Political Crossfire Forums

[George W Bush]

OneZero wrote: George W Bush wrote: OneZero wrote: George W Bush wrote: i seriously want to become vegetarian but dont have the patience to make the food.

i will, someday.

Um.... so why do you want to make OTHER people vegetarians? That kinda sounds like hypocrasy.

i never said that.
thats a misconception because I care for animals, or am a PETA member.

I would be a hypocrite if I insisted people not eat animals.

I am not a hypocrite when I expect animals to be treated decently.

Define "decently." I care for animals too, I'm just not an extremist.

not cruelly.

and that means, taking them to the vet when they need it and not because you cant afford it.

[jasonireland]

George W Bush wrote: i seriously want to become vegetarian but dont have the patience to make the food.

i will, someday.

its not that hard.... i thought about it for years and eventually made the decision after reading so much is just couldnt ignore it anymore... and then went vegan a year later.

if you search it on the net you will get alot of support sites with a wealth of info whenever you feel the time is right.

one bit of advice (if you ever make the choice) and this helped me alot, is to at first cut out all processed meat like sausages and burgers, then a month later cut out steaks and red meat, then a month later get rid of chicken, a month after that all seafood and by that stage you will have started to enjoy enough types of vegetarian food to be happy in your diet. it doesnt have to be overnight....i did the same method when turning vegan. yeah, its a pain in the ass cause you would have to learn how to cook alot of stuff yourself, but its more rewarding knowing what goes into your food!!!

onezero, if you cared for animals you would own a farm , treat them humanely and kill them yourself in a respectful way, that way you would not be ignoring the reality of what really happens to your food before it hits your plate. t

the least you could do, if you care from animals is eat organic produce, that way, there is less of a chance they are being mistreated and used purley as beings of maximum profit.but as i said above you will believe what it suits you to believe, other than that you could at least be honest in your statement that you claim to care for animals....

[OneZero]

George W Bush wrote: OneZero wrote: George W Bush wrote: OneZero wrote: George W Bush wrote: i seriously want to become vegetarian but dont have the patience to make the food.

i will, someday.

Um.... so why do you want to make OTHER people vegetarians? That kinda sounds like hypocrasy.

i never said that.
thats a misconception because I care for animals, or am a PETA member.

I would be a hypocrite if I insisted people not eat animals.

I am not a hypocrite when I expect animals to be treated decently.

Define "decently." I care for animals too, I'm just not an extremist.

not cruelly.

and that means, taking them to the vet when they need it and not because you cant afford it.

Then I agree with you, I don't want anyone to treat an animal cruelly anymore than you do.

What? I'm not sure I understand you on the second part.... The first half makes sense (taking them to the vet when they need it) and I agree with it, but you lost me on the rest. You're saying you SHOULD take them to the vet even if you CAN'T afford it? :?

[mathurin]

jasonireland wrote: mathurin, as i already stated, i have my beliefs , they do not come from one study, i do not care whether you believe me or not, i do not even care if his study is a "hoax" or not. as i said above, people believe what they want to believe.

so giving me a link to some other book or study is completely ignoring what i said. the debate is over, nothing has come from this because neither side was willing to listen or change their stance, so you can keep posting all you want but there is no point.

it seems like almost every single thread on this website is counter-productive. nobody ever admits defeat, if subject is posted that the usual right -wing or left-wing people should dis-agree with but they cannot because they have no case, then they simply ignore it, and it gets lost through the pages. and if someone is losing a debate they they just dismiss the whole argument.............i am not talking soley about the animal rights issue / veganism I am talking about ALL the issues.

its not about winning or losing as much as honing arguments, when you have an idea for one you post it, then people support or oppose it and in the process we discover what arguments have true merit and which ones need trashed

anybody with an understanding of stats will tell you that this study is falacious, we have therefore proven that the supporting evidence for the assertion you made is false, and that unless you can provide more information to support your claim then your claim falls

do i really think meat contributes to cancer, absolutly, so does breathing, drinking, sex, having testicles
what if i told you that by castrating yourself you could live another 5 or 10 years, would you do it?
past studies have shown that testosterone signifigantly increases the chance of prostate cancer
knowing this i am still keeping my testicles, as i imagine most men would


and when you lauch into rants like the above it is a sign of defeat

[OneZero]

jasonireland wrote:
onezero, if you cared for animals you would own a farm , treat them humanely and kill them yourself in a respectful way, that way you would not be ignoring the reality of what really happens to your food before it hits your plate.

the least you could do, if you care from animals is eat organic produce, that way, there is less of a chance they are being mistreated and used purley as beings of maximum profit.but as i said above you will believe what it suits you to believe, other than that you could at least be honest in your statement that you claim to care for animals....

