Political Crossfire Forums

[njeinstein]

When looking at Russia (S.U.) in the larger frame, the U.S.'s "victory" has been more detrimental to Russia than most outcomes of other wars. As bad leaders were consecutively in power, the countries economy fell dramatically. It's kind of to bad, such a great country, accent, and food...

[Dongfanghong]

25% of the World is under Socialism where 100 years ago 0% of the world was. If you go a hundred more years into the future, who can say whether it will be 50%, 75% or 100%. Right now Socialism's status in the world has steadily increased and consolidated itself by defeating the forces of Modern Revisionism in the forms of Kautskyism, Menshevism, Trotskyism, Khruschevism, Ultra-Leftism, Ultra-Rightism and Dogmatism in-addition to the Soviet Social-Imperialism.

No one can deny that history is turning, simply look at 1906 and then 2006, where the fastest growing economies are all Socialist. Where is your Capitalism going? In the trashcan to lie with Feudalism and Slave society.

[Jehan]

Dongfanghong wrote: No one can deny that history is turning, simply look at 1906 and then 2006, where the fastest growing economies are all Socialist. Where is your Capitalism going? In the trashcan to lie with Feudalism and Slave society.

What is that socialism, Dong? Let me tell you: your socialism is the sweatshops and factories, where young children toil for scandalously low wages that could not provide for a dog, let alone a human being, where they become adults before they reach 18 as the work turns them into old men and women. It is the mass-graves of those who died in Stalin's Purges, Mao's Great Leap Forward and his so-called Cultural Revolution, of North Korea's self-induced famines. It is embodied not in your Proletariat, but in a select group of psychopaths who slaughtered millions to achieve their ends. Your socialism is a corruption of Marxist beliefs intended to benefit the Party members who gain wealth off the backs of the poor who are enslaved for the purposes of the state. Your socialism is an empty hulk of corruption and death, that embodies itself as slavery even as, with astounding moral hypocracy, the leaders have the audaciousness to lecture others on rights, as they criticize the splinter in my eye while they fail to notice the gigantic log of double-standard in their own. That is socialism. It is misery embodied on earth.

[Protostar]

Jehan wrote: Dongfanghong wrote: No one can deny that history is turning, simply look at 1906 and then 2006, where the fastest growing economies are all Socialist. Where is your Capitalism going? In the trashcan to lie with Feudalism and Slave society.

What is that socialism, Dong? Let me tell you: your socialism is the sweatshops and factories, where young children toil for scandalously low wages that could not provide for a dog, let alone a human being, where they become adults before they reach 18 as the work turns them into old men and women. It is the mass-graves of those who died in Stalin's Purges, Mao's Great Leap Forward and his so-called Cultural Revolution, of North Korea's self-induced famines. It is embodied not in your Proletariat, but in a select group of psychopaths who slaughtered millions to achieve their ends. Your socialism is a corruption of Marxist beliefs intended to benefit the Party members who gain wealth off the backs of the poor who are enslaved for the purposes of the state. Your socialism is an empty hulk of corruption and death, that embodies itself as slavery even as, with astounding moral hypocracy, the leaders have the audaciousness to lecture others on rights, as they criticize the splinter in my eye while they fail to notice the gigantic log of double-standard in their own. That is socialism. It is misery embodied on earth.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Jari]

Dongfanghong wrote: 25% of the World is under Socialism where 100 years ago 0% of the world was. If you go a hundred more years into the future, who can say whether it will be 50%, 75% or 100%. Right now Socialism's status in the world has steadily increased and consolidated itself by defeating the forces of Modern Revisionism in the forms of Kautskyism, Menshevism, Trotskyism, Khruschevism, Ultra-Leftism, Ultra-Rightism and Dogmatism in-addition to the Soviet Social-Imperialism.

No one can deny that history is turning, simply look at 1906 and then 2006, where the fastest growing economies are all Socialist. Where is your Capitalism going? In the trashcan to lie with Feudalism and Slave society.

To make the 25% bigger you Chinese have to start making even more babies :lol: Or are you suggesting that China is starting to "spread" your wonderful ideas to other nations later on?

All the Chinese growth is based on western investments, because simply its cheaper to have 1000 little Chinese to build things by hand rather than having 10 guys back home operating robots. So far its gone well but guys like you, communists after all with ideas like that. I can easily see that India, the worlds largest democracy will eventually draw the western investments, beeing a commonwealth nation i would prefer it to be the factory of the world. Altough it has the downsides in it aswell, i've heard that in many parts in China you need to boil your veggies before eating cause its kind a polluted out there.

