Political Crossfire Forums

[ieatfood]

Look, lets face it, if 9/11 didn't happen, this poll would not exist

It's the terrorists, stupid!

[pharaoh]

Cap'n queasy,

Quote: First of all, this is not true, Israel has never purposely targeted civilians as a military doctrine, which happens to be the main doctrine of the Palestinian forces.


Wow man you are brainwashed to the bones...let me help you out a bit in this:

Every single human rights organization that visited the area issued reports stating that the Israeli government and its forces seem to target civilians and exhibit reckless disregard for human life. Not one human rights non-governmental organization agreed with Israeli government propaganda that they are careful not to kill civilians and that civilians killed are "accidental" (so far in two years over 3700 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli forces including over 700 children).

- Physicians for Human Rights USA investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that: "the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF (Israeli Army) use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."
http://www.phrusa.org/research/forensics/israel/update_commentary.html

- In an interview with Ha'aretz reporter Amira Hass, an Israeli sniper described the commands he receives from his superiors: "Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us," he said. "So," responded the reporter "according to the IDF, (the appropriate minimum age group at which to shoot) is 12?" the soldier replied, "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media."

- Yediot Aharonot (Hebrew Edition, 11/17/00) quoted Tal Etlinger, a "border guard" trained to quell demonstrations as stating that riots at Um Al Fahm (where scores of unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel were shot and many killed by snipers) were much less violent than Jewish riots (such as in Tiberias) which were "much worse..but we handle Jewish riots differently..to a demonstration like this we know in advance to come without weapons.. These are the orders from above, and we use only gas."


- Human Rights Watch issued a report May 3, 2002 on Israeli atrocities in Jenin stating in part: “civilians (in Jenin) were killed willfully or unlawfully (by the Israeli military). (which) used Palestinian civilians as ‘human shields’ and used indiscriminate and excessive force.. The abuses we documented in Jenin are extremely serious, and in some cases appear to be war crimes.." (http://hrw.org/press/2002/05/jenin0503.htm)


- New York Times journalist Chris Hedges stated: " And it was--I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport. It was--I just--even now, I find it almost inconceivable. And I went back every day, and every day it was the same." Full transcript: http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487


- In an article in the Washington Post, Keith Richburg reported (11/ 30/2000; Page A01): "Iyad was shot because he ran too fast. Nshat was shot because he missed his ride. Ronny was shot for throwing a stone. And Abdel Kareem was shot where his two friends died. Iyad, Nshat, Ronny and Abdel Kareem had never met before. But these four young Palestinians now see one another daily, as patients at the Abu Raya Rehabilitation Center."

- Moshe Nissim, who operated a bulldozer for 75 straight hours in Jenin was quoted in Yediot Ahoronot:
"No one refused an order to take down a house. When they told me to destroy a house I exploited that in order to destroy a few more homes. On the loudspeaker (the Palestinian residents) were warned to get out before I came in. But I didn't give a chance to anyone. I didn't wait. I'm sure that people died inside of those houses. From my perspective we left them a football field, they should play there. The 100x100 was our present to the camp. Jenin will not return to be what it was." (Yedioth Ahronot, Friday 31 May 2002, translated by Alternative Information Center).

- B'Tselem, the Israeli Human Rights group, reported in October 2001 that "the IDF continues to employ a policy of 'an easy trigger-finger' and demonstrates a disregard for human life." In one Press Release (12 March 2002) B'Tselem stated: "In every city and refugee camp that they have entered, IDF soldiers have repeated the same pattern: indiscriminate firing and the killing of innocent civilians, intentional harm to water, electricity and telephone infrastructure, taking over civilian houses, extensive damage to civilian property, shooting at ambulances and prevention of medical care to the injured." (http://www.btselem.org/ )

More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip (beginning September 30, 2004). It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.

Palestinian human rights groups speak of even higher numbers: 598 Palestinian children killed (up to age 17), according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, and 828 killed (up to age 18) according to the Red Crescent. Take note of the ages, too. According to B'Tselem, whose data are updated until about a month ago, 42 of the children who have been killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old when they died. The youngest victims are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during birth.