Um...... excuse me? So since I care for animals I should spend my life and money raising my food, whereas since you care for animals you want to stop everyone from doing whatever you consider cruel. :roll:

[jasonireland]

one zero and mathurin, i dont care!!!!!!!!!stop replying,

eat all the meat you want, and dont let anyone ever stop you.....

i will even assume defeat if it makes you happy and stops you posting, you obviously dont get the meaning of what i am saying. there are no winners or losers, only time will tell.....

its really pointless discussing with you two, when you keep extending the arguement

onezero, i never said i wanted people to stop doing what i consider cruel, i just want you to be honest with yourselves and with others.

just because i am vegan doesnt mean i want the whole world to follow, especially not you two!!!!!

so i hereby claim i am defeated. i have my beliefs and you have yours, and let it be.

[OneZero]

jasonireland wrote: one zero and mathurin, i dont care!!!!!!!!!stop replying,

eat all the meat you want, and dont let anyone ever stop you.....

i will even assume defeat if it makes you happy and stops you posting, you obviously dont get the meaning of what i am saying. there are no winners or losers, only time will tell.....

its really pointless discussing with you two, when you keep extending the arguement

onezero, i never said i wanted people to stop doing what i consider cruel, i just want you to be honest with yourselves and with others.

just because i am vegan doesnt mean i want the whole world to follow, especially not you two!!!!!

so i hereby claim i am defeated. i have my beliefs and you have yours, and let it be.

Hey, YOU started this thread, not either of us!

[Face]

I agree with the last sentence posted.

So what was your point when you started this thread? to inform the masses? now you have feedback and your not willing to back up your ideas? :think:

[jasonireland]

"Hey, YOU started this thread, not either of us!."......yes but you keep dragging it out when there is no point!!!


ok , i will say this one more time to hopefully clear things up

if the discussion continued i would be pasting evidence from other studies and giving url links to diagrams where the figures can be shown, but since people CHOOSE what they believe SUITS them and refute the scientific studies or common sense that are hard to swallow, i deem my argument pointless, nomatter what i say, others are going to argue against it to no end,

unless a meat industry study publishes figures ( which will obviously never happen)or your bloody president tells you then you are not prepared to believe anything i say, to you, all other sources are invalid.

all the discussions on this website are extremely repeditive.

from the way you drag it out it degenerates the debate
saying things like ....
onezero"Um...... excuse me? So since I care for animals I should spend my life and money raising my food, whereas since you care for animals you want to stop everyone from doing whatever you consider cruel. "

-i never said that, you people really have a habit of twisting what i say, either deliberately or not, its bloody annoying and detracts from the issue.its frustrating to the point of me assuming you do it deliberately to stoke up a reaction, which, if is the case is petty. If you do it without knowing it, its just stupid.

and then face comes along and says
face"So what was your point when you started this thread? to inform the masses? now you have feedback and your not willing to back up your ideas?" which obviuosly displays that you did not read the post above where i claim "you choose to believe what suits you"....if you read that and grasped you would understand my frustration at the repeditiveness and futility of arguing with someone about anything to do with your diet or animals. it NEVER produces results, due to the unwillingless of people to be convinced of something they have not read in the mainstream media or is not common knowledge.

onezero, please be honset with me, if you do really care for animals, you would at least kill them humanely yourself, at least once, to display you are not avoiding the reality of what happens before the meat reaches the supermarket.you would at least research to find out how much of your countries meat is produced in factory farms. you would research and find out if that chicken you ate came from a battery farm.this is the issue and it makes want to say a few things.

tribespeople love animals. they have respect for animals. they look at it in a spiritual, ancient way. the animal roams free for its whole life, or relative freedom to what western animals get, and then is killed instantly, no cages, no growth hormones, no unnesscessary diseases,no abuse,no crowded conditions just a natural death and life.

i have no problem with people who eat meat. i never said i did. this is a common misunderstanding of vegans/vegetarians, and reason we receive such a backlash from others.

i reject the "modern" treatment of animals and its consequence for health (mad cow disease to name but one) and the environment and of course the wellbeing of animals themselves. i reject this treatment by being vegan.

i have no problem with people who are honest and say "i dont give a crap if the animal goes through torture before death, i dont care about animals" ....at least these people are honest, they may be cruel and heartless, but at least they are honest.

i have a problem with someone who repeatedly states " i care for animals" yet they have no idea how the animals gets treated before they eat it. and then if they hear of mistreatment of animals , they say its an isolated case, when you cannot know for sure what way your dinner was treated before it hit your plate.

How can you say you care for animals and continually deny to find out for yourself where your food comes from? Thats all, if I am asking ( not telling people, as you twist my words once more). I am ASKING people to be honest and find out for yourself.