[superskippy]

Jehan wrote: Dongfanghong wrote: No one can deny that history is turning, simply look at 1906 and then 2006, where the fastest growing economies are all Socialist. Where is your Capitalism going? In the trashcan to lie with Feudalism and Slave society.

What is that socialism, Dong? Let me tell you: your socialism is the sweatshops and factories, where young children toil for scandalously low wages that could not provide for a dog, let alone a human being, where they become adults before they reach 18 as the work turns them into old men and women. It is the mass-graves of those who died in Stalin's Purges, Mao's Great Leap Forward and his so-called Cultural Revolution, of North Korea's self-induced famines. It is embodied not in your Proletariat, but in a select group of psychopaths who slaughtered millions to achieve their ends. Your socialism is a corruption of Marxist beliefs intended to benefit the Party members who gain wealth off the backs of the poor who are enslaved for the purposes of the state. Your socialism is an empty hulk of corruption and death, that embodies itself as slavery even as, with astounding moral hypocracy, the leaders have the audaciousness to lecture others on rights, as they criticize the splinter in my eye while they fail to notice the gigantic log of double-standard in their own. That is socialism. It is misery embodied on earth.


Utterly and completely fantastic Jehan. Bravo, I say again Bravo.

[Dongfanghong]

Really? I seem to recall China's GDP Per Capita as going to increase by 50% over the next Five-Years? Do I see that under Capitalism? no.

Capitalism is the system of the Holocaust, of the Industrial Revolution and children working in sweat shops, seeing their hands cut from their bodies in factories while the managers don't care and relay the information that they "still have another one". Capitalism is the system that sees Africa enslaved, destroyed and winding up deteriorating as a disease-ridden continent where the native people are still inferior to the descendants of slave-owners. Capitalism is the system which sold those slaves and enslaved the African man and the Native American man. Your Capitalism is a system which benefits a small minority of the world while the rest toil and die to create the blind consumer goods the Capitalist leeches live off of. Your Capitalism is corruption and death which takes the forms of Mobutu Sese Seko, Papa Doc Duvalier, Augusto Pinochet, Adolf Hitler and Idi Amin. It is the embodiment of modern slavery which promotes itself as the only future for those children being brought up in decadence and death, and it is a future we cannot afford to see continue.

It is Capitalism which is the most brutal system imaginable and is embodied in the Bourgeois, which slaughter billions for their own aims. How many children must starve and die of preventable disease before people finally destroy Capitalism? There are two futures, one is exploitation, slaughter, starvation, miserable poverty, illiteracy and disease for the Third World and the other is equality, fraternity, food, wealth, education and medical care for the Third World. The first is Capitalism and the second is Socialism. It is your system which is death and slaughter and it is your system which must be on the losing side of history for there to be a future.

[superskippy]

Quote: of the Industrial Revolution and children working in sweat shops, seeing their hands cut from their bodies in factories while the managers don't care and relay the information that they "still have another one".

You just described the true effects of communism.

Again theres nothing for me really to say Jehan simply orated everything I feel about it into one excellent post. I mean my god Jehan that was brilliantly worded.

[Jehan]

Dongfanghong wrote: Really? I seem to recall China's GDP Per Capita as going to increase by 50% over the next Five-Years? Do I see that under Capitalism? no.

Capitalism is the system of the Holocaust, of the Industrial Revolution and children working in sweat shops, seeing their hands cut from their bodies in factories while the managers don't care and relay the information that they "still have another one". Capitalism is the system that sees Africa enslaved, destroyed and winding up deteriorating as a disease-ridden continent where the native people are still inferior to the descendants of slave-owners. Capitalism is the system which sold those slaves and enslaved the African man and the Native American man. Your Capitalism is a system which benefits a small minority of the world while the rest toil and die to create the blind consumer goods the Capitalist leeches live off of. Your Capitalism is corruption and death which takes the forms of Mobutu Sese Seko, Papa Doc Duvalier, Augusto Pinochet, Adolf Hitler and Idi Amin. It is the embodiment of modern slavery which promotes itself as the only future for those children being brought up in decadence and death, and it is a future we cannot afford to see continue.

Ummm, no. Capitalism is not responsible for those individuals, especially Adolf Hitler, whose economic policies were socialistic in nature, though socially he persued a very different system.

