Political Crossfire Forums

[connermt]

Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?

[John]

soldierofchrist wrote: connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?
They are not worshipped. They are put on a pedestal and held up as shining examples of a good Christian lifestyle. And they are praying to St. Mary and other St.'s for intercession. That up in the Heaven the saints will pray for them.

What I don't understand is who do these saints hear and understand all the millions of prayers coming at them? Are they omniscient as God is?

To me it seems to miss the point that prayer is more about developing the Christian's Faith.....not talking God into something. But that's just me I guess.

[Todd D.]

Quote: What I don't understand is who do these saints hear and understand all the millions of prayers coming at them? Are they omniscient as God is?
They are "living" (though "living" probably isn't the right word. "Being" might be better) in eternity. Time has no meaning in eternity. It's not like they get up in the morning and are like "Man, I have to pray for 3,102,239,291 people today", since there is no "time" really.

Besides, even if time DID have meaning, wouldn't a simple "Please grace everyone that needs it" work just as well? I would imagine that it would.

Quote: To me it seems to miss the point that prayer is more about developing the Christian's Faith.....not talking God into something. But that's just me I guess.
Fair enough, but you would pray for me if I asked you to, right? I fail to see the difference between asking you and asking someone that is in presence of God.

I also echo soldier's sentiments that there is a fundamental difference between respect an worship. I venerate Mary and the Saints, but they were human, not divine.

[connermt]

soldierofchrist wrote: connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?
They are not worshipped. They are put on a pedestal and held up as shining examples of a good Christian lifestyle. And they are praying to St. Mary and other St.'s for intercession. That up in the Heaven the saints will pray for them.

I can see keeping a statue or a painting to show respect & reverence, etc.
You may not, but I have seen people that worship them, more so than God
But praying to them is worship, is it not? Praying for guidance from Mary & help, seems to be worship to me
Shouldn't you be praying to the Holy Spirit for intercession, & not Mary or St So-in-So?

[connermt]

John wrote: soldierofchrist wrote: connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?
They are not worshipped. They are put on a pedestal and held up as shining examples of a good Christian lifestyle. And they are praying to St. Mary and other St.'s for intercession. That up in the Heaven the saints will pray for them.

What I don't understand is who do these saints hear and understand all the millions of prayers coming at them? Are they omniscient as God is?

To me it seems to miss the point that prayer is more about developing the Christian's Faith.....not talking God into something. But that's just me I guess.

I can definately see where you are coming from. If people pray to Mary, why not any of the desciples, or John the Baptist or Moses or Noah, etc.?
It seems to me, praying to anyone other than God seems to be idolatry IMO.
I have always wondered this
Can anyone show me if what I am thinking isn't true?

[John]

Quote: They are "living" (though "living" probably isn't the right word. "Being" might be better) in eternity. Time has no meaning in eternity. It's not like they get up in the morning and are like "Man, I have to pray for 3,102,239,291 people today", since there is no "time" really.




Then you could pray to yourself. Right?

[John]

Quote: Fair enough, but you would pray for me if I asked you to, right? I fail to see the difference between asking you and asking someone that is in presence of God.

I also echo soldier's sentiments that there is a fundamental difference between respect an worship. I venerate Mary and the Saints, but they were human, not divine.

Yes....but praying for you helps build my Faith. It serves a purpose.

Prayer is about building a relationship with God.....praying for you just gives me another reason to pray.

[Todd D.]

Quote: ou may not, but I have seen people that worship them, more so than God
I have too. What I am saying is that it is not official Christian doctrine to "worship" Mary, Saints, or Statues.

Quote: But praying to them is worship, is it not?.
No, it is not. "To Pray" is a verb that literally means "To Ask" or "To Request" (think of the expression "I pray thee, give me the information"). So no, praying to anyone other than God is not "idolotry", worshipping anyone other than God is idolotry.

Quote: Then you could pray to yourself. Right?
...I'm not sure the practical application that asking myself to pray for me would serve.

