Political Crossfire Forums

[De Bhaldraithe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4877650.stm


So Dennis Donaldson has been killed in his remote hideout in Donegal. Another obvious balls-up for the peace process. All over shocked reactions from the politicians here.

What are the thoughts?

[thundertaker]

I thought the writing was on the wall for him as soon as he was tracked down by that newspaper and insisted he was unarmed, unprotected and wouldn't be running away.....

[AKAMad]

I'm surprised he lasted that long. Some poor sod has got to be last one killed in this war, let's hope it is him.

[thundertaker]

My first instinct is to say it was dissident republicans who want to f**k up the ceasefire. This isn't going to make Sinn Fein any more popular, even if they do deny having anything to do with it.....

[AKAMad]

thundertaker wrote: My first instinct is to say it was dissident republicans who want to f**k up the ceasefire. This isn't going to make Sinn Fein any more popular, even if they do deny having anything to do with it.....

:lol: My second instinct was that it was Loyalists who want to f@@k up the ceasefire :lol:

[thundertaker]

AKAMad wrote: thundertaker wrote: My first instinct is to say it was dissident republicans who want to f**k up the ceasefire. This isn't going to make Sinn Fein any more popular, even if they do deny having anything to do with it.....

:lol: My second instinct was that it was Loyalists who want to f@@k up the ceasefire :lol:

If loyalists were going to f**k up the ceasefire by brutally torturing someone to death, they'd probably want to kill a prominent republican or nationalist rather someone who was on 'their' side......

[AKAMad]

thundertaker wrote: AKAMad wrote: thundertaker wrote: My first instinct is to say it was dissident republicans who want to f**k up the ceasefire. This isn't going to make Sinn Fein any more popular, even if they do deny having anything to do with it.....

:lol: My second instinct was that it was Loyalists who want to f@@k up the ceasefire :lol:

If loyalists were going to f**k up the ceasefire by brutally torturing someone to death, they'd probably want to kill a prominent republican or nationalist rather someone who was on 'their' side......

Donaldson, might have been on 'their side, but he was now useless. They are not fussy who they kill, it is a smart move foe them. Of course, it could be anybody - that's NI. We will never know,

[Erin]

Hi there, I am new to this forum. Can I be so bold as to interject my opinions in this discussion?

In the Irish times today, three separate articles point the finger at republicans and make very little reference to the possibility that British secret services carried out this assassination.

I wonder... why they think that MI5\ British secret services didn't kill Donaldson?

For the IRA to be linked to Donaldson's death would completely undermine its strategy. Nevertheless, the DUP and sections of the media, largely because of their own bias, claim his killing could only have been carried out by the IRA. Others allow for the possibility of IRA volunteers acting unofficially, individual republicans or dissidents aiming to scupper the peace process on the eve of a major announcement about the future of the Assembly by the British and Irish premiers in Armagh.

Few in the media or among mainstream political parties have dared to consider British involvement.

Denis Donaldson, for whatever reason, would not reveal to his former comrades how the British "turned" him into becoming an agent, nor the detail and extent of his betrayal. He was a liability and still had secrets about Stormontgate, amongst others: dangerous secrets which could potentially damage his British superiors.

Why would British involvement, rogue or otherwise, seem so fantastical? We know that members of British intelligence and the Special Branch ran loyalist murder squads; that as far back as the 1970s the Garda Siochana were infiltrated by the British; that during the conflict they allowed their agents in the IRA - such as "Stakeknife" - to kill. They allowed other agents to kill soldiers and policemen in order to establish and maintain their subversive credentials. In a desperate attempt to thwart Sir John Stevens' inquiry they even burned down his offices! It was certainly a dirty war.

The media is so conditioned to be hostile to the republican movement that it does a disservice to the public by not exploring all the possibilities, however unpalatable the possible conclusions. Why doesn't some MP ask the British prime minister in the House of Commons if he can he rule out the possibility of state involvement in the assassination of Denis Donaldson?

I would welcome your views.