Quote: It is Capitalism which is the most brutal system imaginable and is embodied in the Bourgeois, which slaughter billions for their own aims. How many children must starve and die of preventable disease before people finally destroy Capitalism? There are two futures, one is exploitation, slaughter, starvation, miserable poverty, illiteracy and disease for the Third World and the other is equality, fraternity, food, wealth, education and medical care for the Third World. The first is Capitalism and the second is Socialism. It is your system which is death and slaughter and it is your system which must be on the losing side of history for there to be a future.

:rotf:

This is pure rhetoric. Capitalism has never killed billions, the only possible contender for that title is Socialism. The Bourgeois is not the ruling class, because the people, not the Party (like your tin-can socialist pile of crap) are the ultimate power brokers (and that means every Joe Schmoe of them.) Socialism is in fact the #1 producer of sweatshop labor, debt and wage slavery, and every form of slavery that circumvents the law with impunity. We don't produce those goods that rely on sweatshop labor, in fact, you produce them for us. You are speaking with the staggering moral hypocracy I have outlined, and already proven my point. Capitalism does not have a particularly lovely past, true. But then again, neither does socialism.

[mathurin]

rule of the proletariat indeed





are you in china dongfanghong? have you ever seen this image before?

if you live in china and are about 20 years old its unlikely you have seen this image or heard of the event

i am interested in how the chinese gov has "spun" the event

[Dongfanghong]

You will note incredible differences between Corporativism, as practiced by the Fascists and the Fascist rule-style and the system of Socialism in-general. Adolf Hitler had nothing to do with Socialism other than calling his ideology "National Socialism".

The people do not run anything in a Capitalistic society, there are no worker's councils, people's committees, the people do not manage themself in the large corporations or elect their manager or any other thing that is democracy in government or economy except in name only. The people can choose their president out of a select handful of rich, who are outside of their own class, but they cannot choose anything economically and cannot truly take destiny into their own hands. The sweatshops you claim to occur in Socialism don't exist, the sweatshop capitals of the world are Thailand and India, neither of which is Socialist. In China, you will note the people's standard of living is massively improving and over the past 25 years the average wage has increased almost 7 times over. Under Capitalism, this has not occured. In Africa, you will note the kleptocratic rulers and the increase of disease and poverty is not because of Socialism, but Capitalism. Capitalism has killed billions and Socialism certainly has not.

You can spout propaganda about famines under Socialism, but many of these supposed famines (Great Leap Famine, Ukraine Famine, North Korean famine) never happened at all. You can note that W.E.B. Du Bois and many others visited China in the Great Leap period and noted there were no signs of famine at all in the countryside. There has never been any evidence of a famine under Stalin or even the supposed "Great Terror" and mass-executions of the innocent. "The famine that never was" covers this and how the famine was first "brought to light" by Nazi propaganda and continued under the US when the US got many of them as their new propaganda tools. As for the DPRK, the NLG and many other international delegations noted shortages in some areas, but saw absolutely no signs of famine at all.

Socialism has a quite good past, it turned a backward, feudal and poor society into a progressive, industrialised, wealthy society in 9 years (USSR). It has turned what was once merely a giant carved between Imperialists which once had some of the worst economic statistics on earth into a strong nation with the second-best economic statistics according to many (China). It has rebuilt war-ravaged lands like Vietnam and created some of the best Social statistics on earth in a poor nation like Cuba. Sure, there are those that used Socialism for their own goals and attempted to derail it and restore Capitalism, and several of them succeeded in the long run, but today 25% of the world is Socialist where 100 years ago 0% was. You can deny the credentials of Socialism or slander it, but what you cannot deny is that it is growing and your slanders come from your fears that your precious Capitalist system has lost 1/4 of it's people and will soon lose more.

[mathurin]

Dongfanghong wrote: You will note incredible differences between Corporativism, as practiced by the Fascists and the Fascist rule-style and the system of Socialism in-general. Adolf Hitler had nothing to do with Socialism other than calling his ideology "National Socialism".


the differences between fascism and communism/socialism are academic, because both swiftly become an oppressive dictatorship style of gov, often before they even make the switch to what they claim to be


Dongfanghong wrote:
The people do not run anything in a Capitalistic society, there are no worker's councils, people's committees,


heard of unions??
there are no unions in china, people who complain too loudly are sacked



Dongfanghong wrote:
the people do not manage themself in the large corporations or elect their manager or any other thing that is democracy in government or economy except in name only. The people can choose their president out of a select handful of rich, who are outside of their own class,


the owners of the corporations assets choose who runs them, to do otherwise would be wrong, like letting the neibors decide what kind of windows i put in my home

ill give you the president, but that is a modern effect, in the past there were people of "low birth" who made it to presidency

do try to tell me that chinese elections are anything but a farce
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html