Now lets hear it from a man in power:

Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as means of war...We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with our national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...
Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli prime minister
in an August 1943 article titled "terror", written for Hazit
the journal of Lehi

Now if you want more data and quotes dont hesitate to ask...im here to help you out but must promise me that you will do your best to fight all this Israel=Peace=Holy Land=Thats what god wants=They must be "good" and the Arabs must be "bad" nonesense okay?
Ask yourself this question: Does God favors such terrorist acts by "the chosen people"? If your answer is NO then why did he order the Jews to annihilate their enemies thousands of years ago? Is that the same god that says turn the other cheek or do not hold the sword? Hummm
And if your answer is YES, God does favor such acts then PHLEAZE dont lecture me about Islam ever EVER AGAIN....deal?

[pharaoh]

Saracen,

Quote: pharaoh, can you enlighten cap'n queasy with what many of Israel's leaders did to and said about Palestinians and what they should do to them?

I think what I wrote in my last post is sufficient for now. I dont wanna go too much off topic but if any body wanna read some more plz dont hesitate to ask...

Quote: What we're trying to get at is that Hamas was born from Israeli terrorism throughout fifty years of brutal occupation.

That is 110% true. Israel is a racist and terrorist country, its army was engaged in terrorism since day 1. Its not surprising that some Palestinians would want revenge for being slaughtered left and right in the last 50 years.

[pharaoh]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Where did pharaoh condone terrorism?

Quote: so the Palestinians should take revenge


Right there.

Are you slow or something?? I was explaining to you what reasons many Sheiks use to excuse acts of terrorism. Re-read my post again...from the start this time. :roll:

[Enoch]

ieatfood wrote: Look, lets face it, if 9/11 didn't happen, this poll would not exist

It's the terrorists, stupid!

9/11, The British subways, Spanish trains, Danish embassies....yeah, it just the terrorists.

If it weren't that Muslims were the ones doing the aforementioned, the poll wouldn't exist.

Oh, but wait, it IS Muslims who are bombing shi*t.

[pharaoh]

UrielsFyre wrote: ieatfood wrote: Look, lets face it, if 9/11 didn't happen, this poll would not exist

It's the terrorists, stupid!

9/11, The British subways, Spanish trains, Danish embassies....yeah, it just the terrorists.

If it weren't that Muslims were the ones doing the aforementioned, the poll wouldn't exist.

Oh, but wait, it IS Muslims who are bombing shi*t.

9/11...wow....British subways?? Indeed...Spanish trains...Danish embassies...hummm Muslims are indeed horrible..but err...let me ask you a question O noble one...how many muslims were responsible for these acts, do you know?
Thanks in advance.

[Enoch]

pharaoh wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: ieatfood wrote: Look, lets face it, if 9/11 didn't happen, this poll would not exist

It's the terrorists, stupid!

9/11, The British subways, Spanish trains, Danish embassies....yeah, it just the terrorists.

If it weren't that Muslims were the ones doing the aforementioned, the poll wouldn't exist.

Oh, but wait, it IS Muslims who are bombing shi*t.

9/11...wow....British subways?? Indeed...Spanish trains...Danish embassies...hummm Muslims are indeed horrible..but err...let me ask you a question O noble one...how many muslims were responsible for these acts, do you know?
Thanks in advance.

Don't misunderstand me. I never claimed it was ALL Muslims. But, those responsible were Muslim. Whether it was 5 Muslims or 5,000 or 5,000,000 it doesn't matter. Until the time that the rest of the Islamic world starts to silence those who are doing sh*t like this, and denouncing the terrorists in their midst, I am not going to feel sorry that the majority of the western world doesn't like nor trust them.

[pharaoh]

Quote: Don't misunderstand me. I never claimed it was ALL Muslims. But, those responsible were Muslim. Whether it was 5 Muslims or 5,000 or 5,000,000 it doesn't matter.

Okay, considering that reasoning, let me tell you that those responsible for WW1 and WW2 were Christians. Those who were responsible of slavery trade in the 17th and 18th century were Christians. Those who bombed Hiroshima and Nagazaki were Christians. Those who ruled the empire that the sun never set upon were Christian. Those who tortured Iraqis in Abu Greib were Christians. The KKK's members were Christians.

Those who killed millions of people in China during Mao's revolution were Atheists. Stalin, who was responsible for the death of millions of his own people in the 1920s was Atheist. The Japanese who killed millions of Chinese in the last century were Atheist.