[thundertaker]

Quote: Why doesn't some MP ask the British prime minister in the House of Commons if he can he rule out the possibility of state involvement in the assassination of Denis Donaldson?

Maybe they could if it wasn't for the fact they refuse to represent their consituents in the House of Commons......

[AKAMad]

Erin wrote: Hi there, I am new to this forum. Can I be so bold as to interject my opinions in this discussion?

In the Irish times today, three separate articles point the finger at republicans and make very little reference to the possibility that British secret services carried out this assassination.

I wonder... why they think that MI5\ British secret services didn't kill Donaldson?

For the IRA to be linked to Donaldson's death would completely undermine its strategy. Nevertheless, the DUP and sections of the media, largely because of their own bias, claim his killing could only have been carried out by the IRA. Others allow for the possibility of IRA volunteers acting unofficially, individual republicans or dissidents aiming to scupper the peace process on the eve of a major announcement about the future of the Assembly by the British and Irish premiers in Armagh.

Few in the media or among mainstream political parties have dared to consider British involvement.

Denis Donaldson, for whatever reason, would not reveal to his former comrades how the British "turned" him into becoming an agent, nor the detail and extent of his betrayal. He was a liability and still had secrets about Stormontgate, amongst others: dangerous secrets which could potentially damage his British superiors.

Why would British involvement, rogue or otherwise, seem so fantastical? We know that members of British intelligence and the Special Branch ran loyalist murder squads; that as far back as the 1970s the Garda Siochana were infiltrated by the British; that during the conflict they allowed their agents in the IRA - such as "Stakeknife" - to kill. They allowed other agents to kill soldiers and policemen in order to establish and maintain their subversive credentials. In a desperate attempt to thwart Sir John Stevens' inquiry they even burned down his offices! It was certainly a dirty war.

The media is so conditioned to be hostile to the republican movement that it does a disservice to the public by not exploring all the possibilities, however unpalatable the possible conclusions. Why doesn't some MP ask the British prime minister in the House of Commons if he can he rule out the possibility of state involvement in the assassination of Denis Donaldson?

I would welcome your views.

So, the British kill a man in a conspiracy and their first public statement is to say that it will not change their policy at all. :!:
Paranoia :wink:

[Erin]

Paranoid???? :!?:

Here is the full text of the statement that was issued by the Pat Finucane Centre on behalf of the Donaldson family.

Quote: PRESS STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE DONALDSON FAMILY

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

”Denis was a loving husband, a devoted father and grandfather and a good brother. The events of recent months have been very difficult for our family.

In December, Denis left his home in Belfast and moved to Donegal where it was his desire that he be left alone to rebuild his life. Unfortunately, he continued to be pursued by sections of the media, some of whom gave details about his whereabouts.

On Tuesday 4th April, Denis was murdered. We do not know by whom. But the difficult situation which our family has been put in is the direct result of the activities of the Special Branch and British Intelligence agencies.

We acknowledge the speedy statement from the IRA disassociating themselves from this murder. We believe that statement to be true.

We would ask those politicians and media commentators who have sought to use this tragedy to score cheap political points to stop doing so.

In the next few days, Denis will return home to Belfast to be with his family for one last time and to be buried. The funeral will be private and we would ask the media to respect our privacy at this time.

Finally, we wish to express our deep gratitude to friends, neighbours and the wider community for the compassion, solidarity and sympathy given to our family throughout this ordeal.”

[De Bhaldraithe]

AKAMad wrote:
So, the British kill a man in a conspiracy and their first public statement is to say that it will not change their policy at all. :!:
Paranoia :wink:


The MI5 and the rest of the British Spooks that could have been responsible for this murder have nothing whatsoever to do with the British of which you speak so that statement is irrelevant.

[Erin]

I agree with your opinion DB. The truth of the matter is we will probably never know who killed him, it could most likely be a family member whose loved one was murdered, or a dissident volunteer holding a grudge or indeed some part of british government. It doesn't really matter who, everyone with motive seems to be happy he is dead. And the state of affairs are the same politically.