Quote:
no substantial political opposition groups exist, although the government has identified the Falungong spiritual movement and the China Democracy Party as subversive groups

no opposition groups

so for example, the american ballot would read:

mark an X on the line
_George Bush


Dongfanghong wrote:
but they cannot choose anything economically and cannot truly take destiny into their own hands.


incorrect, americans make economic decisions everytime they buy something, dont think that TV is worth the money? dont buy it, if enough people do the same the price will go down or the company will fail
modern capitalism is economic democracy, marx was railing against classic capitalism, unregulated, mild regulation reduces almost all the problems

if i cannot take destiny in my own hands then how does the son of an unskilled worker, a printer, go to college, in china only the priveledged kids get college

Dongfanghong wrote:
The sweatshops you claim to occur in Socialism don't exist, the sweatshop capitals of the world are Thailand and India, neither of which is Socialist.

still in question
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/chin-j31.shtml

Dongfanghong wrote:
In China, you will note the people's standard of living is massively improving and over the past 25 years the average wage has increased almost 7 times over. Under Capitalism, this has not occured. In Africa, you will note the kleptocratic rulers and the increase of disease and poverty is not because of Socialism, but Capitalism. Capitalism has killed billions and Socialism certainly has not.


vastly improving yes, because they started from next to nothing, and mostly the improvement is fueled by american capitalism
face it, china is improving because we buy your crap

you are somewhat correct, capitalism hasnt yet improved at this rate, the difference being that chinas pace is because normal capitalism advanced well beyond china, then came and invested in china



http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
hey look, china has this for GDP
$8.182 trillion

the US has around 12 trillion in GDP


how about per capita GDP for china
$6,300
rank in the world
118 of 232

US per capita GDP
$42,000
rank
5

china may be growing by leaps and bounds, but they have a long way to go



Dongfanghong wrote:
You can spout propaganda about famines under Socialism, but many of these supposed famines (Great Leap Famine, Ukraine Famine, North Korean famine) never happened at all. You can note that W.E.B. Du Bois and many others visited China in the Great Leap period and noted there were no signs of famine at all in the countryside. There has never been any evidence of a famine under Stalin or even the supposed "Great Terror" and mass-executions of the innocent. "The famine that never was" covers this and how the famine was first "brought to light" by Nazi propaganda and continued under the US when the US got many of them as their new propaganda tools. As for the DPRK, the NLG and many other international delegations noted shortages in some areas, but saw absolutely no signs of famine at all.

ill give you the famines because i have heard of no proof, though i dont doubt they existed lets leave them out of this

proof of mass executions of the innocent?
well its hard to tell the guilt of a skeleton
[img]
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/17/russia.gulag.grave/graves.jpg
[/img]
or 9,000
maybe a few dozen could be written off as convicts or something, but mass graves containing 9,000, that can hardly be explained away as anything but an execution, even enemy soldiers are given decent burials


Dongfanghong wrote:
Socialism has a quite good past, it turned a backward, feudal and poor society into a progressive, industrialised, wealthy society in 9 years (USSR). It has turned what was once merely a giant carved between Imperialists which once had some of the worst economic statistics on earth into a strong nation with the second-best economic statistics according to many (China). It has rebuilt war-ravaged lands like Vietnam and created some of the best Social statistics on earth in a poor nation like Cuba. Sure, there are those that used Socialism for their own goals and attempted to derail it and restore Capitalism, and several of them succeeded in the long run, but today 25% of the world is Socialist where 100 years ago 0% was. You can deny the credentials of Socialism or slander it, but what you cannot deny is that it is growing and your slanders come from your fears that your precious Capitalist system has lost 1/4 of it's people and will soon lose more.

in the short 100 years since its birth communism has shown the world the worst of what happens when people truly trust their government

again i ask, where are you getting your information, where do you live?

[Dongfanghong]

Your response seemed suprisingly intelligent. Here is mine:

Fascism is simply Capitalism taken to a more severe level as a result of threats to it, Fascism is indeed repressive and so is Socialism. The primary difference is that Fascism involves the repression of the Proletariat, where Socialism involves the repression of the Bourgeois. They are united in the fact that they are dictatorships, but indeed, so are all states, they are divided in their fundamental nature however.

