pushed her on the bed and was too strong for her to extricate herself. He wouldn't listen to "NO" so she lived with it, learned from it, and hasn't been alone in private with a stranger since. She didn't come crying to me about it either, just came and said, "well it happened, just like you said it would if I was stupid."

:clap: :clap: I agree with everything you said, and wish more parents taught their girls like you. The world would be a better place.

social · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:45 am Post subject:

garyd wrote: The first problem ladies and gentlemen is that there is no such thing as safe sex. Telling your kids there is happens to be wildly irresponsible on your part and the notion that well 'there going to do it anyway' is intellectually lazy and at least mildly dishonest.

The notion of "safe sex" helps because it reassures people who are going to have sex, whatever you and others like you tell them, that sexual intercourse is safe. Yeah, it may not actually be safe, it may not be perfect; but it certainly helps a lot of STDs and unwanted children from actually happening. In my book that's better than nothing...

There's no intellectual dishonesty or laziness in claiming most teenagers are going to have sex, regardless of what their parents tell them. You'd have to live with your head in the sand, or on the moon, to beleive that's not the case!

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5537 Location: Dreamland, NC

Meatball wrote: politicalmojo wrote: I plan on doing it the same way my parents did to me. I learned through trial and error. Any kid who is in high school knows that they are supposed to use a condum if they don't it has nothing to do with parents being bad it has everything to do with kids making stpid decisions.
Would you rather the 'high school' teach them, or take the issue into your own hands, and teach them?
I know what you're saying is that you can only do so much; educate. But would you rather educate your children?

I dont really think it needs to be taught period. Any idiot who watches television or has even a basic concept of human anatomy knows what works safely and what doesn't. I think school is for learning about math, science, and english. Not the Bedroom. I wouldn't educate my children either. They can figure it out for themselves. That is the way my parents did it for me. It allows for the children to not worry about it so much and go on with their lives. When the time comes that they start having sexual feelings then hopefully they'll ask me about what's going on. But that wont happen till much later in life.