Political Crossfire Forums

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

red dragon wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: mulberrymagnet wrote: Morning chaps, sorry to intrude. Happy Easter all.

Gurb amhlaidh duit.

Red dragon - democracy does not prevail. There is none. I'm fed up arguing this with you.

Only in your opinion.

Not opinion - fact! There is no democracy in NI. This is a statement that cannot be argued against despite your feeble efforts over the last few pages.

red dragon · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1696 Location: Cardiff

Only in your opinion, because you are a minority and the democracy doesn't work to your specific ends IE the unification of Ireland as a pure catholic country.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

red dragon wrote: Only in your opinion, because you are a minority and the democracy doesn't work to your specific ends IE the unification of Ireland as a pure catholic country.

I don't want a United Ireland, not for the time being anyway. I certainly don't want a "pure Catolic country" as I wouldn't consider even myself as a Catholic.

What I want is for the people that I vote for to make the decisions that affect me - i.e. politicians in a NI executive. Nothing to do with a united Ireland.

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

De Bhaldraithe wrote: red dragon wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: mulberrymagnet wrote: Morning chaps, sorry to intrude. Happy Easter all.

Gurb amhlaidh duit.

Red dragon - democracy does not prevail. There is none. I'm fed up arguing this with you.

Only in your opinion.

Not opinion - fact! There is no democracy in NI. This is a statement that cannot be argued against despite your feeble efforts over the last few pages.

i could be wrong here, but did not the people decide, in free and fair elections, how they wanted their destiny to be decided?

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

De Bhaldraithe wrote: red dragon wrote: Only in your opinion, because you are a minority and the democracy doesn't work to your specific ends IE the unification of Ireland as a pure catholic country.

I don't want a United Ireland, not for the time being anyway. I certainly don't want a "pure Catolic country" as I wouldn't consider even myself as a Catholic.

What I want is for the people that I vote for to make the decisions that affect me - i.e. politicians in a NI executive. Nothing to do with a united Ireland.

Did the majority vote with you? Or are you in the minority?

red dragon · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1696 Location: Cardiff

De Bhaldraithe wrote: red dragon wrote: Only in your opinion, because you are a minority and the democracy doesn't work to your specific ends IE the unification of Ireland as a pure catholic country.

I don't want a United Ireland, not for the time being anyway. I certainly don't want a "pure Catolic country" as I wouldn't consider even myself as a Catholic.

What I want is for the people that I vote for to make the decisions that affect me - i.e. politicians in a NI executive. Nothing to do with a united Ireland.

Therefore it's not a democracy in your opinion because it does not deliver what you want.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

www.dictionary.com defines democracy as the following:

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This is not an apt description of the political system in NI. FACT!

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

I was in the majority in voting for the GFA. Is that what you are refering to?

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

De Bhaldraithe wrote: www.dictionary.com defines democracy as the following:

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This is not an apt description of the political system in NI. FACT!

Yes, and the CaMbridge Dictionary (which would you believe?), defines it as;

".. the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:".

Do those in NI not vote in the UK elections then?

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

mulberrymagnet wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: www.dictionary.com defines democracy as the following:

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This is not an apt description of the political system in NI. FACT!

Yes, and the CaMbridge Dictionary (which would you believe?), defines it as;

".. the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:".

Do those in NI not vote in the UK elections then?

Is that not just a more wordy definition of the one I provided?

We do vote in the UK elections. We did not however elect Peter Hain. Do you see where I'm going with this?

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

De Bhaldraithe wrote: mulberrymagnet wrote: De Bhaldraithe wrote: www.dictionary.com defines democracy as the following:

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This is not an apt description of the political system in NI. FACT!

Yes, and the CaMbridge Dictionary (which would you believe?), defines it as;

".. the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:".

Do those in NI not vote in the UK elections then?

Is that not just a more wordy definition of the one I provided?

We do vote in the UK elections. We did not however elect Peter Hain. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Er, no? We didn't elect Patricia Hewitt to her job either, we elected a g'ment to make those sorts of decisions for us, and put idiots like her in place. You had the choice, and you seem to be in a minority.

I think its quite a world away from your definition.

Seabird · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Philadelphia

red dragon,

I first would like to make it very clear that I am NOT a man and definitely not Patrick.

Your posts remind me of a cat chasing his tail.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

mulberrymagnet wrote:

Er, no? We didn't elect Patricia Hewitt to her job either, we elected a g'ment to make those sorts of decisions for us, and put idiots like her in place. You had the choice, and you seem to be in a minority.