The Jews who annihilated their enemies in the old testament were...err..Jews. The Israelis who target civilians and were responsible for 4 wars, hundreds of thousands of refugees, the Occupation of other people, creating a racist and terrorist state are Jews.

Now what was your point again??

Quote: Until the time that the rest of the Islamic world starts to silence those who are doing sh*t like this, and denouncing the terrorists in their midst, I am not going to feel sorry that the majority of the western world doesn't like nor trust them.

Saracen, you had alot of links all about Islamic groups everywhere in the world condeming terrorism, could you plz show them to our friend here plz? Thanks.

[Enoch]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Don't misunderstand me. I never claimed it was ALL Muslims. But, those responsible were Muslim. Whether it was 5 Muslims or 5,000 or 5,000,000 it doesn't matter.

Okay, considering that reasoning, let me tell you that those responsible for WW1 and WW2 were Christians. Those who were responsible of slavery trade in the 17th and 18th century were Christians. Those who bombed Hiroshima and Nagazaki were Christians. Those who ruled the empire that the sun never set upon were Christian. Those who tortured Iraqis in Abu Greib were Christians. The KKK's members were Christians.

Those who killed millions of people in China during Mao's revolution were Atheists. Stalin, who was responsible for the death of millions of his own people in the 1920s was Atheist. The Japanese who killed millions of Chinese in the last century were Atheist.

The Jews who annihilated their enemies in the old testament were...err..Jews. The Israelis who target civilians and were responsible for 4 wars, hundreds of thousands of refugees, the Occupation of other people, creating a racist and terrorist state are Jews.

Now what was your point again??
However, the aforementioned Christians were, with the exception of the KKK, not operating based on a religious ideal. The Muslims responsible for 9/11, Madrid, London, etc ARE operating based on religion. While it may only be an extremist inerpretation of Islam, it is still based on their religious beliefs. So, don't pull out the religious views who were operating on secular ideologies.

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Until the time that the rest of the Islamic world starts to silence those who are doing sh*t like this, and denouncing the terrorists in their midst, I am not going to feel sorry that the majority of the western world doesn't like nor trust them.

Saracen, you had alot of links all about Islamic groups everywhere in the world condeming terrorism, could you plz show them to our friend here plz? Thanks.

I am well aware that there are groups who denounce the acts of those Muslims, and I applaud them for at least voicing their displeasure. However, it doesn't appear that it is the majority who is stepping up to silence the minority. And THAT is where the problem is. What are these groups actually doing to STOP the terrorists in their religion, apart from taking a stance of trying to seperate themselves? Are they actually acting to stop them? If so, I will happily reconsider my viewpoint. But, until that point, I am going to continue my lack of empathy.

[Saracen]

queasy wrote: If you shoot someone and hide behind your women don't act surprised when your women get hit by the return fire. Don't be surprised that they issue shoot to kill orders. That is what is going to happen when you attack someone and they defend themselves.

That's not what the militants do.

queasy wrote: There is a world of difference between specifically targeting civilians, on purpose, like the Palestinians do and what the IDF does, which is return fire at their target, which attacked them first and happens to run and hide behind their own women and children. Or in a school or whatever.

No, there isn't. The I"D"F uses semantic bullsh!t to get around this. The Palestinians militants say it outright. I say the I"D"F is worse.

cap'n queasy wrote: It's their own fault this happens. That's all there is to it. Quit shooting rockets into Israel. Quit strapping bombs to yourself and detonating them in crowded civilian areas. Then there is no need for the IDF to defend themselves from you.

:blah: queasy, please. Stop talking nonsense. The I"D"F also shoots into schools, refugee camps, homes, and other places with civilians in them. The I"D"F has broken countless ceasefire regulations.

queasy wrote: What are you people, morons?

:roll:

I know who you are, but what am I?

queasy wrote: In Palestine up to 90% of the people work for the PA. This is the uniform of the political group that runs the PA. In that area, yes, it is the majority. See the crowd surrounding the parade? Do they seem to be angry with these terrorists? No, they are cheering them on.

No, it is not. I need a source for your baseless claim.

queasy wrote: Saying a small minority there is doing this is nothing but a lie. The entire population is up in arms against Israel FOR NO REAL REASON. All a bunch of made up crap. And the general Muslim population defends them, which you are doing now.