There are only Socialist union(s) in China. There are many complaints and strikes and most are worked out and involve no police activity. I will use Vietnam as an example of Socialism dealing with a strike. If you look at Vietnam, there were strikes earlier this year and the government looked at it and agreed, raising wages by over 20% in a massive swoop of all workers.

Workers managing their factories and fields is a correct line. In China, 85% of the economy is either state-owned or co-operative, the primary difference being the latter is often groups of peasantry who rent plots of land and till them. Both involve worker-management and management elections and express full economic democracy in accordance with the overall Five-Year Plans. Vietnam, Laos and Cuba show relatively similar numbers. These elections are not a farce, but take place at the most local factory and farm level, they make up the basis of the economy and show the effectiveness of economic democracy. The elections of locals to the People's Committees is the exact same, but in the political field. All local elections, whether political or economic are enshrined with the full amount of democracy.

Your claim that there are no opposition groups is somewhat true, but misleading. The vast, vast majority (over 95%) would agree with the overall line of building Socialism, but within that group there is much disagreement. You will notice the many debates that take place over specific lines and policies and the reversal of lines and policies after much debate. There are many laws which are being changed now that the government is headed by Comrade Hu and Wen, this obviously shows their opposition to some previous policies of Chiang and Chu and thus opposition does indeed exist. If you mean parties which are not the Communist Party of China, there are 8 of them:
-Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang
-China Democratic League
-China Democratic National Construction Association
-China Association for Promoting Democracy
-China Peasants and Workers Democratic Party
-China Party for Public Interest
-September 3rd Society
and
-Taiwan Democratic Self-Government League
You can make an argument that all, despite being fully legal and represented in the NPC, are not powerful, but many tend to have some power. The Vice-Chairman of the NPC currently happens to be in the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang and one of the founders and leaders of the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang, Song Ch'ingling, was elected to the office of President twice.

College means very little, actively running the economy through your own means, democracy in economics is one of the most influential actions that can ever be taken along with political democracy, both of which exist to the fullest level in the People's Republic of China as they exist in all Socialist countries.

China's economy is not fueled by Capitalism, Private industry makes up only 15% of the Chinese economy and this is in joint-ventures, meaning all of these are 50% Socialist owned. China's vast improvements in many of their social spheres, including doubling their life expectancy, occured before the policies of Comrade Teng Hsiao-ping. Even then, you must credit approximately 92.5 percent of all of this to Socialism and Socialist ownership and not Capitalism. Even with that 7.5%, they must obey the laws set forth by the PRC, Socialist law and hence their ability to create a bourgeois in China is destroyed outright and Capitalism can only do little in China where the Socialist industries are still the mainstay of the economy.

That website is Trotskyist and hence fundamentally opposed at all times to Marxism-Leninism and the People's Republic of China. Their sources are Capitalist and I certainly believe just as the Capitalists wished to discredit the correct line of destroying the counter-revolutionaries at Tiananmen, they wish to discredit the correct idea of Socialist economic superiority and will do this through propaganda.

China's GDP(PPP) is the second largest in the world, this being raised from what once was around the second-lowest in the world 60 years ago. In many fields, China has surpassed what at the time of her birth (New China's birth) were some of the most developed Capitalist countries in France and the United Kingdoms. Now she is only behind the USA and in some measurements, Japan. Her growth is phenomenal and despite having a long way to go, she will surpass all Capitalist economies and I do not doubt that at all.

The economic and political democracy of the Socialist system is unmatched by the major Capitalist countries. 25% of the world realizes this democracy and soon, more will. Nepal, India, Philippines, Colombia all have civil wars raging or see vast rises in Communist influence through other means. When the Communist Party of Nepal controls 80% of the countryside and a US government minister even said that if Nepal falls to Communism, it is likely India will by 2025, can you deny then that Socialism is advancing? If you can, I would like to make an appointment to speak to you in 19 years.

As for the picture, one man does not represent the proletariat, especially when you notice there are 4 tanks, who require about 2-4 people to operate, so, at the least you see an 8:1 ratio even within that picture. Now, the Tiananmen incident of 1989 was an issue of Revolution versus Counter-Revolution and Democracy versus Enslavement. As a result of the unsolved contradiction between the peasantry and proletariat, which Chairman Mao warned about, there were many grievances, which were used by intellectuals influenced by the bourgeois to spread a counter-revolutionary line and promote Capitalism. The class struggle continues in some ways under Socialism and it is only aggrevated when contradictions are left unsolved. This Counter-Revolutionary force, no doubt helped by the US and Soviet reactionaries, tried to say that Democracy is represented by the US and Capitalism. But, they were not all that Tiananmen Square brought. You will notice the vast majority of those students did not like the US and Soviets, they were only supportive of the Gang of Four, using Cultural Revolution slogans and making mass-character posters and other practices as they wielded the Red Treasured Book. They represented the Ultra-Leftism of the Chinese past, while some represented it's Ultra-Rightism. The Counter-Revolutionaries were given many chances to address their issues, but many refused to, you will notice that most left the square when told to and only a few stayed. You will also notice that no one died within Tiananmen Square. The Counter-Revolutionary forces were dispersed and many problems addressed over the next few years, inflation was cut down by an increase of price-control and all issues were solved that were brought up.

