Political Crossfire Forums

[ravind]

Hey Guys,

There's an interesting poll at voote.com about Islam.. check it out.

http://www.voote.com/jsp/VoteServerPage.jsp?TransID=RVOTES01&VoteID=360

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[pharaoh]

ravind wrote: Hey Guys,

There's an interesting poll at voote.com about Islam.. check it out.

http://www.voote.com/jsp/VoteServerPage.jsp?TransID=RVOTES01&VoteID=360

.

Oh man this is so anti Islam. Yes there are alot of "bad" things that is going on in the Islam world nowadays, however, these things are done by few muslims and that doesnt represent all muslims in any way.

[cap'n queasy]

That is always said, but nearly every Muslim seems to defend these types activities when they are discussed.

I would say the majority of Muslims approve of these activities because they excuse them. Saying you believe suicide bombing etc is wrong doesn't hold much weight if you turn right around and say the victim deserves it because they are a "zionist occupier".

That's just like saying rape is wrong but that a rape victim deserved what she got, because she was wearing a miniskirt or something.

[Enoch]

I have said, and will continue to say, that if Muslims want to stop people from thinking that they ALL are crazed, fire-bombing, flag-burning psychopaths...then they need to step up and silence, non-violently, those in their religion who continue to give the whole of Islam a bad name.

The same goes for Christians, Pagans, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

Don't like being painted by the actions of certain members in your group? Then grow a pair (if you will pardon the expression) and tell those people to shut the hell up.

[cap'n queasy]

That would certainly help.

[pharaoh]

Quote: That is always said, but nearly every Muslim seems to defend these types activities when they are discussed.


Defend what, terrorism, mistreatment of women, radicalism?

Quote: I would say the majority of Muslims approve of these activities because they excuse them. Saying you believe suicide bombing etc is wrong doesn't hold much weight if you turn right around and say the victim deserves it because they are a "zionist occupier".


I can agree with you that unfortunately there are many sheikhs nowadays that excuse targeting civilians in Israel for many reasons. Like:
- There are no civilians in Israel since they all would be mobilized and join the army in a case of war (However I dont think that is the case nowadays)
- The Israelis started targeting civilians first so the Palestinians should take revenge

However, it is clear in atleast 1 hadith of prophet Muhammed and in some verses in the Quran that it is unlawful to target women, children, old men, priests, houses, farms, trees. What is VERY AMAZING that there is a hadith of prophet Muhammed ordering muslims not to attack their enemies at night so they would not disturb them!
I wonder if any such thing was said by any other prophet or man in history.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: That is always said, but nearly every Muslim seems to defend these types activities when they are discussed.


Defend what, terrorism, mistreatment of women, radicalism?

Quote: I would say the majority of Muslims approve of these activities because they excuse them. Saying you believe suicide bombing etc is wrong doesn't hold much weight if you turn right around and say the victim deserves it because they are a "zionist occupier".


I can agree with you that unfortunately there are many sheikhs nowadays that excuse targeting civilians in Israel for many reasons. Like:
- There are no civilians in Israel since they all would be mobilized and join the army in a case of war (However I dont think that is the case nowadays)
- The Israelis started targeting civilians first so the Palestinians should take revenge

However, it is clear in atleast 1 hadith of prophet Muhammed and in some verses in the Quran that it is unlawful to target women, children, old men, priests, houses, farms, trees. What is VERY AMAZING that there is a hadith of prophet Muhammed ordering muslims not to attack their enemies at night so they would not disturb them!
I wonder if any such thing was said by any other prophet or man in history.

This is what pisses me off. People think that Islam's tolerance is non-existent. The last time, I had an argument with a to-tal ignoramus who actually said that the "tolerance verses in the Koran are cancelled"! Wow, I mean... wow. I find it amazing and amusing at the same time that people really think that Islam preaches senseless violence when in fact it does not. Also, I'm glad to say that every anti-Islamic argument I have ever countered was full of holes and ignorance.

cap'n queasy wrote: That's just like saying rape is wrong but that a rape victim deserved what she got, because she was wearing a miniskirt or something.

Utter bull. Men are not allowed to rape women. Period. It's irrelevant of what the woman is wearing or what she is doing at the time. Regardless.. whether she's an ultra-conservative or a total sl*+, she should not be raped whatsoever.

[eynon]

UrielsFyre wrote: I have said, and will continue to say, that if Muslims want to stop people from thinking that they ALL are crazed, fire-bombing, flag-burning psychopaths...then they need to step up and silence, non-violently, those in their religion who continue to give the whole of Islam a bad name.