No they are not. And I am not defending terrorism. They are not entirely up in arms, but like I said before, Israeli terrorism, over 50 years, created Palestinian terrorism. Stop defending Israeli terrorism, because I sure am not defending Palestinian terrorism.

queasy wrote: Stop pretending that shooting rockets into a civilian area is justified. Stop pretending there is a credible excuse for suicide bombings. There is none.

I'm not justifying ANYTHING. YOU are justifying I"D"F terrorist operations. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but the cause of Palestinian suicide bombings is clear.

queasy wrote: This is the immorality I am talking about. You're too dumb to even understand the metaphor I used.

Again, you're talking out of your mouth before you know what came out of it. Sorry, but you are putting words into my mouth, and that's not a good way of winning a debate.

Take a hike.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Saracen,

Quote: pharaoh, can you enlighten cap'n queasy with what many of Israel's leaders did to and said about Palestinians and what they should do to them?

I think what I wrote in my last post is sufficient for now. I dont wanna go too much off topic but if any body wanna read some more plz dont hesitate to ask...

No problem. You did a fine job anyways. :tu:

Quote: Quote: What we're trying to get at is that Hamas was born from Israeli terrorism throughout fifty years of brutal occupation.

That is 110% true. Israel is a racist and terrorist country, its army was engaged in terrorism since day 1. Its not surprising that some Palestinians would want revenge for being slaughtered left and right in the last 50 years.

Of course. Even the Israelis should know better than that.

[nrhy]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

this is great...talk about living in a bubble queazy..let me ask you...do you live near the israeli propaganda center? :roll:

Quote: If you shoot someone and hide behind your women don't act surprised when your women get hit by the return fire. Don't be surprised that they issue shoot to kill orders. That is what is going to happen when you attack someone and they defend themselves.

No...i´m sorry but no...in the 1980s+ the Israelis were ordered to cleanse the Palestinians from the middle east, and to take as much land as possible for Israelis living space. Surprisingly, the "take as much land as possible for Israelis living space" in Nazi terminology is "Lebensraum", and the cleansing of a nation or culture is called genocide...both things were practiced by the nazis, and lately by the Israelis...talk about coincidence :roll:

Quote: top pretending that shooting rockets into a civilian area is justified. Stop pretending there is a credible excuse for suicide bombings. There is none.


em...they're not justified, they're not a credible excuse for suicide bombings...where do you get this stuff from?!

Quote: the irrational behavior your see, or maybe its s**t leaders.

majority of our sh!t leaders were put in power by the u.s or the european powers...

Quote: oned Christians were, with the exception of the KKK, not operating based on a religious ideal. The Muslims responsible for 9/11, Madrid, London, etc ARE operating based on religion. While it may only be an extremist inerpretation of Islam, it is still based on their religious beliefs. So, don't pull out the religious views who were operating on secular ideologies.

A man cannot blow himself up in the name of Islam...it is bullsh!t, in islam there is no such thing as committing suicide or killing others...instead they must respect people, no matter what their beliefs. You cannot condemn a terrorist attack as an attack from Islam, because killing is against islamic beliefs...get it straight.

Quote: I am well aware that there are groups who denounce the acts of those Muslims, and I applaud them for at least voicing their displeasure. However, it doesn't appear that it is the majority who is stepping up to silence the minority. And THAT is where the problem is. What are these groups actually doing to STOP the terrorists in their religion, apart from taking a stance of trying to seperate themselves? Are they actually acting to stop them? If so, I will happily reconsider my viewpoint. But, until that point, I am going to continue my lack of empathy.

For example, after the danish embassy being burnt in Lebanon, over 30 Muslim clerics, muslim politicians and the muslim population denounced the burnings...just so happens this rarely came up on international news, talk about being biased:roll:. The whole riot against the cartoons were peaceful, but the building was set aflame by few members (thought to be paid saboteurs by Syria..because they attacked 2 Muslim clerics and a Christian church in the process).

After observing how far your ignorance reaches, i might as well quote saracen on this one: "take a hike" :wink:

[Saracen]

nrhy wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol:

this is great...talk about living in a bubble queazy..let me ask you...do you live near the israeli propaganda center? :roll:

Quote: If you shoot someone and hide behind your women don't act surprised when your women get hit by the return fire. Don't be surprised that they issue shoot to kill orders. That is what is going to happen when you attack someone and they defend themselves.

