Political Crossfire Forums

LDA · Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 508 Location: Raleigh, NC

Just a thought, here. As a background, I considered myself a Christian until two or three years back, when I really started thinking about it. I eventually came to conclusion that there is no God and that it was a construct created by man to determine what is right/wrong for all people.

However, I'm not here to argue about that particular thing, that's just the conclusion I made. If you, a religious person, were to come into contact with someone like me, who had become so firm in their belief that there is no God, would you attempt to say anything to me in order to sway me? If so, what would you say? That is sort of what I want to hear from this thread.

In my mind, the thought of a God existing has become quite absurd. I wonder how I ever believed in such a thing. However, I know many people who I know to be intelligent, and decent people, that DO believe in a God. I have lost no respect for these people, but it has proven to be a very confusing thing for me.

Thanks for your responses ahead of time.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4068 Location: Florida

LDA wrote: Just a thought, here. As a background, I considered myself a Christian until two or three years back, when I really started thinking about it. I eventually came to conclusion that there is no God and that it was a construct created by man to determine what is right/wrong for all people.

However, I'm not here to argue about that particular thing, that's just the conclusion I made. If you, a religious person, were to come into contact with someone like me, who had become so firm in their belief that there is no God, would you attempt to say anything to me in order to sway me? If so, what would you say? That is sort of what I want to hear from this thread.

In my mind, the thought of a God existing has become quite absurd. I wonder how I ever believed in such a thing. However, I know many people who I know to be intelligent, and decent people, that DO believe in a God. I have lost no respect for these people, but it has proven to be a very confusing thing for me.

Thanks for your responses ahead of time.

All my friends believe in god...We have respect for each other...Its only when it comes to are beliefs do we both think the other is out of our minds.....I've only had a couple of my friends that tried to sway me..They called their little project to make me a born again... It didn't take long for them to give up...Actually I think I made them think a little on their own beliefs..

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6332

Belief in a god is NOT absurd
Belief in no god is also NOT absurd

In truth--both are possible, and there is no evidence either in support of or against a god

That's why people believe different things

Other than using human intuition (which is primitive and unrealiable) can you prove that there is no god? Can you prove that there is a god? Can you prove that the god you believe in is the correct god?

THe answer to all three is no. I'll leave it at that.

eynon · Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject:

I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

On the other hand if some-one ask me why I believe in God I'll let em know about my faith.

as to respect(blah!).....I think that word is overused, I simply don't respect Athiesm as a belief structure.....will I let those feelings of contempt show? Nope, cause I'm polite. :wink:

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6332

Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

On the other hand if some-one ask me why I believe in God I'll let em know about my faith.

as to respect(blah!).....I think that word is overused, I simply don't respect Athiesm as a belief structure.....will I let those feelings of contempt show? Nope, cause I'm polite. :wink:

so your only proof of God is that he has "revealed" himself to you.
ok, but how do you know that this is not just a mental effect? after all, our minds are complex--how do you know that what you interpret as god revealing himself isn't really just something psychological.

After all, the greeks believed that the Greek gods all revealed themselves to them as well. But they were clearly wrong. They were tricked by their own psychological workings. How do you know that you aren't being duped by the same psychological mechanism that tricked the Greeks?

eynon · Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:

ieatfood wrote: Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

On the other hand if some-one ask me why I believe in God I'll let em know about my faith.

as to respect(blah!).....I think that word is overused, I simply don't respect Athiesm as a belief structure.....will I let those feelings of contempt show? Nope, cause I'm polite. :wink:

so your only proof of God is that he has "revealed" himself to you.
ok, but how do you know that this is not just a mental effect? after all, our minds are complex--how do you know that what you interpret as god revealing himself isn't really just something psychological.

After all, the greeks believed that the Greek gods all revealed themselves to them as well. But they were clearly wrong. They were tricked by their own psychological workings. How do you know that you aren't being duped by the same psychological mechanism that tricked the Greeks?

why do you care? why do I care? what is truth? if we're nothing more then a series of chemical reactions, then how do external chemical reactions outside my own mind constitute a greater or more personally relevent reality then that within?
:wink:

besides....I never said I had proof of God, infact I think I used the word faith 8:)

LDA · Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 508 Location: Raleigh, NC

My reason for thinking of God as an "absurd" thought is probably a product of a whole chain of ideas.

One of the things I always thought of, while sitting in church. God allegedly gives us all a choice of heaven or hell. In order to go to heaven, you must accept him as your God, yada yada. Why would a God require you to make such an eternal gamble on that which you cannot see? God has no limits; he could show himself to the entire world in a way that wouldn't be obscure. But he doesn't, which causes me to believe that there is in fact no God.