Its a simple as saying " I care for the environment" but not recycling, claiming it makes no difference and doing NO PERSONAL RESEARCH

all of the above in red is directed at onezero, since he claims to care for animals.by doing this he defines the word "contradiction"but as i said before, he will defend his position by BELIEVING WHAT HE WANTS TO BELIEVE. cause its just the easiest way to defend yourself.

[OneZero]

jasonireland wrote:
onezero, please be honset with me, if you do really care for animals, you would at least kill them humanely yourself, at least once, to display you are not avoiding the reality of what happens before the meat reaches the supermarket.you would at least research to find out how much of your countries meat is produced in factory farms. you would research and find out if that chicken you ate came from a battery farm.this is the issue and it makes want to say a few things.

tribespeople love animals. they have respect for animals. they look at it in a spiritual, ancient way. the animal roams free for its whole life, or relative freedom to what western animals get, and then is killed instantly, no cages, no growth hormones, no unnesscessary diseases,no abuse,no crowded conditions just a natural death and life.

i have no problem with people who eat meat. i never said i did. this is a common misunderstanding of vegans/vegetarians, and reason we receive such a backlash from others.

i reject the "modern" treatment of animals and its consequence for health (mad cow disease to name but one) and the environment and of course the wellbeing of animals themselves. i reject this treatment by being vegan.

i have no problem with people who are honest and say "i dont give a crap if the animal goes through torture before death, i dont care about animals" ....at least these people are honest, they may be cruel and heartless, but at least they are honest.

i have a problem with someone who repeatedly states " i care for animals" yet they have no idea how the animals gets treated before they eat it. and then if they hear of mistreatment of animals , they say its an isolated case, when you cannot know for sure what way your dinner was treated before it hit your plate.

How can you say you care for animals and continually deny to find out for yourself where your food comes from? Thats all, if I am asking ( not telling people, as you twist my words once more). I am ASKING people to be honest and find out for yourself.

Its a simple as saying " I care for the environment" but not recycling, claiming it makes no difference and doing NO PERSONAL RESEARCH

all of the above in red is directed at onezero, since he claims to care for animals.by doing this he defines the word "contradiction"but as i said before, he will defend his position by BELIEVING WHAT HE WANTS TO BELIEVE. cause its just the easiest way to defend yourself.

Ok, the truth here is that I hunt AND I have chickens. I have a friend who raises beef cattle and he gives me meat every now and then. I have a garden where I grow vegetables. Is this where I get all my food? No, you're right, I get the majority of my meat from the store (except eggs - haven't bought eggs since June 2004). But you know what else? 100% organic food, at least around here, is very expensive stuff. I personally don't think that beef cattle are treated cruelly, so I have no problem with buying stuff from the store, it's a matter of price and convenience. Like I've said, my love for animals stops where my budget begins. I wish I could afford to raise my own beef, or that I could hunt all year long, but I can't. That doesn't make me like animals any less, it just means I have different values than you, as George said.

[jasonireland]

onezero, finally, thank you for being honest with me and clearing things up, its refreshing. now we have something to work on.

"I personally don't think that beef cattle are treated cruelly, so I have no problem with buying stuff from the store, it's a matter of price and convenience. Like I've said, my love for animals stops where my budget begins"
so finally you admit you love animals, but only to a certain degree ,you "love " them only if it suits you, as long as it adhears to your convenience and budget. you love and care for animals, but only on a minor level , you will not go out of your way for your care of animals. this is a confusing type of "care" and "love".

Grolier International Dictionary defines those words as:
Care:
To have strong feeling or opinion, to be concerned or interested,attentiveness to detail,protection, supervision, charge.
Love:
An intense affectionate concern,

if you were concerned you would research where all your food comes from. At least find out what the companies ethics are like. but i guess thats just another inconvenience to you.

i didnt know you could turn love on or off to suit you or for convenience! I mean , i never even said i loved animals, you said you have love for them , that somehow dissappears when the issue of money comes into play. strange love.

you personally dont "think" that beef cattle are treated cruelly.you say you dont think, that means you dont actually know. why is this?why have you any reason to believe they are treated properly? they are mostly units of maximum profit, and that is their only function . maximum profit, i said, not just profit, there is a huge difference.thats where it gets ugly.

you say "I've said, my love for animals stops where my budget begins" thats hardly "love" at all then is it?

you say "it just means I have different values than you" this is plain to see, but your values are confusing and leave alot to the imagination.

if you have love for something, you will fight for it, at least defend it, at the very least be honest with it. that is what anyone would expect.

i am glad you are being honest, alot of interesting ideas are surfacing now.