No...i´m sorry but no...in the 1980s+ the Israelis were ordered to cleanse the Palestinians from the middle east, and to take as much land as possible for Israelis living space. Surprisingly, the "take as much land as possible for Israelis living space" in Nazi terminology is "Lebensraum", and the cleansing of a nation or culture is called genocide...both things were practiced by the nazis, and lately by the Israelis...talk about coincidence :roll:

Quote: top pretending that shooting rockets into a civilian area is justified. Stop pretending there is a credible excuse for suicide bombings. There is none.


em...they're not justified, they're not a credible excuse for suicide bombings...where do you get this stuff from?!

Quote: the irrational behavior your see, or maybe its s**t leaders.

majority of our sh!t leaders were put in power by the u.s or the european powers...

Quote: oned Christians were, with the exception of the KKK, not operating based on a religious ideal. The Muslims responsible for 9/11, Madrid, London, etc ARE operating based on religion. While it may only be an extremist inerpretation of Islam, it is still based on their religious beliefs. So, don't pull out the religious views who were operating on secular ideologies.

A man cannot blow himself up in the name of Islam...it is bullsh!t, in islam there is no such thing as committing suicide or killing others...instead they must respect people, no matter what their beliefs. You cannot condemn a terrorist attack as an attack from Islam, because killing is against islamic beliefs...get it straight.

Quote: I am well aware that there are groups who denounce the acts of those Muslims, and I applaud them for at least voicing their displeasure. However, it doesn't appear that it is the majority who is stepping up to silence the minority. And THAT is where the problem is. What are these groups actually doing to STOP the terrorists in their religion, apart from taking a stance of trying to seperate themselves? Are they actually acting to stop them? If so, I will happily reconsider my viewpoint. But, until that point, I am going to continue my lack of empathy.

For example, after the danish embassy being burnt in Lebanon, over 30 Muslim clerics, muslim politicians and the muslim population denounced the burnings...just so happens this rarely came up on international news, talk about being biased:roll:. The whole riot against the cartoons were peaceful, but the building was set aflame by few members (thought to be paid saboteurs by Syria..because they attacked 2 Muslim clerics and a Christian church in the process).

After observing how far your ignorance reaches, i might as well quote saracen on this one: "take a hike" :wink:

Good post, nrhy. We'd like to see you around in the Islam forums when you have the time. :tu:

[pharaoh]

Quote: However, the aforementioned Christians were, with the exception of the KKK, not operating based on a religious ideal.

Ooookay...but what about the crusades? the Spanish Inquisitors? the European religious (civil) wars?
And why only Christians (especially Americans) used slaves on a large scale? Why racism was so rampant in the US only 30 years ago? Why...just why those responsible for the death of millions of people due to Imperial occupation and world wars were Christians?
I think you find excuses for that by saying "those were secular countries". In fact I believe maybe those things would have never happened if the religion was "good" enough. I think that there is a reason why most Christians "abandoned" Christianity. Thats off topic I know but just think about it.

Oh and what about the Jews and the Israelis and the Japanese and Chinese? What is your excuse for them?

Quote: While it may only be an extremist inerpretation of Islam, it is still based on their religious beliefs.

No I dont think it is "based on their religious beliefs" when only few thousands are responsible for such acts when Muslims number more than 1 billion and a half. :roll:
I'd rather call it misinterpretation and ignorance of the true nature of their religion.

Quote: I am well aware that there are groups who denounce the acts of those Muslims, and I applaud them for at least voicing their displeasure. However, it doesn't appear that it is the majority who is stepping up to silence the minority.

Havent you heard? Those terrorists are targeting us just like they are targeting "you". Who bombs and kills Iraqi civilians every day in Iraq? Who was responsible for the wave of terrorism that swept Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia in the past years? And you are saying we are doing nothing about it...while they are infact trying to kill us?!

[pharaoh]

Quote: this is great...talk about living in a bubble queazy..let me ask you...do you live near the israeli propaganda center?