I feel sorry for his family, but for him, I think he knew his fate. He actually ended up dying for the Republican cause that he was dedicated to at one time and those beliefs should have been unshakeable before he turned "tout" and informer.

This is not someone who bowed under pressure or who gave information for a time under the compulsion of blackmail, but someone who ‘turned’ and became a willing agent of the British over decades. For both agents (Donaldson and his military counterpart, Scappaticci) their morale and republican consciousness had collapsed and they had accepted the imperialist ideology that they had once been willing to fight to the death.

What did they gain in the end? Nothing

[De Bhaldraithe]

Erin wrote: It doesn't really matter who, everyone with motive seems to be happy he is dead. And the state of affairs are the same politically.


Not quite. My family and several familes have been affetced by his lies and deceit yet none of us are happy to see this scumbag dead. Although he has undoubtedly received all he has deserved, the political progress is now in tatters once again because of this excuse for a human being. He destroyed the assembly three years ago with the "spy-ring" which is beyond a joke, and now in his death, he has ruined any real chance of "Northern Ireland" having any real say in the issues that affect our "state". Paisley and his friends will not join in an executive, therefore we shall be governed indefinitely by the British with a slight say for the Irish government as far as I perceive it. I hope to God that they will but realistically, I cannot say that I think they will.

The state of affairs are very much different in my opinion as now the DUP have their same old excuse to put things on the back-burner and they think that they can let direct rule go on for another while. Let's see how they react when their salaries are axed and Irish TD's are having a say in the running of "NI" - I think we'll begin to see a different attitude then.

However, I must stress that all of this depends on the degree of "joint authority" that we see come in after November - it will all depend on the legislation that has (I'm sure) already been drafted up to see what degree we are talking about here.

I don't think Paisley and his comrades will be too comfortable with Ministers of Bertie Ahern's government "co-controlling" the six counties while he is waiting in line at the dole office - it remains to be seen. Bring on November!

[Kt]

Nosd'lanod Sined is the worm that crawls under the beautiful flower with poison spikes.

He had it Coming, IRA FTW... w00t

[Erin]

DB Wrote:
Quote: The state of affairs are very much different in my opinion as now the DUP have their same old excuse to put things on the back-burner and they think that they can let direct rule go on for another while. Let's see how they react when their salaries are axed and Irish TD's are having a say in the running of "NI" - I think we'll begin to see a different attitude then.

However, I must stress that all of this depends on the degree of "joint authority" that we see come in after November - it will all depend on the legislation that has (I'm sure) already been drafted up to see what degree we are talking about here.

I don't think Paisley and his comrades will be too comfortable with Ministers of Bertie Ahern's government "co-controlling" the six counties while he is waiting in line at the dole office - it remains to be seen. Bring on November!

DB, Fáilte ar ais. Conas atá tú?

Yes I read that article also (by Suzanne Breen, Sunday Tribune Dec. 2005), but that was before Donaldson was killed. However, I think the landscape has changed since his death.

The Taoiseach and the Prime Minister are pressing ahead with their eagerly anticipated Armagh visit despite the shocking and extraordinary events of the past day and a half. It’s a positive thing, of course, that Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have not been blown off course by the winds of vagary and circumstance as they have so often in the past.

That said, there remains a danger that the baseless attempts by many to pin the blame for the killing of Denis Donaldson on mainstream republicans may embolden the two governments into pressing ahead with a back-handed plan to green-light some kind of devolution-lite at Stormont. Straws in the wind tell us that what may be unveiled in Armagh today is, in effect, a shadow assembly under the thumb of direct-rule ministers and with no cutting edge in the shape of an executive with powers.

The plan seems too facile to be even worthy of consideration by any practical and realistic politicians, but for what it’s worth, it is this.

Are you sitting comfortably? Good, then we’ll begin. The assembly will be restored but not the executive. The toothless assembly cannot and will not legislate – how could it? Instead, it will act as the magical catalyst for parties to come together and hammer out agreement on how the executive can be restored. Unionists and nationalists will convene in the chamber for a few weeks or months, talking about whatever comes into their heads – scrutinising, the governments will probably call it. And when they grow tired of that, there’s a big long break for the marching season, after which they will return energised and refreshed for another love-in to put together the final details of the plan to restore the executive, which we may see some time around November.

