Political Crossfire Forums

[Rockgod214]

I know there is a poll here somewhere but I was wondering if you think the US won the Cold War or not, why you think that way, and if you know of any books you could recommend

[thefranzkafkafront]

It wasunt so much that America one, more that the Soviet system liberialised and imploded due to it.

[mathurin]

yes, you can buy a pepsi or coke and drink it next to lenins tomb (dont try to piss on the tomb though, they frown on that)


you cant truly say anybody won, because nobody was truly defeated, it wasnt that kind of war, it was like a staring war, and the soviets blinked first, so while i dont claim we won, i do claim that they lost

[superskippy]

It wasnt some glorious victory, but yes anyone with a brain could see that the US "won".

The Stars and Stripes still fly over the White House.

The Sickle and Hammer do not fly over the Kremlin.

If you really want to cut through all the lengthy debate on it thats really the end point. US survived, USSR did not.

[bob.appleyard]

They were left standing. So yeah.

[Dr. Righteous]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: It wasunt so much that America one, more that the Soviet system liberialised and imploded due to it.

That's how we won...

[ndj4523]

Yes we won the cold war.

[Dongfanghong]

The US did not "win" the Cold War. If you say that the Cold War was simply a battle of Socialism versus Capitalism, then the Cold War is not over by a long-shot. However, if you actually say the Cold War was between the USSR and USA, then even then it was the People's Republic of China who played the decisive role in the end of that conflict.

In 1953, Josef Stalin died and the USSR moved away from Socialism and into complete Revisionism, adopting bourgeois-nationalism and rejecting many foundations on which Leninism rests, even discarding the legacy of Comrade Stalin. Chairman Mao Tse-tung rejected Khruschov and then the traitours, Brezhnev and Kosygin and exposed them as counter-revolutionaries and Revisionists. China waged a resolute struggle against the Revisionist line, present in the form of Lin Piao and the Wang-Chang-Chiang-Yao Gang of Four. China defeated the main Revisionists and Ultra-Rightists in the Party by 1977. This split was major and split the entire Communist movement into Anti-Revisionists and Revisionists.

China opposed the USSR at every turn. In the Ogaden War, the USSR supported Ethiopia and China, Somalia. But, that was just the beginning. In the Zimbabwe Civil War, Nicaraguan Civil War, Iran-Iraq War, Ethiopian Civil War, Eritrean War of Independance, Soviet-Afghani War and Sudanese Civil War they opposed each other, with the Chinese sides of all of those wars emerging victorious. China waged an ideological struggle also, exposing every Soviet Revisionist line and exposing the Social-Imperialism and Bourgeois-Nationalism they represented. The USSR began to crumble because it had abandoned Socialism and had turned to Ultra-Rightism and Bourgeois-Nationalism as the foundation of it's country and economy and when any Imperialist country begins to lose it's colonies, it suffers economic decline and that is what happened because of the People's Republic of China's constant stand against them.

Finally, Gorbachev, who represents outright Capitalism, arrived and reversed the Revolution which by that time was basically already dead. He split the USSR and officially ended any chances of the USSR returning to Socialism. But, we had already lost the USSR 35 years earlier, it was no great loss to see the USSR and her puppets fall.

So then, the massive ideological and military struggle against the USSR, the ones that ended in success all involved the USSR versus PRC. It was China that discredited the USSR's claim of "Socialism" and showed their Imperialism and opportunism to the world. If you do think the battle between Socialism and Capitalism is over, then simply look and see that almost 25% of the world is under Socialism and you can easily see the war is not over. But, if you say it was between the USA and USSR, you are leaving out the decisive factor, China.

[superskippy]

Quote: The US did not "win" the Cold War. If you say that the Cold War was simply a battle of Socialism versus Capitalism, then the Cold War is not over by a long-shot. However, if you actually say the Cold War was between the USSR and USA, then even then it was the People's Republic of China who played the decisive role in the end of that conflict.

Really they did, the US pushed an economic catastrophe on the USSR, the weapons systems research crippled the Soviets economy, and then when Gorbachav came to power he tried to reform the country so that the crumbling debt and economy could be contained. He utterly failed and they collapsed, the USA went on stronger then before.

As for Socialism vs Capitalism then yes that war is quite frankly over, Socialism and Communism lie all but defeated. China has a capitalist economy and has joined the WTO, North Korea is Fascist and Totalitarian if anything, the Indo-Chinese states have shifted to capitalism for foriegn economic policy.

Capitalism drives the worlds economy, with no true Socialist government left in existance on the planet. That conflict in reality ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

True some Socialist elements exist on many governments policies, and a few governments may have some heavy socialist principles but no nation left is truly socialist, and all have capitalist principles.

Socialism and Communism meet their deathknell long ago.


Quote: n 1953, Josef Stalin died and the USSR moved away from Socialism and into complete Revisionism, adopting bourgeois-nationalism and rejecting many foundations on which Leninism rests, even discarding the legacy of Comrade Stalin.