The same goes for Christians, Pagans, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

Don't like being painted by the actions of certain members in your group? Then grow a pair (if you will pardon the expression) and tell those people to shut the hell up.

why non-violently? if my fellow Christians get too outta hand I'm not above a punch in the nose....just like St. Nicholas, my name-sake http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=465

[snow]

pharaoh wrote: ravind wrote: Hey Guys,

There's an interesting poll at voote.com about Islam.. check it out.

http://www.voote.com/jsp/VoteServerPage.jsp?TransID=RVOTES01&VoteID=360

.

Oh man this is so anti Islam. Yes there are alot of "bad" things that is going on in the Islam world nowadays, however, these things are done by few muslims and that doesnt represent all muslims in any way.

I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

[Saracen]

snow wrote: I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

Most of the poll options are.

[snow]

Saracen wrote: snow wrote: I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

Most of the poll options are.

Outside of archaic beliefs, what is?

[thefranzkafkafront]

snow wrote: Saracen wrote: snow wrote: I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

Most of the poll options are.

Outside of archaic beliefs, what is?

equate irrational behavoir with a relgion.

[thefranzkafkafront]

who in the hell makes these polls.

http://www.voote.com/jsp/VoteServerPage.jsp?TransID=RVOTES01&VoteID=146

[snow]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: snow wrote: Saracen wrote: snow wrote: I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

Most of the poll options are.

Outside of archaic beliefs, what is?

equate irrational behavoir with a relgion.

Don't you think there is a difference though between saying "Islam is a bad religion because of ______," as opposed to "Why do you think Islam is portrayed negatively?" I think the latter isn't really convicting the wholre religion, just asking why one thinks the religion is getting a bad rap.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The Israelis started targeting civilians first so the Palestinians should take revenge


First of all, this is not true, Israel has never purposely targeted civilians as a military doctrine, which happens to be the main doctrine of the Palestinian forces.

Second of all this is just another example of justifying terrorist behavior by a Muslim, yet again.


The fact is revenge is a negative behavior that the typical Muslim believes is justified. Your own statement bears line of thought out.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: cap'n queasy wrote:
That's just like saying rape is wrong but that a rape victim deserved what she got, because she was wearing a miniskirt or something.


Utter bull. Men are not allowed to rape women. Period. It's irrelevant of what the woman is wearing or what she is doing at the time. Regardless.. whether she's an ultra-conservative or a total sl*+, she should not be raped whatsoever.

You're missing the point. If rape is absolutely wrong regardless of circumstance, so is targeting civilians. Yet you defend the one action and condemn the other.

This is moral relativism at it's worst. And explains the violent mindset typical of the Muslim world and the negative culture that is produced by such a mindset.

Here's a picture of this culture celebrating the Israelis leaving the Gaza strip a while back.


Within a week those rockets were landing in a civilian area yet again, regardless of getting what they wanted in the deal. Look at the cartoonish uniforms and masks. How can these people be taken seriously as partners in the peace process?

Here is their charter. Read it and see what the truth is about these folks and their movement.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: You're missing the point. If rape is absolutely wrong regardless of circumstance, so is targeting civilians. Yet you defend the one action and condemn the other.

Bullsh!T again. I defend nothing that terrorists do. Stop putting words into my mouth, queasy. I don't condemn rape as much as you condone Israeli terrorism.

cap'n queasy wrote: This is moral relativism at it's worst. And explains the violent mindset typical of the Muslim world and the negative culture that is produced by such a mindset.

Oh, pahleaze, queasy. Stop pretending that you know about Islam and the Muslim world. I think you've been watching too much MSM that your views on the Arab and Muslim world have been polarized to the extent that we're "immoral"? queasy, we Arabs and Muslims are more conservative in general than you'll ever think we are. Rape crimes are low, "honor killings", despite documentation, are even lower, and prostitution is something that is looked down upon in Arab and Muslim society. If these pseudo-violent acts are not looked positively, what about violence itself?

cap'n queasy wrote: Here's a picture of this culture celebrating the Israelis leaving the Gaza strip a while back.

So, based on this pathetic little picture, you're assuming that Arabs and Muslims are like this in general? Seriously, queasy, you can bring up many pics, but it won't lead anywhere.

cap'n queasy wrote: Within a week those rockets were landing in a civilian area yet again, regardless of getting what they wanted in the deal.

Are you kidding me? Ever since the Israelis withdrew, 9,000 settlers moved into the West Bank, and Jerusalem Palestinians were being forcefully evicted from their homes at the time. I'm not justifying terrorism, but it's easy to see where terrorism spouts from.

cap'n queasy wrote: Look at the cartoonish uniforms and masks. How can these people be taken seriously as partners in the peace process?