Quote: Yes....but praying for you helps build my Faith. It serves a purpose.
Are you suggesting that when you pray for someone, you are only doing so because it strengthens your faith?

[John]

Quote: Are you suggesting that when you pray for someone, you are only doing so because it strengthens your faith?

No...I don't think of it that way....but it's what's really going on.

[perdidochas]

connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?

Catholics do not "worship" Mary or the other saints. We pray to them , using the word "pray", in the sense of "ask." In other words, we ask them to pray for us, just as we ask those on earth to pray for us. (People in heaven are not dead, they are alive in Christ). We don't view Mary or the saints as gods. In fact, the only reason they are important is as examples of how we should be devoted to God.

We honor Mary as Jesus honored her. Jesus, as an observant Jewish boy, honored Mary. To not do so, would have been for him to sin.

It's not idolatry. Idolatry is if we worship an inanimate object as a god.

[perdidochas]

connermt wrote: soldierofchrist wrote: connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?
They are not worshipped. They are put on a pedestal and held up as shining examples of a good Christian lifestyle. And they are praying to St. Mary and other St.'s for intercession. That up in the Heaven the saints will pray for them.

I can see keeping a statue or a painting to show respect & reverence, etc.
You may not, but I have seen people that worship them, more so than God
But praying to them is worship, is it not? Praying for guidance from Mary & help, seems to be worship to me
Shouldn't you be praying to the Holy Spirit for intercession, & not Mary or St So-in-So?

Here's the primary "prayer" we say to Mary:

Hail Mary, Full of grace,
The Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou among women and
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.


The first 4 verses are Bible quotes from early chapters of Luke, IIRC.
The last two are asking us to pray for us. Note, we are not praying to her, but asking her to pray for us.

Also, without Jesus, Mary (or the saints) would mean nothing. Honoring Mary (or the saints) takes nothing away from God. Without God they would be nothing. We honor them because of their good example as good followers of Christ. How would that take anything away from God?

[John]

Quote: Idolatry is if we worship an inanimate object as a god.

Actually.

It's to put your faith in anything other than God.

[Jonah]

It’s interesting, I think, to note how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and to whom they should direct their prayers:

Matthew 6: 9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, …”

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

[Todd D.]

Quote: It’s interesting, I think, to note how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and to whom they should direct their prayers:

Matthew 6: 9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, …”
So you are saying the only prayer you say is the Our Father?

I think the biggest thing people are getting hung up on is that there is a difference between adoration and prayer. Adoration is the worship and praise that you direct towards God. Prayer (in this context) is a request. There is a difference there.

[John]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: It’s interesting, I think, to note how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and to whom they should direct their prayers:

Matthew 6: 9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, …”
So you are saying the only prayer you say is the Our Father?

I think the biggest thing people are getting hung up on is that there is a difference between adoration and prayer. Adoration is the worship and praise that you direct towards God. Prayer (in this context) is a request. There is a difference there.


The issue here is faith. If you're not talking to the person directly (over the phone, internet, ect..) Then you are putting faith in them...in that they hear your thoughts or your prayers....instead of depending on God.

I don't expect you to change your mind...just understand why we feel the way we do.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: Idolatry is if we worship an inanimate object as a god.

Actually.

It's to put your faith in anything other than God.
Actually,

Idolatry is the act of imposing human faults and failings unto God.. If the "god" you are praying to partakes of human faults, failings, limitations and weakness, then you are -- in so many words -- worshipping that which is human and mortal, rather than worshipping that which is Divine and eternal.

[Jonah]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: It’s interesting, I think, to note how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and to whom they should direct their prayers:

Matthew 6: 9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, …”
So you are saying the only prayer you say is the Our Father?

I think the biggest thing people are getting hung up on is that there is a difference between adoration and prayer. Adoration is the worship and praise that you direct towards God. Prayer (in this context) is a request. There is a difference there.