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6332

LDA wrote: My reason for thinking of God as an "absurd" thought is probably a product of a whole chain of ideas.

One of the things I always thought of, while sitting in church. God allegedly gives us all a choice of heaven or hell. In order to go to heaven, you must accept him as your God, yada yada. Why would a God require you to make such an eternal gamble on that which you cannot see? God has no limits; he could show himself to the entire world in a way that wouldn't be obscure. But he doesn't, which causes me to believe that there is in fact no God.

that doesnt necessarily mean that there is no god
maybe god is just an a**hole
maybe the devil is the only god and he's just messin around with all of us
who knows?

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6332

Eynon81 wrote:

why do you care? why do I care? what is truth? if we're nothing more then a series of chemical reactions, then how do external chemical reactions outside my own mind constitute a greater or more personally relevent reality then that within?
:wink:

besides....I never said I had proof of God, infact I think I used the word faith 8:)

I dont think its a matter of "if" we're nothing more than a series of chemical reactions. I think that as we study more and more neuroscience, it's becoming essntially quite clear that we definitely ARE nothing more than chemicals.

That's why I don't believe in free will. We can change what a person chooses to do simply by changing the chemicals or electricity in his brain. And we can see how thoughts are created--we can see certain parts of the brain become chemically active before that person makes a certain decision. Thus, the person isn't really making the decision. The chemicals have already made the decision for him.

It is only an illusion that you could have chosen something different. I know that's a hard concept to grasp. It was hard for me too. But if you think about it long enough, it starts to make sense.

eynon · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:37 am Post subject:

LDA wrote: My reason for thinking of God as an "absurd" thought is probably a product of a whole chain of ideas.

One of the things I always thought of, while sitting in church. God allegedly gives us all a choice of heaven or hell. In order to go to heaven, you must accept him as your God, yada yada. Why would a God require you to make such an eternal gamble on that which you cannot see? God has no limits; he could show himself to the entire world in a way that wouldn't be obscure. But he doesn't, which causes me to believe that there is in fact no God.

having the eternal, omnipotent, end-all-be-all show up one day kinda does in "free-will" doesn't it? and if there is no free-will there is just coersion, and love can never be based on coersion.

eynon · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:41 am Post subject:

ieatfood wrote: Eynon81 wrote:

why do you care? why do I care? what is truth? if we're nothing more then a series of chemical reactions, then how do external chemical reactions outside my own mind constitute a greater or more personally relevent reality then that within?
:wink:

besides....I never said I had proof of God, infact I think I used the word faith 8:)

I dont think its a matter of "if" we're nothing more than a series of chemical reactions. I think that as we study more and more neuroscience, it's becoming essntially quite clear that we definitely ARE nothing more than chemicals.

That's why I don't believe in free will. We can change what a person chooses to do simply by changing the chemicals or electricity in his brain. And we can see how thoughts are created--we can see certain parts of the brain become chemically active before that person makes a certain decision. Thus, the person isn't really making the decision. The chemicals have already made the decision for him.

It is only an illusion that you could have chosen something different. I know that's a hard concept to grasp. It was hard for me too. But if you think about it long enough, it starts to make sense.

neuroscience or no, micro-biology and chemistry say we're nothing more then a large number of relatively simple chemical reaction.....dwell on it if you want I'm gonna go have a martini and enjoy some of those reactions. 8:)

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

ieatfood wrote: Belief in a god is NOT absurd
Belief in no god is also NOT absurd

In truth--both are possible, and there is no evidence either in support of or against a god

That's not quite true. There is plenty circumstantial and documentary evidence that supports the idea of G-d's existence.

The issue is how credible that evidence is to a person. On that issue everyone makes his own decision.

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

ieatfood wrote: Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

On the other hand if some-one ask me why I believe in God I'll let em know about my faith.

as to respect(blah!).....I think that word is overused, I simply don't respect Athiesm as a belief structure.....will I let those feelings of contempt show? Nope, cause I'm polite. :wink:

so your only proof of God is that he has "revealed" himself to you.
ok, but how do you know that this is not just a mental effect? after all, our minds are complex--how do you know that what you interpret as god revealing himself isn't really just something psychological.

After all, the greeks believed that the Greek gods all revealed themselves to them as well. But they were clearly wrong. They were tricked by their own psychological workings. How do you know that you aren't being duped by the same psychological mechanism that tricked the Greeks?

I don't think the Greek "gods" revealed themselves to them in the same sense as the invisible God we worship. I believe the Greek gods lived in bodily form here on earth, that they were the Nephilim mentioned in the bible. They clearly had superhuman powers, and maybe supernatural powers because they were part man and part angel.

