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superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.

Jesus is Jehovah......I think your confusion is that you think Jehovah is "the Father" of the Triune nature of God.

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

John wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.

Jesus is Jehovah......I think your confusion is that you think Jehovah is "the Father" of the Triune nature of God.

I think they are different, but one in the same, and don't even throw the Holy Ghost in there, which if I could describe it I guess I would think of it as the Father's spirit?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

superchick wrote: John wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.

Jesus is Jehovah......I think your confusion is that you think Jehovah is "the Father" of the Triune nature of God.

I think they are different, but one in the same, and don't even throw the Holy Ghost in there, which if I could describe it I guess I would think of it as the Father's spirit?

Well if you have your Bible handy...open it and follow this little test I wrote up. One thing you need to know is that when you read the word LORD (all caps) in the English translations...it's literally Jehovah in the Hebrew.

Isaiah 41

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Who is this?_____________________

Isaiah 44

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Who is this?________________________

Isaiah 48

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
….
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who is this?________________________

Revelation 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who is this?________________________

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Who is this?________________________

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Now tell me…. Who is this?________________________

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

Ok, so John, do you not believe in the trinity in the conventional sense of, they are all the same? I don't think I believe that. I believe in each individual, and that Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega and infinate.
We are studing Ephesians, and in it Paul says that Jehovah knew upon creation that he would send Jesus for us, even before the earth was created, which I believe Jehovah did. This also makes me think they are seperate. But they are a trinity as far as completing body, mind and spirit. Does that make sense? Also, Jehovah sent Jesus to be of the flesh, and I believe he was the lamb because he was without sin, but he had free will like us, so this als leads me to believe they are seperate.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

superchick wrote: Ok, so John, do you not believe in the trinity in the conventional sense of, they are all the same? I don't think I believe that. I believe in each individual, and that Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega and infinate.
We are studing Ephesians, and in it Paul says that Jehovah knew upon creation that he would send Jesus for us, even before the earth was created, which I believe Jehovah did. This also makes me think they are seperate. But they are a trinity as far as completing body, mind and spirit. Does that make sense? Also, Jehovah sent Jesus to be of the flesh, and I believe he was the lamb because he was without sin, but he had free will like us, so this als leads me to believe they are seperate.

Yeah...I believe in the trinity in the conventional sense. I just think you're misunderstanding it by thinking only "the Father" = Jehovah. Jehovah is God...not just a person of the Trinity. Jesus is a person of the Trinity. The Father is a person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is a person of the Trinity.....they're ALL Jehova (The self-existent One).

What do you think of this?

Jeremiah 23
4 "I will also raise up shepherds over them and they will tend them; and they will not be afraid any longer, nor be terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD.
5"Behold, thedays are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6"In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
'The LORD our righteousness.'

Verse six is literally saying, "And this is His name by which He will be called, 'Jehova (YHVH) our righteousness.

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

John wrote: superchick wrote: Ok, so John, do you not believe in the trinity in the conventional sense of, they are all the same? I don't think I believe that. I believe in each individual, and that Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega and infinate.
We are studing Ephesians, and in it Paul says that Jehovah knew upon creation that he would send Jesus for us, even before the earth was created, which I believe Jehovah did. This also makes me think they are seperate. But they are a trinity as far as completing body, mind and spirit. Does that make sense? Also, Jehovah sent Jesus to be of the flesh, and I believe he was the lamb because he was without sin, but he had free will like us, so this als leads me to believe they are seperate.

Yeah...I believe in the trinity in the conventional sense. I just think you're misunderstanding it by thinking only "the Father" = Jehovah. Jehovah is God...not just a person of the Trinity. Jesus is a person of the Trinity. The Father is a person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is a person of the Trinity.....they're ALL Jehova (The self-existent One).

What do you think of this?

Jeremiah 23
4 "I will also raise up shepherds over them and they will tend them; and they will not be afraid any longer, nor be terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD.
5"Behold, thedays are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6"In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
'The LORD our righteousness.'

Verse six is literally saying, "And this is His name by which He will be called, 'Jehova (YHVH) our righteousness. That makes sense. Jehovah is all encompassing,and Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are just little glimpses of the power and beauty of Jehovah's abilities.

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.
Probably because it is a made-up piece of illogic designed only to avoid polytheism. God sending out God to help God redeem God's creations? Even God couldn't make heads or tails out of that one, but the Church keeps on telling you what the founders of the faith didn't believe anyway...

BACKGROUND:
An Appeal to Trinitarian Christians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Historical Background of the Trinity

By Jeff Rath 11-97

The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned; it breaks the first great commandment of God of not having any gods before him (Exodus 20:3). Then three centuries after Christ the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.
Probably because it is a made-up piece of illogic designed only to avoid polytheism. God sending out God to help God redeem God's creations? Even God couldn't make heads or tails out of that one but the Church keeps on telling you what the founders of the faith didn't believe anyway... Let's cut to the chase. So you theory on how everything was created is... ? Coincidence?