My point was more the "to whom", not the "how." Your only prayer isn't "Hail Mary" is it? :-o

Actually, I don't know that there's any harm in praying to Mary as long as your faith is in the right place, I just think it's pointless. I seriously doubt she can hear you...she's in a better place, and how would it be a better place if she's weighed down by our problems? That's is my opinion.

I mean, why not just go to the source? "Since we have access by faith, we can boldly before the throne of grace." (My paraphrase)

[perdidochas]

Jonah wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: It’s interesting, I think, to note how Jesus taught his disciples to pray and to whom they should direct their prayers:

Matthew 6: 9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, …”
So you are saying the only prayer you say is the Our Father?

I think the biggest thing people are getting hung up on is that there is a difference between adoration and prayer. Adoration is the worship and praise that you direct towards God. Prayer (in this context) is a request. There is a difference there.

My point was more the "to whom", not the "how." Your only prayer isn't "Hail Mary" is it? :-o

Actually, I don't know that there's any harm in praying to Mary as long as your faith is in the right place, I just think it's pointless. I seriously doubt she can hear you...she's in a better place, and how would it be a better place if she's weighed down by our problems? That's is my opinion.

I mean, why not just go to the source? "Since we have access by faith, we can boldly before the throne of grace." (My paraphrase)

Most Catholics do "go to the source?" We just have other options as well. We like to ask our fellow Christians to pray for us. So what if those fellow Christians are in heaven...... Devotion to Mary and the saints is optional. A Catholic doesn't need to say Hail Mary's, or ask saints to pray for us.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Quote: Idolatry is if we worship an inanimate object as a god.

Actually.

It's to put your faith in anything other than God.
Actually,

Idolatry is the act of imposing human faults and failings unto God.. If the "god" you are praying to partakes of human faults, failings, limitations and weakness, then you are -- in so many words -- worshipping that which is human and mortal, rather than worshipping that which is Divine and eternal.

Now you're just making things up.

You're assuming to understand the emotions of God and claiming that all emotions are a "human fault or failing".

You seem to miss the point that we are made in His image....so there must me some things about being human that are not really faults or failings. If you want to know what those characteristic are...then look to Jesus Christ and you will know.

[connermt]

perdidochas wrote: connermt wrote: Help me understand this:
Why is (are) Mary (& other saints) worshipped & prayed to by some religions?
Isn't one of the ten commandments speaking to '...no other gods before me' & such?
Why does worshipping Mary & praying to her statues (as well as other saints) NOT qualify idolatry?
Or does it?

Can someone explain this to me ....?

Catholics do not "worship" Mary or the other saints. We pray to them , using the word "pray", in the sense of "ask." In other words, we ask them to pray for us, just as we ask those on earth to pray for us. (People in heaven are not dead, they are alive in Christ). We don't view Mary or the saints as gods. In fact, the only reason they are important is as examples of how we should be devoted to God.

We honor Mary as Jesus honored her. Jesus, as an observant Jewish boy, honored Mary. To not do so, would have been for him to sin.

It's not idolatry. Idolatry is if we worship an inanimate object as a god.

I understand praying to someone so that someone could take your pray to God, but why not pray to God yourself?
Why does someone find it necessary to pray to someone else instead of praying directly to God?

Granted I am not a Catholic & fully don't understand them as a general rule. My concern is when I see a statue of Mary (or St Whoever) with candles placed around them all lit, people waiting in line to touch the statue to be blessed (or healed or whatever), praying to her directly - that seemed (& still does seem) like idolatry to me.
To me idolatry means to worhsip something in place of God. I guess it just seemed to me that doing this was placing TOO much importance on Mary (or St Whoever) & taking it away from God. But again, I don't know what's going on in their head while they pray.
I am NOT accussing catholics of this, but I see it more in a catholic-style of worship (at least w/n Christian standards) than any other stype of worship.

But I do now understand a little more about how catholics see Mary & why they pray to her - thanks to those who explained it. But it still bothers me some, but that's my issue
:)