Unfortunately since then you have seen much of the opposite. The Peasantry has increasingly been left behind by the economic growth and the contradictions between the proletariat and peasantry has not been solved, only reversed. Comrade Wen's "Socialist Countryside" policies should help solve this though.

I will say that skeletons mean nothing. They found millions of skulls in Cambodia, but it is known that only 50,000 were executed and the rest starved or died of bombings under the Lon Nol regime. Actually, enemy soldiers were not given decent burials if you actually look at the war in the Eastern Front. Also, this reminds me of a situation where the US found a mass-grave filled with Poles, they used this propaganda in the 1950s to say Stalin had killed them. But, when they came to realization of this grave in the 1944 period, FDR ordered it looked into and his report, now declassified, said that the Nazi's had done it. Remember, 30 million Soviets died in the Nazi invasion. So, that could easily be either, neither of which implicates Stalin at all. If that was in Siberia however, I could believe that they would be there and neither applies. If it was in Siberia, it would be the graves of the Kulaks who died in labour camps as a result of the Siberian winter which was far more harsh than it normally was during the 1930s. In any event, they make up a minority and the vast majority of them, criminals. (Some may not have been criminals, but were taken out as a personal grudge by the NKVD leaders, who were put on trial for these actions and executed in 1938).

[mathurin]

Dongfanghong wrote: Your response seemed suprisingly intelligent. Here is mine:

smart for a silly capitalist eh?

i wish i could say the same, at best i can say that you have been skillfully filled with pro-chinese propaganda, but since you are willing to discuss this there is definitly hope
Dongfanghong wrote:
Fascism is simply Capitalism taken to a more severe level as a result of threats to it, Fascism is indeed repressive and so is Socialism. The primary difference is that Fascism involves the repression of the Proletariat, where Socialism involves the repression of the Bourgeois. They are united in the fact that they are dictatorships, but indeed, so are all states, they are divided in their fundamental nature however.



Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

every portion of that is what communism has been in practical use, if anyones freedom is affected then everyones freedom is affected, so no matter who you are repressing you are damaging freedoms

if all states were dictatorships then the US would only have a new president following a coup
while one man is at the controls of the nation, he has many many limits put on him by other gov officials and by the people themselves

Dongfanghong wrote:
There are only Socialist union(s) in China. There are many complaints and strikes and most are worked out and involve no police activity. I will use Vietnam as an example of Socialism dealing with a strike. If you look at Vietnam, there were strikes earlier this year and the government looked at it and agreed, raising wages by over 20% in a massive swoop of all workers.


http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01142005.cfm?RenderForPrint=1
an american union

government run unions are worthless because the gov also runs the business

this is like going to a union meeting to b**** about your employer, and seeing the plant manager heading the discussion


Dongfanghong wrote:
Workers managing their factories and fields is a correct line. In China, 85% of the economy is either state-owned or co-operative, the primary difference being the latter is often groups of peasantry who rent plots of land and till them. Both involve worker-management and management elections and express full economic democracy in accordance with the overall Five-Year Plans. Vietnam, Laos and Cuba show relatively similar numbers. These elections are not a farce, but take place at the most local factory and farm level, they make up the basis of the economy and show the effectiveness of economic democracy. The elections of locals to the People's Committees is the exact same, but in the political field. All local elections, whether political or economic are enshrined with the full amount of democracy.

a yahoo search on china management election
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv1-msgr&p=management%20election%20china
in 30 links i saw not one mentioned management elections in china

workers renting lands is not "coop"
it is workers renting land, nothing else, its also a rather classic example of serfdom, not all land renting workers are serfs, but if that is the only thing they can do

i am a management major, and i can tell you that elected business leaders are not good for business