[OneZero]

jasonireland wrote:
"I personally don't think that beef cattle are treated cruelly, so I have no problem with buying stuff from the store, it's a matter of price and convenience. Like I've said, my love for animals stops where my budget begins"
so finally you admit you love animals, but only to a certain degree ,you "love " them only if it suits you, as long as it adhears to your convenience and budget. you love and care for animals, but only on a minor level , you will not go out of your way for your care of animals. this is a confusing type of "care" and "love".

No, I love animals, but I can't love them to the extent that it takes food from MY mouth or benefits from my family. Call me selfish, but I'd rather eat than allow some distant cow, an animal I will never see or hear about till it's on my plate, to live.

Quote: i didnt know you could turn love on or off to suit you or for convenience! I mean , i never even said i loved animals, you said you have love for them , that somehow dissappears when the issue of money comes into play. strange love.

Ok, there are very few animals I love enough to forego a meal for myself to keep them happy. Believe it or not, my dog is one of them. HOWEVER, if my dog suddenly needs $5,000 surgery, I'm sorry! I still love him, but I cannot justify in my mind spending that kind of money when it could be better spent on my family.

Quote: you personally dont "think" that beef cattle are treated cruelly.you say you dont think, that means you dont actually know. why is this?why have you any reason to believe they are treated properly? they are mostly units of maximum profit, and that is their only function . maximum profit, i said, not just profit, there is a huge difference.thats where it gets ugly.

You're right, I don't know because I haven't studied or researched it. The cruelest thing I've heard that happens to beef cows is they get kept in a dark stall, which while certainly unpleasant for you or me isn't necessarily cruel if the animal has never known anything else. In dog training we have a saying, "if it's never had it, it won't want it."

Quote: you say "I've said, my love for animals stops where my budget begins" thats hardly "love" at all then is it?

No, it's still love, I just love others more.

Quote: you say "it just means I have different values than you" this is plain to see, but your values are confusing and leave alot to the imagination.

What do they leave to the imagination? I've tried to clearly answer all of your questions and statements, if I was unsuccessful I'm sorry.

Quote: if you have love for something, you will fight for it, at least defend it, at the very least be honest with it. that is what anyone would expect.

Very true, and if it's a choice between something you love and something you love more, which do you choose? Obviously the second one.

[mathurin]

jasonireland wrote: "Hey, YOU started this thread, not either of us!."......yes but you keep dragging it out when there is no point!!!


ok , i will say this one more time to hopefully clear things up

if the discussion continued i would be pasting evidence from other studies and giving url links to diagrams where the figures can be shown, but since people CHOOSE what they believe SUITS them and refute the scientific studies or common sense that are hard to swallow, i deem my argument pointless, nomatter what i say, others are going to argue against it to no end,

you failed to produce any scientific studies, you produced a statistical study, which is not the same thing, and a flawed one at that, i have shown you why it is flawed, do you not believe me?

regardless of what you think peoples minds have been changed on this website, i myself have helped at least 2 people understand that guns arent bad and should not be banned for various reasons
it does happen

what do i believe, sure, meat causes cancer, ill say that again
MEAT CAUSES CANCER!!!
so does testosterone and breathing air, fresh or polluted, so meat does not offer a signifigant enough threat to my health for me to drop it

jasonireland wrote:
unless a meat industry study publishes figures ( which will obviously never happen)or your bloody president tells you then you are not prepared to believe anything i say, to you, all other sources are invalid.


i have already told you, a doctor must make a MEDICAL study
i would not believe the meat industry, not at face value, any more than i believe what the NRA says because i am pro-gun
your evidence is flawed, find something else or be quiet

jasonireland wrote:
all the discussions on this website are extremely repeditive.


because people who know nothing about animals stumble on the PETA website then come running over here and yell "DID YOU KNOW THIS WAS HAPPENING" and we have to reply "most isnt, this is how we know, that which does is taken out of context, it is not that bad"

pretty much sums up the animal rights debate on this board

jasonireland wrote:
and then face comes along and says
face"So what was your point when you started this thread? to inform the masses? now you have feedback and your not willing to back up your ideas?" which obviuosly displays that you did not read the post above where i claim "you choose to believe what suits you"....if you read that and grasped you would understand my frustration at the repeditiveness and futility of arguing with someone about anything to do with your diet or animals. it NEVER produces results, due to the unwillingless of people to be convinced of something they have not read in the mainstream media or is not common knowledge.


you will find many people here very receptive to ideas outside mainstream media, and minds have been changed, but you posted a flawed study, yet continue to hug the high ground claiming that we will believe what we want, SO WILL YOU!!!

it is a good tactic for getting people to consider new ideas, accusing them of having a closed mind, but in this case it doesnt work because _most_ non-vegs here have already looked deep, already understand the truth, because most of us have actually looked into the eyes of a beef animal, have killed wildlife with our own hands, we understand, it is you who do not

too far removed from the mechanics of food gathering