What we have here is, to all intents and purposes, a DUP wish-list. Nothing would please their provincial egos more than to be part of some functioning political entity – no matter how half-baked and pointless – while at the same time continuing to refuse to engage with the largest nationalist party. This way, they get to play toy politicians while, crucially, still being able to beat their chest and say they never had anything to do with Sinn Féin.

At what point exactly do Bertie and Tony think the DUP will stop glaring balefully across the chamber at Sinn Féin and invite them across for a chinwag?

The truth is, of course, that this entire plan is another move away from the Good Friday Agreement and not, as the governments would tell us, a move towards it. The assembly was elected to form a power-sharing government, not to sit in a room talking about things over which it has no more control than the Stormont cleaners and security staff.

Going back into a fully functioning and meaningful Stormont was a difficult enough thing for republican politicians to sell to their electorate. How much more difficult will it be for them to sell the idea of a return to a Stormont moulded solely to the requirements of unionism?

http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.

What does this affair indicate for the future of the Good Friday Agreement? All of the structures are collapsed, the main strategy is to continue the race to the right in the hope that arch-bigot Ian Paisley can be persuaded to became prime minister, the republican movement at the cornerstone of the agreement is discredited internally and externally and the British are now processing the final peace of legislation meant to copperfasten the agreement in the teeth of opposition from everyone, including (at least publicly) Sinn Fein!

Slán, Bain taithneamh as an deireadh seachtaine


Erin :)

[AKAMad]

De Bhaldraithe wrote:
The MI5 and the rest of the British Spooks that could have been responsible for this murder have nothing whatsoever to do with the British of which you speak so that statement is irrelevant.

Well, the dissident spook theory might have been true 20 years ago, but :-

1. This murder is so obviously not in our interest.
2. Our Spooks are rather busy at the moment.
3. He could have been murdered to give the Protestants an excuse to be obstructive pains in the arse, But they have always been able to find their own excuses for that, so why bother :!?:

I know you have been brought up to think the English are behind everything. You should at least credit us with a little common sense.

If you want an English murder conspiracy theory, wait till Ian Paisley dies peacefully in his bed. That one I might buy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[De Bhaldraithe]

Erin wrote:

Slán, Bain taithneamh as an deireadh seachtaine

Erin :)

Oh bhain mé! Is tá mé ag fulaignt anois :lol:

I agree totally with your views on the situation. You couldn't be more right. I think at some stage, Paisley will have to swallow some pride and accept that they have to sit in an executive with SF. Whether or not they accept this inevitability before November is another thing.

This "talking shop" that is being re-called in May is an absolute joke to be honest. I see no point in it whatsoever. I think you have it nailed in referring to it as a "love-in" - I think the governments think that while sitting up in Stormont "playing politics" Paisley and co can learn to play fair and share in the games with the shinners. Effectively, this assembly will be doing nothing from May until the Summer break - I assume they will be expected to simply discuss issues regarding the appointments of First and Deputy First Ministers and issues to do with drawing up committees and executive departments. How can they do this when the DUP will refuse to compromise? Like I said, I think it's only an inevitability before they do.

I'll be interested to see what exactly the parties do in this shadow assembly, which of course is what it is. Perhaps they will discuss proper issues such as education, the environment, water taxes, etc, etc. Time will tell, time will tell.


Dala an scéil, carb as duit in Éirinn? Cuirim i gcás nach bhfuil tú ó Chúige Ulaidh ó do chuid Gaeilge (Conas atá tú)?

Slán.

[De Bhaldraithe]

AKAMad wrote:
Well, the dissident spook theory might have been true 20 years ago, but :-

1. This murder is so obviously not in our interest.
2. Our Spooks are rather busy at the moment.
3. He could have been murdered to give the Protestants an excuse to be obstructive pains in the arse, But they have always been able to find their own excuses for that, so why bother :!?:

I know you have been brought up to think the English are behind everything. You should at least credit us with a little common sense.