Wait.... didn't you tell me awhile back that the Israelis should rise up and retake "the Kingdom of David"? Peace, eh? Please, queasy. Stop being hypocritical in your arguments. They are partners in the peace process, like it or not. The vote for Hamas was against corruption, not against peace, and you know it.

cap'n queasy wrote: Here is their charter. Read it and see what the truth is about these folks and their movement.

pharaoh, can you enlighten cap'n queasy with what many of Israel's leaders did to and said about Palestinians and what they should do to them? What we're trying to get at is that Hamas was born from Israeli terrorism throughout fifty years of brutal occupation.

cap'n queasy wrote: First of all, this is not true, Israel has never purposely targeted civilians as a military doctrine, which happens to be the main doctrine of the Palestinian forces.

No, he is right. Israelis target civilians by giving their soldiers "shoot-to-kill" orders and go through a lot of semantics to get around shooting even a little girl.

cap'n queasy wrote: Second of all this is just another example of justifying terrorist behavior by a Muslim, yet again.

Where did pharaoh condone terrorism? You know very well that we Muslims do not condone terrorism from wherever it spouts out.

cap'n queasy wrote: The fact is revenge is a negative behavior that the typical Muslim believes is justified. Your own statement bears line of thought out.

Revenge is not justified when it involves attacking civilians. Revenge is only justified against those who attack you specifically.

Now, stick to the topic. I've had enough of your intolerance, queasy. You know very well how tolerant pharaoh and I were in our discussions on religion: we show humility, NOT arrogance.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Where did pharaoh condone terrorism?

Quote: so the Palestinians should take revenge


Right there.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote:
No, he is right. Israelis target civilians by giving their soldiers "shoot-to-kill" orders and go through a lot of semantics to get around shooting even a little girl.

If you shoot someone and hide behind your women don't act surprised when your women get hit by the return fire. Don't be surprised that they issue shoot to kill orders. That is what is going to happen when you attack someone and they defend themselves.

There is a world of difference between specifically targeting civilians, on purpose, like the Palestinians do and what the IDF does, which is return fire at their target, which attacked them first and happens to run and hide behind their own women and children. Or in a school or whatever.

It's their own fault this happens. That's all there is to it. Quit shooting rockets into Israel. Quit strapping bombs to yourself and detonating them in crowded civilian areas. Then there is no need for the IDF to defend themselves from you.

What are you people, morons?



Quote: you're assuming that Arabs and Muslims are like this in general In Palestine up to 90% of the people work for the PA. This is the uniform of the political group that runs the PA. In that area, yes, it is the majority. See the crowd surrounding the parade? Do they seem to be angry with these terrorists? No, they are cheering them on.

Saying a small minority there is doing this is nothing but a lie. The entire population is up in arms against Israel FOR NO REAL REASON. All a bunch of made up crap. And the general Muslim population defends them, which you are doing now.

It's pathetic. I'm starting to think it would be better for both sides just to fight it out and get it over with. Because what is happening now is not working at all. Women and children are the one's mainly getting killed because of these cowardly attacks on civilian areas and then hiding from retaliation in civilian areas. What kind of person does that?


Quote: Oh, pahleaze, queasy. Stop pretending that you know about Islam and the Muslim world. I think you've been watching too much MSM that your views on the Arab and Muslim world have been polarized to the extent that we're "immoral"? queasy

Stop pretending that shooting rockets into a civilian area is justified. Stop pretending there is a credible excuse for suicide bombings. There is none.

This is the immorality I am talking about. You're too dumb to even understand the metaphor I used.

[thefranzkafkafront]

snow wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: snow wrote: Saracen wrote: snow wrote: I don't see how it's anti-Islam.

Most of the poll options are.

Outside of archaic beliefs, what is?

equate irrational behavoir with a relgion.

Don't you think there is a difference though between saying "Islam is a bad religion because of ______," as opposed to "Why do you think Islam is portrayed negatively?" I think the latter isn't really convicting the wholre religion, just asking why one thinks the religion is getting a bad rap.

Well considering this site had a poll where 'the things you want to get rid of' containted the right to bear arms and homosexuals, i think i've made my mind up on it.

I would answer to this that, its that way its being presented, its not saying apprent irrational behavoir, or trying to seperate irration behavior of individuals with the relgion (nor dose it with the leaders chatargories.) its basically saying.

Why have you got a bad immage of islam

the irrational behavoir your see, or maybe its s**t leaders.

Its a subtle diffrence in language and layout but as im sure you appricate that can make a huge diffrenece.