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.
Probably because it is a made-up piece of illogic designed only to avoid polytheism. God sending out God to help God redeem God's creations? Even God couldn't make heads or tails out of that one but the Church keeps on telling you what the founders of the faith didn't believe anyway... Let's cut to the chase. So you theory on how everything was created is... ? Coincidence?
Because it was. Things happen that way in nature. It might be almost incomprehensible but there is nothing miraculous implied. To a caveman, fire was a gift from the God's in the Sky. Now we call it lighting and we know why it happens...

SilveryMinnow · Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Posts: 3143 Location: Rio Grande River

God reigns over Heaven and all of Creation. His Son Christ our Lord is second only to God.

SilveryMinnow · Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Posts: 3143 Location: Rio Grande River

superchick wrote: Ok, so John, do you not believe in the trinity in the conventional sense of, they are all the same? I don't think I believe that. I believe in each individual, and that Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega and infinate.
We are studing Ephesians, and in it Paul says that Jehovah knew upon creation that he would send Jesus for us, even before the earth was created, which I believe Jehovah did. This also makes me think they are seperate. But they are a trinity as far as completing body, mind and spirit. Does that make sense? Also, Jehovah sent Jesus to be of the flesh, and I believe he was the lamb because he was without sin, but he had free will like us, so this als leads me to believe they are seperate.

As the Lord Created us, the Angels and the Universe, so did he create his Son to be him in Human form.

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

SilveryMinnow wrote: God reigns over Heaven and all of Creation. His Son Christ our Lord is second only to God.
You're not showing much Spirit there. Then again, who wants to known as the Third Wheel...

SilveryMinnow · Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Posts: 3143 Location: Rio Grande River

Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: God reigns over Heaven and all of Creation. His Son Christ our Lord is second only to God.
You're not showing much Spirit there. Then again, who wants to known as the Third Wheel...

Im not following your logic Snarf, could you please explain a bit clearer?

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

SilveryMinnow wrote: Snarf wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: God reigns over Heaven and all of Creation. His Son Christ our Lord is second only to God.
You're not showing much Spirit there. Then again, who wants to known as the Third Wheel...

Im not following your logic Snarf, could you please explain a bit clearer?
God=1, Son=2, Spirit=3.

SilveryMinnow · Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Posts: 3143 Location: Rio Grande River

The Holy spirit is the pure love between God and his Son Jesus. There is no person there. The Holy Mother Mary, Angels and Saints are embued with the Holy spirit created between God and Jesus.

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

SilveryMinnow wrote: The Holy spirit is the pure love between God and his Son Jesus. There is no person there. The Holy Mother Mary, Angels and Saints are embued with the Holy spirit created between God and Jesus.
So the Spirit is rather new? Interesting thought...

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6567 Location: US

Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.
Probably because it is a made-up piece of illogic designed only to avoid polytheism. God sending out God to help God redeem God's creations? Even God couldn't make heads or tails out of that one but the Church keeps on telling you what the founders of the faith didn't believe anyway... Let's cut to the chase. So you theory on how everything was created is... ? Coincidence?
Because it was. Things happen that way in nature. It might be almost incomprehensible but there is nothing miraculous implied. To a caveman, fire was a gift from the God's in the Sky. Now we call it lighting and we know why it happens... What about the elements, H2o , oxygen, photosynthesis, our dependency on plants, plants dependency on us for carbon dioxide and oxygen, the weather, seeds that turn into plants from the earth. How miraculous is that? I mean 1 or 2 things maybe pure coincidence, but all things on the earth so dependent on each other...nothing short of a divine creation.

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5459

superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: Snarf wrote: superchick wrote: This is the hardest concept for me to grasp. I just don't know if I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one. I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, like my daughter is me, but welll......I just don't grasp the trinity.
Probably because it is a made-up piece of illogic designed only to avoid polytheism. God sending out God to help God redeem God's creations? Even God couldn't make heads or tails out of that one but the Church keeps on telling you what the founders of the faith didn't believe anyway... Let's cut to the chase. So you theory on how everything was created is... ? Coincidence?
Because it was. Things happen that way in nature. It might be almost incomprehensible but there is nothing miraculous implied. To a caveman, fire was a gift from the God's in the Sky. Now we call it lighting and we know why it happens... What about the elements, H2o , oxygen, photosynthesis, our dependency on plants, plants dependency on us for carbon dioxide and oxygen, the weather, seeds that turn into plants from the earth. How miraculous is that? I mean 1 or 2 things maybe pure coincidence, but all things on the earth so dependent on each other...nothing short of a divine creation.
Believe as you wish, but the Universe and everything in it requires no God. Many people do however, but that doesn't mean He exists. What you see as planned is only because you don't know how it might have been different. You see a green Earth. It used to be purple...

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Snarf wrote: Believe as you wish, but the Universe and everything it requires no God. Many people do however, but that doesn't mean He exists. What you see as planned is only because you don't know how it might have been different. You see a green Earth. It used to be purple...
Creation does require the existence of Law..

Even science affirms this much..