Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

The Underground wrote: Now i'm sure this has been said a million times, however it seems like people often forget it five seconds after it has been said.

Pro-choicers do not always agree with abortion however we do think the woman should be allowed the freedom to decide on what happens to her body. for example i would not want a girl i got pregnant to get an abortion because i don't think it's the best way to solve thing, however as the decision will affect her THE MOST i believe she should have the choice, although i would do all i could to talk her out of it.

Likewise, Pro-Lifers do not always think a person should be told what to do with their body (or more precisely what a woman should do with her body) however they do feel this is something that effects more than her.

You know, the time to make the choice is beforehand. Not after. That's what responsible people do. Irresponsible folks try to make it look like they did nothing wrong afterwards.

Really irresponsible people go on forums and try to run interference just in case they may screw up sometime in the future.

[steen]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: But then, the embryo is not a child anyway. Seems the big problem with pro-death people Irrelevant, as there are no pro-death people here.

Quote: is deciding when a child is a child. Actually, it is easy. "Child" is a developmental stage that begins after birth.

Quote: A person is created at conception. Outright false as shown elsewhere. And utterly irrelevant to the issue of what a "child" is. We were talking about "child," not "person." COuld it be that you have some kind of dyslexia where you get terminology mixed up?

Quote: Everyone knows how people reproduce you pro deathers just want to deny it so you can have a care free sex life. Who are these pro-deathers you keep lying about?

Quote: Well sorry thats not reality and you shouldnt be allowed to murder your child for the sake of pleasure. And since we are not talking about murder, nor about children in general, that is just irrelevant babbling nonsense.

[AllAmericanMan]

Steen when I say a child im using the term loosely. Your game is to dehumanize them so Im going to remind you every chance I can that they are in fact people. You like to focus on what developmental stage they are in and how different they are from fully developed adults.

What matters is that it is a unique human life at its earliest stages of development. Nature made it so these developing lives would be protected inside the mother. That is what we as intellectual thinking and feeling adults should be doing, caring for and protecting our young. This includes the unborn. You see how inferior they are, you refer to them as chunks of flesh and try to dehumanize them but there is no mistaking it to anyone with their eyes open. This is clearly a seperate living human being and will continue to grow or not on its own inside the mother. The mother I might add choosing to create this offspring by engaging in the act of sexual reproduction. You can choose whatever terms you want for it, make it as painless to say as you want. The fact is that it is sanctioning the death of a defenseless human being at his or her earliest stages of life.

Now try not to pick apart the language and address the substance, if thats possible for you.

[Plodder]

Quote: Irrelevant, as there are no pro-death people here you are one, all people for abortion are pro death or anti life like you.

[Il Principe]

Ok biology 101 to all the "pro choice" people out there.

Sperm and Egg = 23 chromosomes each - combined they yield the full 46 human chromosomes, and very soon a blood type, a brain, a nervous system - a unique bieng - there is absolutely not argument here - we dont kill babies outside the womb, and there should be no reason why anybody should have the right to do whilst the child is inside the womb.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: Irrelevant, as there are no pro-death people here you are one, all people for abortion are pro death or anti life like you. Could you please stop your outright lies, thanks.

[steen]

Il Principe wrote: Ok biology 101 to all the "pro choice" people out there. AH, more ignorance.

Quote: Sperm and Egg = 23 chromosomes each - combined they yield the full 46 human chromosomes, and very soon a blood type, a brain, a nervous system - a unique bieng - there is absolutely not argument here - So you are saying that there is no unique being until these requirements have been met. Now the completion of the above is not till sometime in 3rd trimester, so per your list, THAT is when there is a unique being? Well, OK, everybody can have their own ideas about this, I guess.

But then, I am wondering what you think of those who do NOT have 46 chromosomes? Are they never "beings"?

Quote: we dont kill babies outside the womb, and there should be no reason why anybody should have the right to do whilst the child is inside the womb. But there are no children in the womb?????

[steen]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Steen when I say a child im using the term loosely. Of course you are. You are deliberately being deceptive and dishonest. As we expect from pro-lifers. There can be no serious discussion with liars. So if you want a serious discussion, stop lying. It is that simple.

Quote: Your game is to dehumanize them You are flat-out lying. Even if they were babies, persons or whatnot, it would have absolutely no bearing on my view on or argument for abortion. Your claim is a flat-out lie.

My argument for abortion has utter irrelevance of the embryo or fetus. It doesn't matter what it is, as no person even has the right to use the woman's body against her will. never mind WHAT status you assign to the embryo or fetus, it still doesn't warrant prohibiting her from aborting.

No, the reason I argue against pro-life lying, revisionist linguistics is that it is dishonest, and I see serious debate with liars as pointless.

So until you stop lying, what I am doing is exposing lies, not debating abortion.

As such your claim that I am trying to "dehumanize" the embryo or fetus is a lie. It is what it is regardless of what we call it, but we have correct terminology and you seeking to use incorrect terminology is evidence of you LYING! Is that clear enough for you? SO STOP LYING ABOUT ME

Quote: so Im going to remind you every chance I can that they are in fact people. Which is a lie.

Quote: You like to focus on what developmental stage they are in and how different they are from fully developed adults. Another LIE. I couldn't care less what their developmental stage is. It is pro-lifers who seek to focus on developmental stages. I merely refute your lies. SO if you see me posting about it, it is because of a pro-life lie that I am responding to. My focus is on the woman's right to control her own body, nothing else (other, of course, than exposing liars).

So again, stop lying about me.

Quote: What matters is that it is a unique human life at its earliest stages of development.. That doesn't matter one bit. No "unique human life" has the right to use a per4son's bodily resources against that person's will. So your point is irrelevant. But your lies are not. As long as you lie, there is no serious and honest discussion possible.