Actually queasy is supporting Israel all the way because he thinks that is his religious duty. He thinks that God is protecting Israel (the chosen people) from the Barbarians and followers of the devil (us).
So Israel cant do no wrong...that is his understanding...amazing huh? :-D

[Enoch]

nrhy wrote: Quote: Christians were, with the exception of the KKK, not operating based on a religious ideal. The Muslims responsible for 9/11, Madrid, London, etc ARE operating based on religion. While it may only be an extremist inerpretation of Islam, it is still based on their religious beliefs. So, don't pull out the religious views who were operating on secular ideologies.

A man cannot blow himself up in the name of Islam...it is bullsh!t, in islam there is no such thing as committing suicide or killing others...instead they must respect people, no matter what their beliefs. You cannot condemn a terrorist attack as an attack from Islam, because killing is against islamic beliefs...get it straight.
As misinterpreted as their beliefs may have been, they were still operating on a religious ideal. I know that killing is against Islamic beliefs. However, if I were a Muslim that thought killing was OK, and killed in the name of Islam, I would still be operating based on religious beliefs. It matters not that they were not following Islamic teachings as intended.

nrhy wrote: Quote: I am well aware that there are groups who denounce the acts of those Muslims, and I applaud them for at least voicing their displeasure. However, it doesn't appear that it is the majority who is stepping up to silence the minority. And THAT is where the problem is. What are these groups actually doing to STOP the terrorists in their religion, apart from taking a stance of trying to seperate themselves? Are they actually acting to stop them? If so, I will happily reconsider my viewpoint. But, until that point, I am going to continue my lack of empathy.

For example, after the danish embassy being burnt in Lebanon, over 30 Muslim clerics, muslim politicians and the muslim population denounced the burnings...just so happens this rarely came up on international news, talk about being biased:roll:. The whole riot against the cartoons were peaceful, but the building was set aflame by few members (thought to be paid saboteurs by Syria..because they attacked 2 Muslim clerics and a Christian church in the process).

After observing how far your ignorance reaches, i might as well quote saracen on this one: "take a hike" :wink:
Please, keep the personal attacks out of this. Thank you.

However, on the subject, you misunderstood what I said. I stated "What are these groups actually doing to STOP the terrorists in their religion, apart from taking a stance of trying to seperate themselves? Are they actually acting to stop them?"

Again, I ask. What were the ACTIONS of the groups denouncing the burnings? Did they simply speak out, or did they take ACTION to stop the extremists or at least right the wrong? If those same groups that you mention, such as the Muslim clerics and politicians, actually did something to help support the Danish people or fix the damage caused by their wayward brothers, it is a different game. But, at this time, it appears that the clerics and politicians are doing nothing more.

The only example I know of where an Islamic group was even attempting to help the situation was CAIR who, in February, requested meetings with the Danish and Norwegian ambassadors to the United States in order to discuss the cartoons and propose a way to further understanding about Islam.

Alright, that sounds like a good plan. However, how does that help stop the bombings and burnings done by the wayward Muslims? CAIR, for all it's good intentions, was preaching to the wrong group. They needed to be setting up meetings with the leaders of these extremist groups, IF that is even possible, to get them to calm down.

In fact, it appears that the "mutual cooperation" angle was simply a ploy to tell the Norwegian and Danish ambassadors that their countries' newspapers shouldn't be running the cartoons.

CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad said "We all value freedom of expression and the right to critical thought, but we should also use good judgment and common sense to avoid actions that will be perceived as intentionally insulting to others or that promote hatred." In other words, "We value freedom of expression, as long as it isn't anti-Muslim."CNS News

pharaoh wrote:
Ooookay...but what about the crusades? the Spanish Inquisitors? the European religious (civil) wars?
And why only Christians (especially Americans) used slaves on a large scale? Why racism was so rampant in the US only 30 years ago? Why...just why those responsible for the death of millions of people due to Imperial occupation and world wars were Christians?
I think you find excuses for that by saying "those were secular countries". In fact I believe maybe those things would have never happened if the religion was "good" enough. I think that there is a reason why most Christians "abandoned" Christianity. Thats off topic I know but just think about it.
Ah, there's the tactic I have been waiting for. Compare historical attrocities committed by Christians to today's attrocities committed by Muslims.

Yes, the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were enacted, and carried out, for and by Christians. However, today's Christians are not having to deal with extremists in their organization burning builidngs and bombing trains. For all their faults, at least Christian extremists are only vocally violent, not physically so.