Dongfanghong wrote:
Your claim that there are no opposition groups is somewhat true, but misleading. The vast, vast majority (over 95%) would agree with the overall line of building Socialism, but within that group there is much disagreement. You will notice the many debates that take place over specific lines and policies and the reversal of lines and policies after much debate. There are many laws which are being changed now that the government is headed by Comrade Hu and Wen, this obviously shows their opposition to some previous policies of Chiang and Chu and thus opposition does indeed exist. If you mean parties which are not the Communist Party of China, there are 8 of them:
-Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang
-China Democratic League
-China Democratic National Construction Association
-China Association for Promoting Democracy
-China Peasants and Workers Democratic Party
-China Party for Public Interest
-September 3rd Society
and
-Taiwan Democratic Self-Government League
You can make an argument that all, despite being fully legal and represented in the NPC, are not powerful, but many tend to have some power. The Vice-Chairman of the NPC currently happens to be in the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang and one of the founders and leaders of the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang, Song Ch'ingling, was elected to the office of President twice.



still, you dont ask why there is one party

most communist countries have one party because opposition parties were dissolved, the main reason korea was not allowed to unite through national elections is for just this reason, while the south was bickering about what party wanted control, the communists in the north were outlawing and killing opposition parties

what did that president do while in office? anything?



Dongfanghong wrote:
College means very little, actively running the economy through your own means, democracy in economics is one of the most influential actions that can ever be taken along with political democracy, both of which exist to the fullest level in the People's Republic of China as they exist in all Socialist countries.

have you been to college

most people who havent dismiss it out of hand, i did before i started
we run the economy by choosing our job and fulfilling it, chinese people are just labor

Dongfanghong wrote:
China's economy is not fueled by Capitalism, Private industry makes up only 15% of the Chinese economy and this is in joint-ventures, meaning all of these are 50% Socialist owned. China's vast improvements in many of their social spheres, including doubling their life expectancy, occured before the policies of Comrade Teng Hsiao-ping. Even then, you must credit approximately 92.5 percent of all of this to Socialism and Socialist ownership and not Capitalism. Even with that 7.5%, they must obey the laws set forth by the PRC, Socialist law and hence their ability to create a bourgeois in China is destroyed outright and Capitalism can only do little in China where the Socialist industries are still the mainstay of the economy.


links for these figures?

so china sat down with its own industry leaders and redeveloped things that the capitalist world had done before, i seriously hope you dont believe this, they are adopting or adapting what capitalists beat them too
dont feel bad, the japanese beat america to quality management and efficient management (though in large part because of the support the US gave after WWII)



Dongfanghong wrote:
That website is Trotskyist and hence fundamentally opposed at all times to Marxism-Leninism and the People's Republic of China. Their sources are Capitalist and I certainly believe just as the Capitalists wished to discredit the correct line of destroying the counter-revolutionaries at Tiananmen, they wish to discredit the correct idea of Socialist economic superiority and will do this through propaganda.


but the picture itself, can you discredit it, or the fact that china has virtually erased the incident from its past

so you say it was correct, that they did properly to destroy the democracy demonstrators, then why cover it up, why hide correct actions, even americans dont know what truly happened because the news and media was thrown out before the real s**t started to fly

america has many black marks on its past, but we do not hide them, at least not intentionally


Dongfanghong wrote:
China's GDP(PPP) is the second largest in the world, this being raised from what once was around the second-lowest in the world 60 years ago. In many fields, China has surpassed what at the time of her birth (New China's birth) were some of the most developed Capitalist countries in France and the United Kingdoms. Now she is only behind the USA and in some measurements, Japan. Her growth is phenomenal and despite having a long way to go, she will surpass all Capitalist economies and I do not doubt that at all.


communism is more efficient, as most dictatorships are, while democracies are arguing about what direction to go the dictator can put down his fist and state "that way!"
but the effects of a dictator are worse in many other ways

and while your total capital is large, dont forget that you are a huge nation
so per capita GDP is a better measure, it takes population into account
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
you are 118 in per capita GDP, dont get cocky


Dongfanghong wrote:
The economic and political democracy of the Socialist system is unmatched by the major Capitalist countries. 25% of the world realizes this democracy and soon, more will. Nepal, India, Philippines, Colombia all have civil wars raging or see vast rises in Communist influence through other means. When the Communist Party of Nepal controls 80% of the countryside and a US government minister even said that if Nepal falls to Communism, it is likely India will by 2025, can you deny then that Socialism is advancing? If you can, I would like to make an appointment to speak to you in 19 years.


i would rather speak in 40 years after china has gone capitalist


i have been to the former soviet union, seen the kind of people communism produces, they are (for lack of a better word) listless, they lack initiative, dont think anything they do matters, and. it. didnt.
people who grow up under communism feel that they cant do anything, because they cant, directives come from above, there is no entreprenuership, it is stifled in people, so that soon enough the whole system dissolves

[quote="Dongfanghong"]
As for the picture, one man does not represent the proletariat, especially when you notice there are 4 tanks, who require about 2-4 people to operate, so, at the least you see an 8:1 ratio even within that picture.