Stalin wasnt a communist or a socialist, he was a totaliterian dictator who was a mass murdering insane sociopathic freak.

Quote: China opposed the USSR at every turn. In the Ogaden War, the USSR supported Ethiopia and China, Somalia. But, that was just the beginning. In the Zimbabwe Civil War, Nicaraguan Civil War, Iran-Iraq War, Ethiopian Civil War, Eritrean War of Independance, Soviet-Afghani War and Sudanese Civil War they opposed each other, with the Chinese sides of all of those wars emerging victorious. China waged an ideological struggle also, exposing every Soviet Revisionist line and exposing the Social-Imperialism and Bourgeois-Nationalism they represented.

Your naming wars that for the most part the USSR suported and their sides came out in victory. And China turned to Capitolism sooner than the USSR. As of today it is the largest Capitalist state on the planet.

You sound like an old record of a person who still beleives communism exists in the world governments, or that extremly hilarous position that China is still socialist and capitolist.

China is moving into closer and closer relations with the United States, and as they have massive trade relations, they are also close partners in the WTO, the biggest capitalist trade organization that ever existed.

[Dongfanghong]

The USSR was winning the Cold War before they became Revisionist and the Chinese and the Socialist movement started fighting them. You will note the military expenditure was based out of fighting to spread their Imperialism abroad, a move stopped by the People's Republic.

China is not Capitalist and that is a ridiculous and foolish statement to make, based out of absolutely no analysis. Simply because a country believes in free-trade they are Capitalist? Certainly not. Marxism says that Capitalism is in essence the dictatorship of the bourgeois and Socialism, the dictatorship of the proletariat. In China, the proletariat seized power and are now ruling, economically, indeed China has a market economy, but a market existed under Feudalism also didn't it? A market does not make someone Capitalist, a market economy is simply an economy and all economies are judged on the basis of who benefits and the people see their living standard raised everyday and they certainly own the means of production as all land is owned by the People's Republic. Hence, the character of the Chinese economy is not rested in the bourgeois (for they were overthrown in 1949 and the basic transformation of the economy completed in 1956 and the Petty-bourgeois integrated at that point into the proletariat), because no bourgeois exists. The character is rested in the proletariat and their rule and hence it is very Socialist in nature.

Similarly, the Indo-chinese states have done similar moves. Doi Moi and the New Economic Mechanism are very useful tools which are improving Socialism and guiding them forward toward the goal of Communism. We all know that Communism as an economic stage requires a vast industry, one above the Capitalist industrial levels and neither China nor any other Socialist country has these levels. According to Marxism, the goal of the Primary Stage of Socialism is to raise the productive forces to these levels to reach the goal of Communism and that is exactly what China and the Indo-chinese states are doing.

As for the DPRK, they are certainly not Fascist as I see no signs of Corporativism. What you see now is Capitalism in crisis as the Socialist countries mark higher and higher growth every year while the mainstays of Capitalism in Western Europe grind to a halt and see economic stagnation. The war between Capitalism and Socialism is just beginning and we can easily see the tide turning towards Socialism.

Stalin was a great Comrade, he was one of the greatest Communists to ever live. His dedication to Marxism-Leninism and determination alongside the other Socialist leaders of the USSR such as Molotov and Kalinin raised the USSR from a feudal agricultural society to an industrialized Socialist one in 9 years and then led them to defeating Fascism.

China has not moved to Capitalism at all. The USSR moved into Revisionism and Ultra-Leftism beginning in 1953, this turned into an Ultra-Rightist wave in 1964 and led to stagnation which was then used as justification to restore Capitalism and destroy the USSR by 1991. As for those wars, the USSR lost all of them, save the Ogaden War. Let us look at them:

Zimbabwe Civil War- fought from 1982-1987 between the Communist Parties in Zimbabwe, ZANU, supported by China and the DPRK and ZAPU, supported by the USSR. Won by ZANU when ZAPU surrendered and was merged into ZANU, forming ZANU-PF.

Nicaraguan Civil War- fought from the early 1980s until 1990. FSLN was then defeated by the Contras, who were US and Chinese backed.

Iran-Iraq War- initiated in 1980 and ended in 1988. Iraq, backed by the USA and USSR, invaded Iran, who recieved aid from China and the DPRK. Iran defeated the Iraqi invasion and the war ended in 1988.

Ethiopian Civil War- fought between the Mengistu regime of Ethiopia and the Tigrayan People's Liberation Front, a rebel group backed by China. By 1991, Mengistu was overthrown and the TPLF took power.

Eritrean War of Independance- fought between the EPLF, a Chinese-backed Communist Party and the Ethiopian government of Mengistu. In 1991, Aswara was captured by the EPLF and in 1993 the EPLF took over the new State of Eritrea. Renaming themselves the PFDJ and establishing one-party rule.

Soviet-Afghani War- fought between the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul and the Mujahideen, who were backed by the USA, Pakistan and China. The Mujahideen, under Ahmad Shah Massoud defeated the USSR troops by 1989 and took over Kabul in 1992.