Don't try to deflect the criticism of Islam on to Christianity with the tired, and transparent, "but they once did it too" argument.

pharaoh wrote:
No I dont think it is "based on their religious beliefs" when only few thousands are responsible for such acts when Muslims number more than 1 billion and a half. :roll:
I'd rather call it misinterpretation and ignorance of the true nature of their religion.
See above for the explanation of misinterpretation.

But, that aside, the fact that there are 1.5 billion Muslims is moot. The numbers don't matter, it is the actions that do.

pharaoh wrote:
Havent you heard? Those terrorists are targeting us just like they are targeting "you". Who bombs and kills Iraqi civilians every day in Iraq? Who was responsible for the wave of terrorism that swept Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia in the past years? And you are saying we are doing nothing about it...while they are infact trying to kill us?!
Okay, pharaoh, what are you, personally, doing about the fact that the whole of the Islamic world is being tarnished by the actions of the terrorists? Are you trying to stop them? Are you doing anything other than complaining on an internet forum?

[Saracen]

UrielsFyre wrote: CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad said "We all value freedom of expression and the right to critical thought, but we should also use good judgment and common sense to avoid actions that will be perceived as intentionally insulting to others or that promote hatred." In other words, "We value freedom of expression, as long as it isn't anti-Muslim."

No. They're talking about freedom of expression as long as it does not insult ANY group. While I'm all for free speech, I'm also for sensible speech.

[pharaoh]

Quote: Ah, there's the tactic I have been waiting for.

Oh I have been ambushed help! :lol:

Quote: Yes, the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were enacted, and carried out, for and by Christians.

Oh and dont forget the brutal religious wars in Europe...

Quote: However, today's Christians are not having to deal with extremists in their organization burning builidngs and bombing trains. For all their faults, at least Christian extremists are only vocally violent, not physically so.


Maybe because Europeans created something called SECULARISM because they had enough of Christianity? C'mon...Most Europeans and Americans are atheists nowadays or are only Christians by name. Dont tell me "Christians nowadays are good" cause I dont see "real" Christians around anymore.

Quote: Don't try to deflect the criticism of Islam on to Christianity with the tired, and transparent, "but they once did it too" argument.


Why not? So you can have your religious wars and crusaders and we cant fall victime to such things too?
ANYWAYZ we will never be like that...Most Europeans, if not all, were racists (at least towards Africans) in last hundreds of years and we never been racists.
We will never be pro killing civilians if they are not "the chosen ones" like the Jews did or like the Crusaders did in Palestine.
So far there never been religious wars similar to those that happened in Europe.

We (muslims) are indeed living in some kind of dark age but it will never get even close to the actions carried by Americans and Europeans in the past.
We are still talking about few thousands (maximum) that are giving Islam such a bad name in the west.

Quote: But, that aside, the fact that there are 1.5 billion Muslims is moot. The numbers don't matter, it is the actions that do.


So the same can be applied for the KKK example? So are we even?

Quote: Okay, pharaoh, what are you, personally, doing about the fact that the whole of the Islamic world is being tarnished by the actions of the terrorists? Are you trying to stop them? Are you doing anything other than complaining on an internet forum?

"trying to stop them"?! :lol:
Yeah every day I take my shot gun and walk down the streets of Cairo searching for some terrorists....unfortunately I didnt find any until now....forgive me :cry:

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Yeah every day I take my shot gun and walk down the streets of Cairo searching for some terrorists....unfortunately I didnt find any until now....forgive me

:rotf: Damn, that reminds me! I should have been stationed at the roof of my house. Unfortunately, I did not see a radical sheik to pelt with eggs either. :lol:

Ok, now back to seriousness. The reason why Muslims don't seem to be standing up, despite thousands of condemnations, is because of our despotic regimes that don't do anything but sit around and care more about what's in their pockets.

[pharaoh]

Quote: Damn, that reminds me! I should have been stationed at the roof of my house. Unfortunately, I did not see a radical sheik to pelt with eggs either.

tsk tsk tsk...now everybody will think that you are pro terrorists...damn you Saracen, you should buy yourself a sniper rifle and shoot some god damn terrorists!
I mean you play Doom and Quake...you have the gift :lol:

Quote: Ok, now back to seriousness. The reason why Muslims don't seem to be standing up, despite thousands of condemnations, is because of our despotic regimes that don't do anything but sit around and care more about what's in their pockets.

True.