So, as I see it, this argument carries little weight.

ideal · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 213 Location: Wyoming

ieatfood wrote: After all, the greeks believed that the Greek gods all revealed themselves to them as well. But they were clearly wrong.

It is incorrect to state this as a fact. It, like all other religious issues, is simply a widely accepted assumption.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2562 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: I don't think the Greek "gods" revealed themselves to them in the same sense as the invisible God we worship. I believe the Greek gods lived in bodily form here on earth, that they were the Nephilim mentioned in the bible. They clearly had superhuman powers, and maybe supernatural powers because they were part man and part angel. Someone has done his homework. If you look at the earliest pantheon of gods... the Greeks follow the tradition almost exactly. Interestingly, many of the Greek stories without older middle eastern counterparts, were not actually religious, but a way for alchemists to hide information. (For example the story of vulcan(fire) catching his wife Venus (sulfur) and his friend Mars (iron ore) etc etc.) But yes I think the beings you call Nephilim were very popular in the ancient world...just check the Vedic texts for the same characters and same stories that occur everywhere else that society suddenly sprang up. 8:)

Iamstuck · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 45

Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

I would find it very interesting if you could tell me why those improvements are the work of Your god and not another god.

I dont know what you are, but lets just say christian.

How do you know that those improvements aint the work of Thor the lightning god? Or perhaps Allah?

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9068

Iamstuck wrote: Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

I would find it very interesting if you could tell me why those improvements are the work of Your god and not another god.

I dont know what you are, but lets just say christian.

How do you know that those improvements aint the work of Thor the lightning god? Or perhaps Allah? They are all the same entity. Ascribing names like Thor, Zeus, Hecatate, Apollo, Allah, God, etc are just ways to ascribe personifications to one power.

(This is all just my opinion)

Iamstuck · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 45

UrielsFyre wrote: Iamstuck wrote: Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

I would find it very interesting if you could tell me why those improvements are the work of Your god and not another god.

I dont know what you are, but lets just say christian.

How do you know that those improvements aint the work of Thor the lightning god? Or perhaps Allah? They are all the same entity. Ascribing names like Thor, Zeus, Hecatate, Apollo, Allah, God, etc are just ways to ascribe personifications to one power.

(This is all just my opinion)

And still you choose to follow a certain religion instead of just saying; "I believe there is a divine power."?

I am sorry if this sounds offending. I'm just curious.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9068

Iamstuck wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Iamstuck wrote: Eynon81 wrote: I'm the other way....an athiest who became an evangelical. As to what I would say to you.... :think: most likley "can I get you something to drink?" coming from an athiest background I understand that there is really nothing I could say to convince you that god exists.........maybe, just maybe I could show you how God has improved my life, but that's walking the walk, not talking the talk. God releaves himself, he did it for me, I don't need to do it for him.

I would find it very interesting if you could tell me why those improvements are the work of Your god and not another god.

I dont know what you are, but lets just say christian.

How do you know that those improvements aint the work of Thor the lightning god? Or perhaps Allah? They are all the same entity. Ascribing names like Thor, Zeus, Hecatate, Apollo, Allah, God, etc are just ways to ascribe personifications to one power.

(This is all just my opinion)

And still you choose to follow a certain religion instead of just saying; "I believe there is a divine power."?

I am sorry if this sounds offending. I'm just curious.
The belief that all gods are the same power is a part of Wicca, hence one of the reasons I am a Witch.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

LDA wrote: Just a thought, here. As a background, I considered myself a Christian until two or three years back, when I really started thinking about it. I eventually came to conclusion that there is no God and that it was a construct created by man to determine what is right/wrong for all people.

However, I'm not here to argue about that particular thing, that's just the conclusion I made. If you, a religious person, were to come into contact with someone like me, who had become so firm in their belief that there is no God, would you attempt to say anything to me in order to sway me? If so, what would you say? That is sort of what I want to hear from this thread.

In my mind, the thought of a God existing has become quite absurd. I wonder how I ever believed in such a thing. However, I know many people who I know to be intelligent, and decent people, that DO believe in a God. I have lost no respect for these people, but it has proven to be a very confusing thing for me.

Thanks for your responses ahead of time.

It is natural for a religious person to try and somehow indoctrinate you with the dogma of the church and assimilate you. To beat you into submission to praise a god. Yes, some Christians will maybne talk to you once about it. And they I respect as long as they keep their religion to themselves. But the ones that I hate are those that cannot stop talking about faith and trying to make me someone who I am not. I bet it's the same situation for you.