Sudanese Civil War- fought between the Sudanese government, supported by China and the southern rebels. The rebels were backed by the USSR and failed to win the war and take power.

As we can see by those, the USSR didn't win a single one of those wars, but if you look into them, the USSR spent incredible amounts on them. All of these wars also took place in the same time-period. Soviet Imperialism was defeated because of China's determination to stop it across the world and their determination to defeat Revisionism with Marxism-Leninism.

Communism has never actually existed, only Socialism. The goal is to reach Communism, which can only be achieved by increasing the productive forces to a level where it can be attained. China and the Socialist countries of today, making up 25% of the world's population, are on their way to Communism.

Look deep within world politics and notice that Venezuela, Cuba, Belarus, Syria, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Iran and every other Anti-Imperialist, Anti-US force is backed by and recieves substantial aid from the People's Republic of China. The US and China may appear close, but both sides realize that this is simply a temporary cease-fire until the war between Capitalism and Socialism is waged for good, a war which I believe will no doubt end in Chinese victory and thus, the victory of Marxism-Leninism.

Note: I strongly suggest you actually read Marxist theory. The works of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Liu and Teng are easily available. If you take time to read them and read them in a decent fashion, you will easily be able to see the Socialist bloc of today and distinguish them from the Capitalist bloc.

[George W Bush]

cold war was because of the dual superpowers and their enemy status (america vs soviet union)

america was waiting for russia to collapse, and vice versa. though, I think, russia (soviet union at the time) knew what would happen.

america didnt win, but maintained their superpower status - because they did not have any direct say in soviet unions economy, they could not have had much to do with its collapse.

therefore america did not WIN the cold war. it simply thawed out, if you will.

[superskippy]

China is most definatly Capitalist they follow almost every single rule of Capitalism, which by nature is an economic principle. They are members of the largest capitalistic organization on he planet. I also find it hilarous that you dismiss their free market as having no bearing on them being Capitalist even though the free market is the cornerstone of capitalism and the vehemently hated enemy of communism and socialism.

They are capitalist, you can choose to live in the dark and try to deny it, I dont see the need to prove it to you since from what I can tell your already fanatically entrenched in your ideas, and every sensible person knows that China is a capitalist nation, and its governmental structure follows a restricted and restrictive democracy.

[Dongfanghong]

Wrong, the basis of the difference between Capitalism and Socialism is who rules, the Bourgeois or the Proletariat. You will notice that the early USSR under Vladimir Ilyich Lenin had a market economy as did Tito's Yugoslavia, a nation also considered to be Socialist. Markets have no bearing on who controls the means of production assuming it is a market regulated and controlled by the state and people. In China, 85% of industry, 95% of banks and media are all publically owned and land is owned by the PRC. Co-operatives and SOEs make up the vast majority of all industry and agriculture, with the vast majority of private industry being joint-ventures between the PRC and foreign industries.

Every sensible person, who has read anything of Marxism or has examined the USSR pre-1929 or Yugoslavia or even late-feudal societies will note that the Market does not determine Feudalism, Capitalism or Socialism. Those 3 systems are determined by the character of the state and economy. The character of the Market within the PRC is Socialist and hence China as a whole, with a Socialist government and economy is Socialist. China has not adopted bourgeois nationalism and still retains proletarian nationalism. There is no part of China which is not Socialist and it is only the vein wishes of the Capitalists for her to abandon Socialism.

[Rilzic]

It was a competition and we came out on top.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Quote: Wrong, the basis of the difference between Capitalism and Socialism is who rules, the Bourgeois or the Proletariat.

haha spout that rhetoric,

No the diffrence between capatilsim and command based econmics is the existance of the price mechanism.

Saying some one 'rules' the free market is a basic misunderstanding.

[Preechr]

Dongfanghong wrote: The war between Capitalism and Socialism is just beginning and we can easily see the tide turning towards Socialism.

When I read this line, I almost spit coffee on my keyboard. That is straight comedy. It’s like Baghdad Bob saying the Americans were no where near the city while American tanks were rolling along the riverbank in the background of the shot.

[Bobicito]

Cold War means non shooting war. It was a race who culd build more nuclear weapons and who could go the moon first, and as far as I can see we won and were still wining.

[Jehan]

The Cold War was largely a long period of tension between the United States and the USSR, punctuated by flair-ups such as the Vietnam War, Korean War, and so forth. You could say the US won because the USSR is gone now.

[Jehan]

Dongfanghong wrote: Wrong, the basis of the difference between Capitalism and Socialism is who rules, the Bourgeois or the Proletariat.

Pure rhetoric. Capitalism is a strawman created by Karl Marx as the epitome of free enterprise, which holds the belief that the average joe can start his own business.

[Locke%erasmus]

I absolutely am loathe to use old phrases, but ..."Who won the San Francisco Earthquake?" I think the economies of both America and Russia could've been directed for something more...useful. At the time their mentalities were, if he shoots first, he's gonna die with me. Circular thinking= waste of time and money.