Quote: Nature made it so these developing lives would be protected inside the mother. And nature also made bacteria, arthritis and tumors. So what?

Quote: That is what we as intellectual thinking and feeling adults should be doing, caring for and protecting our young. Have at it. Go protect the individual young ones.

Quote: This includes the unborn. Nope.

Quote: You see how inferior they are, There you are. back to lying about me.

Quote: you refer to them as chunks of flesh Well, they are.

Quote: and try to dehumanize them Nope, you are lying again. Gosh, you sure LIE a lot.

Quote: but there is no mistaking it to anyone with their eyes open. Ah, an ad hominem froma liar. Sorry if I can't take that serious.

Quote: This is clearly a seperate living human being A falsehood. It is no more "separate" than your liver is

Quote: and will continue to grow or not on its own inside the mother. Ah, just like a tumor, then.

Quote: The mother I might add choosing to create this offspring by engaging in the act of sexual reproduction. Another lie. COnsent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

Quote: You can choose whatever terms you want for it, make it as painless to say as you want. The fact is that it is sanctioning the death of a defenseless human being at his or her earliest stages of life. Nope, you are still lying. And I detest liars.

Quote: Now try not to pick apart the language and address the substance, if thats possible for you. The substance I see is you endlessly lying. If you want me to see anything else, stiop lying, and especially stop lying about my motives or my beliefs.

[Plodder]

Quote: Ah, just like a tumor, then a tumor wil never grow into anything else but a tumor. it will only harm.

[Plodder]

Quote: COnsent to sex is not consent to pregnancy whether the main intention may differ, the biological purpose of reproduction is actually.... reproduction.

Quote: It is no more "separate" than your liver is
and yet you are here blaberring away AGAIN!


here now im going to use a word that you never answer in any of your posts: why?

Why are embryos not children?
Why are fetusues not human?
Why is this (death of a defenseless human being at his or her earliest stages of life.) a lie?

if you dont ewant to ansewr those questions dont. but if you dont, know this,: being a coward will not convince anyone.

oh and if you bother to be honest... use sources in your answer.

[AllAmericanMan]

If he could say anything besides what he already did, I think he would have. Thats pretty much why im leaving him alone.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: Ah, just like a tumor, then a tumor wil never grow into anything else but a tumor. it will only harm. Just like an unwanted pregnancy harms.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: Just like an unwanted pregnancy harms The mother is not the victim here. The mother chose to engage in the risky behavior and should not be allowed to commit murder for convenience sake.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: COnsent to sex is not consent to pregnancy whether the main intention may differ, the biological purpose of reproduction is actually.... reproduction. Irrelevant. The biological purpose of a tumor is to kill you. yet we have surgery to remove the tumor. Any other very stupid and silly red herrings you want to bring up?

Quote: Quote: It is no more "separate" than your liver is
and yet you are here blaberring away AGAIN! Ah, once again, you cowardly avoid dealing with the challenge to your lies. How pathetic and lame.

Quote: here now im going to use a word that you never answer in any of your posts: why?

Why are embryos not children? Because "child" is a developmental stage beginning aftre birth, prolife lies, revisionist linguistic hyperbole and emotional histrionics none withstanding. To repat that lying clim of yours is merely evidence that you are a liar.

Quote: Why are fetusues not human? Who have said they are not human? Stop lying and spewing false claims.

Quote: Why is this (death of a defenseless human being at his or her earliest stages of life.) a lie? Your claim makes no sense as it makes alse claims in it and thus is just another lyign pro-life espousing.

Quote: if you dont ewant to ansewr those questions dont. I have no problem answering questions as long as you don't inflict your lies in them. If you lie, there is no meaningfuil discussion. I have pointed thios out before, yet you continue your incessant lying.

Quote: but if you dont, know this,: being a coward will not convince anyone. So that is why you cowardly avoid dealing with my challenges to your lies? :roll:

[steen]

AllAmericanMan wrote: If he could say anything besides what he already did, I think he would have. Thats pretty much why im leaving him alone. As all you have are lies, there is no point in doing anything else with you than pointing out your lies. What else would you expect. If you don't like it, all you have to do is simply to stop lying, then we could look at the issues instead.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: Irrelevant. The biological purpose of a tumor is to kill you. yet we have surgery to remove the tumor. Any other very stupid and silly red herrings you want to bring up? What does that have to do with his point? Youre not making any sense here. Were talking about a developing human life being killed by its mother, what does that have to do with tumors? You seem to have a problem with "projection". Projection is a term used for people who project their problems onto others. You use the word irrelevant as if describing his very relevent response. Then you bring up a different subject all together and accuse him of bringing up red herrings. In short, you are insane.

[Plodder]

Quote: Irrelevant. The biological purpose of a tumor is to kill you. yet we have surgery to remove the tumor. Any other very stupid and silly red herrings you want to bring up? a baby bilogical purpose is to live. once again your prove to have a logic that stops a t L.....

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: Irrelevant. The biological purpose of a tumor is to kill you. yet we have surgery to remove the tumor. Any other very stupid and silly red herrings you want to bring up? a baby bilogical purpose is to live. once Utterly irrelevant, as there is no baby before birth.

[Plodder]

acoording to the gospel of steen maybe but to the rest of the world it is a baby.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: acoording to the gospel of steen maybe but to the rest of the world it is a baby. Actually, this is the accurate, unambiguous definition used in science. "Baby" is a developmental stage that begins at birth. That pro-lifers so deceptively try to make it apply before birth, as if the fetus and baby are somehow one and the same is merely further evidence of how much pro-lifers always lie.