Dongfanghong wrote:
Now, the Tiananmen incident of 1989 was an issue of Revolution versus Counter-Revolution and Democracy versus Enslavement. As a result of the unsolved contradiction between the peasantry and proletariat, which Chairman Mao warned about, there were many grievances, which were used by intellectuals influenced by the bourgeois to spread a counter-revolutionary line and promote Capitalism.

oddly enough in america the "intellectuals" tend more towards communism, and are freely allowed to demonstrate protest and speak, the US government has not set upon law-abiding protestors in a very long time

so who was on the side of democracy and who was on the side of enslavement?
please dont try and tell me the individuals at the end of chinas gun were for enslavement, that those being repressed were for enslavement, you cant really think that

Dongfanghong wrote:
The class struggle continues in some ways under Socialism and it is only aggrevated when contradictions are left unsolved. This Counter-Revolutionary force, no doubt helped by the US and Soviet reactionaries, tried to say that Democracy is represented by the US and Capitalism. But, they were not all that Tiananmen Square brought. You will notice the vast majority of those students did not like the US and Soviets, they were only supportive of the Gang of Four, using Cultural Revolution slogans and making mass-character posters and other practices as they wielded the Red Treasured Book. They represented the Ultra-Leftism of the Chinese past, while some represented it's Ultra-Rightism. The Counter-Revolutionaries were given many chances to address their issues, but many refused to, you will notice that most left the square when told to and only a few stayed. You will also notice that no one died within Tiananmen Square. The Counter-Revolutionary forces were dispersed and many problems addressed over the next few years, inflation was cut down by an increase of price-control and all issues were solved that were brought up.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/index.html
The Secretary of State’s intelligence summary for the following morning (Document 13) reports that "deaths from the military assault on Tiananmen Square range from 180 to 500; thousands more have been injured." It also describes how "thousands of civilians stood their ground or swarmed around military vehicles. APCs were set on fire, and demonstrators besieged troops with rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails."


why or what for i dont really care, but a group was repressed and all evidence was removed (at least all that could be within the controlled country) and nothing can make up for that level of repression, even an armed revolt should be available to be read about


Dongfanghong wrote:
I will say that skeletons mean nothing. They found millions of skulls in Cambodia, but it is known that only 50,000 were executed and the rest starved or died of bombings under the Lon Nol regime. Actually, enemy soldiers were not given decent burials if you actually look at the war in the Eastern Front. Also, this reminds me of a situation where the US found a mass-grave filled with Poles, they used this propaganda in the 1950s to say Stalin had killed them. But, when they came to realization of this grave in the 1944 period, FDR ordered it looked into and his report, now declassified, said that the Nazi's had done it. Remember, 30 million Soviets died in the Nazi invasion. So, that could easily be either, neither of which implicates Stalin at all. If that was in Siberia however, I could believe that they would be there and neither applies. If it was in Siberia, it would be the graves of the Kulaks who died in labour camps as a result of the Siberian winter which was far more harsh than it normally was during the 1930s. In any event, they make up a minority and the vast majority of them, criminals. (Some may not have been criminals, but were taken out as a personal grudge by the NKVD leaders, who were put on trial for these actions and executed in 1938).

to summarize your comment
"mass killings were done by someone else or were product of war or were justified cause they were criminals"

inother words you wont believe it no matter what information is presented
please, tell me what it would take to even let you consider that stalin and others killed millions for little reason under communist rule

[Green]

The Communists colapsed and the United States won. Strange way for such a powerful country to loose.

[FCTE]

We toppled their already limp economy by intiating an arms race they couldn't afford to comptete in, but did anyway to thier own demise.

[Norrin Radd]

Ever read Norman Dodd's testimony on Regionalism?

It is very interesting. In my opinion, it is one of the most imprtant key pieces of information any American could read. Of course it is also helpful to do a little background reading on the Reece committee and Mr. Dodd. I would also suggest reading every excerpt you can find from Renee Wormser's book, "Foundations Their Power and Influence."