I think its quite a world away from your definition.

The people of Leicester West elected Patricia Hewitt. Of course she is representative of them in her role as an MP. She has the additional responsibility of being a Cabinet Minister. That is all well and good.

Peter Hain was elected by the people of Neath. He, as Patricia is with regards to the people of Leicester West, is representative and accountable to the people of Neath. He also has the additional responsibility of being a Cabinet Minister. However, his Ministry is quite a different one. He, effectively governs six whole counties on his tod, while Ms Hewitt simply rules over Trade. The two positions are not comparable.

We had what choice exactly? We had no say in who rules this little statelet.

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

Of course you had a say. As soon as things get settled, there'll be a little more responsibility for you. But not now, for either side. The way our system works, is that ministers get selected from MP's. And a majority placed their faith in TB to select someone, and he has. PH has done a great job. To my mind, he's a great outside bet when Blair goes.

You may not like the system, but the people have voted for it for centuries.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

mulberrymagnet wrote: Of course you had a say. As soon as things get settled, there'll be a little more responsibility for you. But not now, for either side.

Elaborate. How did I have a say?

mulberrymagnet wrote:
The way our system works, is that ministers get selected from MP's.

I know.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
And a majority placed their faith in TB to select someone, and he has.

Yes. He has selected one man to govern NI - no Irish man voted for this man. We cannot unelect him. He is not accountable to us in the slightest. He passes laws that undergo next to no scrutiny and they are more akin to orders of decree than debatable and editable bills.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
PH has done a great job. To my mind, he's a great outside bet when Blair goes.

Isn't that post already ready to be snapped up by a certain fella with a red case?

Oh and I know, he has done a great job, like I have said previously.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
You may not like the system, but the people have voted for it for centuries.

Who in NI has voted for direct rule?

mulberrymagnet · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 158

De Bhaldraithe wrote: mulberrymagnet wrote: Of course you had a say. As soon as things get settled, there'll be a little more responsibility for you. But not now, for either side.

Elaborate. How did I have a say?

Sorry, are you from Eire? If so, you're not entitled to a say, sorry.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
The way our system works, is that ministers get selected from MP's.

I know.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
And a majority placed their faith in TB to select someone, and he has.

Yes. He has selected one man to govern NI - no Irish man voted for this man. We cannot unelect him. He is not accountable to us in the slightest. He passes laws that undergo next to no scrutiny and they are more akin to orders of decree than debatable and editable bills.

Because NI isn't 'Irish', its part of Great Britain, would we allow the French a say?

mulberrymagnet wrote:
PH has done a great job. To my mind, he's a great outside bet when Blair goes.

Isn't that post already ready to be snapped up by a certain fella with a red case?

Oh and I know, he has done a great job, like I have said previously.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
You may not like the system, but the people have voted for it for centuries.

Who in NI has voted for direct rule?

The same sort of people who vote for it, in England, Scotland, Wales...

Pebble · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 1143

Quote: He passes laws that undergo next to no scrutiny and they are more akin to orders of decree than debatable and editable bills.

You're going to need to source that. Have you got evidence that he rules by decree? I can't find anything on it really.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

Pebble wrote: Quote: He passes laws that undergo next to no scrutiny and they are more akin to orders of decree than debatable and editable bills.

You're going to need to source that. Have you got evidence that he rules by decree? I can't find anything on it really.

Well I did say that they are akin to orders of decree.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/northernireland/ni-oic.htm

This is the best I can find. They are orders in council. Basically, the Bill is either accepted in it's entirity or rejected. It cannot be amended. Also, the Bills are normally discussed late at night with a near empty house with next to no interaction or debate.

I don't think that link does it justice, I'll look for a decent one.

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

This is a better source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_in_council

De Bhaldraithe · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Éire

mulberrymagnet wrote:
Sorry, are you from Eire? If so, you're not entitled to a say, sorry.

We'll see come November.

mulberrymagnet wrote:
Because NI isn't 'Irish', its part of Great Britain, would we allow the French a say?

OK then I'll rephrase that to say that no "Northern Irish" man has voted to elect him. Happy?

mulberrymagnet wrote:
The same sort of people who vote for it, in England, Scotland, Wales...
[/quote]

They couldn't be the same sort of people - those people are English, Scottish and Welsh respectively. And why would they vote for an issue on Northern Ireland?