If you want an English murder conspiracy theory, wait till Ian Paisley dies peacefully in his bed. That one I might buy. :lol: :lol: :lol:


1. By "our interest" who exactly are you referring to. I'm talking about the MI5 and high up British intelligence, not the average Brit on the street. How is it of no interest to them? What if Donaldson were to spill the beans on how they turned him. I wonder what on earth Donaldson could have been threatened with or what could have been done to such a high up Republican to make him turn. Well we won't know because he's dead. Handy for the MI5.

2. Doing what?

3. I agree. Sure that is exactly what they have now. A brilliant excuse to be a pain in the arse - just like the Northern Bank, just like Robert McCartney, just like the spy ring, etc, etc. If a loyalist death squad had the intelligence to do this and were so anti-agreement that they wanted the process halted again, of course this would be a very clever move for them. But of course, the intelligence is the key factor. Hmmm, lets see where could they have gotten help from? Tough one. :evil:


I don't think the English are behind everything. In truth, my honest opinion is that it was a lone anti-agreement republican who wanted to get his own back on Donaldson for something Donalson has done to affect them in the past. That's just my opinion. I was just giving possible theories earlier, all of which are viable.

[red dragon]

De Bhaldraithe wrote: AKAMad wrote:
Well, the dissident spook theory might have been true 20 years ago, but :-

1. This murder is so obviously not in our interest.
2. Our Spooks are rather busy at the moment.
3. He could have been murdered to give the Protestants an excuse to be obstructive pains in the arse, But they have always been able to find their own excuses for that, so why bother :!?:

I know you have been brought up to think the English are behind everything. You should at least credit us with a little common sense.

If you want an English murder conspiracy theory, wait till Ian Paisley dies peacefully in his bed. That one I might buy. :lol: :lol: :lol:


1. By "our interest" who exactly are you referring to. I'm talking about the MI5 and high up British intelligence, not the average Brit on the street. How is it of no interest to them? What if Donaldson were to spill the beans on how they turned him. I wonder what on earth Donaldson could have been threatened with or what could have been done to such a high up Republican to make him turn. Well we won't know because he's dead. Handy for the MI5.

2. Doing what?

3. I agree. Sure that is exactly what they have now. A brilliant excuse to be a pain in the arse - just like the Northern Bank, just like Robert McCartney, just like the spy ring, etc, etc. If a loyalist death squad had the intelligence to do this and were so anti-agreement that they wanted the process halted again, of course this would be a very clever move for them. But of course, the intelligence is the key factor. Hmmm, lets see where could they have gotten help from? Tough one. :evil:


I don't think the English are behind everything. In truth, my honest opinion is that it was a lone anti-agreement republican who wanted to get his own back on Donaldson for something Donalson has done to affect them in the past. That's just my opinion. I was just giving possible theories earlier, all of which are viable.

Are you freaking nuts or something??? Why the hell would MI5 kill him?? They are an intelligence gathering body, not a bunch of assasins. It's like saying the FBI are killers.................you numpty.

It's no big secret how he was recruited, he was a greedy bugger who liked money, simple as that really. It's fairly easy to recruit people anyway, why are you pretending it is a big secret. Three things to recruit people are:

1. Money
2. Revenge or a power shift in organisation
3. Ideology

Wow look at that i just did me some thinking


:roll: :roll:

Ex members or serving members of the IRA killed him for probably locking a load of them up for bombing or killing like the scumbags are in the first place and wanted to enact revenge. How the hell you can seriously consider MI5 which are far too overstretched with domestic fundamentalist terrorism, I'll never know. Let me gues they killed Princess Di also to stop the British monarchy from becoming muslim :roll: :roll: :roll: Your a fruit mate pure and simple.

PS from my personel experiences and story that i have heard there were loads of double agents in the IRA all vying for power to control the NI drug trade, getting their rivals locked up for profit..............your living in dream land you moon bat.