Political Crossfire Forums

Misanthropy · Joined: 01 Apr 2006 Posts: 35

Can anyone help me with understanding the major points of postmodernism? I'm finding it extremely hard to get a clear description of what it is.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Basically, post-modernism like it it's predecessor Modernism, is a rejection of clear-cut moral positions and values.

It goes beyond Modernism in that it rejects the idea that Modernists generally follow that some new value system can be arrived at by rejecting the time proven moral absolutes of the past and embracing new modern ideas in art, literature, and society.

So basically, it is the idea that nothing matters, everything is to be despised, and life is futile so you might as well spend your time seeking pleasure in whatever way strikes your fancy.

Misanthropy · Joined: 01 Apr 2006 Posts: 35

Wow. Thank you sir that helped more than you can imagine.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

My pleasure.

letsgooilers · Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 404 Location: Saskatchewan

I'll quote the introduction to Post Modernism on Wiki

Quote: Postmodern philosophy is an eclectic and elusive movement characterized by the postmodern criticism and analysis of Western philosophy. Beginning as a critique of Continental philosophy, it was heavily influenced by phenomenology, structuralism and existentialism, and by the philosophers Friedrich Nietzsche and Martin Heidegger. It was also influenced to some degree by Ludwig Wittgenstein's later criticisms of analytic philosophy and Søren Kierkegaard's attack on any type of systematic philosophy. Within postmodern philosophy, there are numerous interrelated fields, including deconstruction and several fields beginning with the prefix "post-", such as post-structuralism, post-Marxism, and post-feminism. In particular postmodern philosophy has spawned a huge literature of critical theory.

Postmodern philosophy is generally characterized by a skepticism toward the simple binary oppositions predominant in Western metaphysics and humanism, such as the expectation that the philosopher may cleanly isolate knowledge from ignorance, social progress from reversion, dominance from submission, or presence from absence. This is anti-foundationalism. To some critics, this skepticism appears similar to relativism or even nihilism. Defenders of post-modernism would argue that there is a distinct difference, however: while relativism and nihilism are generally viewed as an abandonment of meaning and authority, postmodern philosophy is generally viewed as an openness to meaning and authority from unexpected places, and that the ultimate source of authority is the "play" of the discourse itself. In addition, many view postmodern philosophy not as a purely abstract or logical argument, but as a historical occurren

And for the rest of the article on Postmodern philosophy: Postmodern philosophy

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Postmodern philosophy is generally characterized by a skepticism toward the simple binary oppositions predominant in Western metaphysics and humanism

Translation in English:
They think traditional morals and values are worthless.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:48 am Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Postmodern philosophy is generally characterized by a skepticism toward the simple binary oppositions predominant in Western metaphysics and humanism

Translation in English:
They think traditional morals and values are worthless.

Hahah clearly not a fan cappy.

It has its philosophical merits, its really just an extension of logical sceptism though, nothing ground breakingly new.

The Impeacher · Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2928 Location: Everywhere

cap'n queasy wrote: Basically, post-modernism like it it's predecessor Modernism, is a rejection of clear-cut moral positions and values.

It goes beyond Modernism in that it rejects the idea that Modernists generally follow that some new value system can be arrived at by rejecting the time proven moral absolutes of the past and embracing new modern ideas in art, literature, and society.

So basically, it is the idea that nothing matters, everything is to be despised, and life is futile so you might as well spend your time seeking pleasure in whatever way strikes your fancy.

WRONG!!!

:lol:

other than the very useful article a Wiki above, the "point" of the pomo movement is that the assessing value is problematic, and prone to error. it is not about the destruction of value, but the "claim" that certain modern value systems are "the best," or are better as being relative to another.

case in point, many consider Kierkegaard as the first "post modernist" and thus the first existentialist philsopher, and i agree. kierkegaard's solution for the loss of value due to skeptical analysis of rational systems is to take a "leap of faith" and embrace religion!

and Hume stressed the reliance on Common Sense due to the is/ought and percepton problem.

hardly a conspiracy of "value" destrucion, but rather an exposure of "value" construction and thus in can be used to attack claims to heirachical value "supierority" - and thus argue for tolerance. rejection of false external values, while not rejecting the value of of life or others live's and the respecting the sovereignty of other individuals! it is what i like to call FREEDOM.

i don't see how one can remove kierkegaard and the existential movement from pomo, but it does make sense to compare kierkegaard, nietzsche, sarte et al to the german idealists who preceded them.

modernism rejects idealism, post modernism questions the claims made from extended existential arguments based upon a greater philosophical understanding of the constructs of the individual and of society itself. i cannot see why it's really cetegorically usefull to isolate pomo from modernism, as it would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

in the end, i agree that a lot of pomo can be rejected as being too "out of touch" with the mainstream reality of living an everday life - but i think that is more of indictment of mainstream society and our everday lives than it is a true criticism of pomo. so it may lack some useful relevance, but it is very illuminating to understand pomo philosophy/sociology as to understanding the essence of arguments and what we call "reality."

just because you understand pomo philosoophy, does not mean you will necessarily be persuaded that postmodernism is "correct" or that it has a lot of relevance. it's just good to know and appreciate this conception if one ever hopes to considered an educated person and a "critical thinker."

Phædrus · Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 131 Location: Northern Europe

These days I am getting very tired of isms in general and postmodernism in particular - although I agree more profoundly that many with its major discoveries.

What is postmodernism? Is it just a category invented by the chattering classes and the publishers of academic and pseudo academic literature that is guarantied to keep them in business for a very long time? Or perhaps a convenient category within which to lump everything that does not comply with the standard practices and histories of everything from architecture to business administration? Or perhaps something to be used in the evrlasting war against all thing Marxist? Or simply the effect of events that happened in Paris in May 1968?

Ultimately, "pomo" is a trend. But it is a trend fuelled by important forces and significant voices. Good reviews are in Frederic Jameson's What is postmodernism and in the contraversial Empire written by Negri and Hardt. The debate/exchange/disagreement between Derrida and Foucault is pretty exciting too ...

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Can anyone help me with understanding the major points of postmodernism? I'm finding it extremely hard to get a clear description of what it is.

A friend had a cd that called itself 'post-rock', it makes a nice analogy of postmodernism itself. It was without melody or rhythm. It had same noises as real rock but without any sort of cohesiveness or reason. Obviously it sounded absolutely dreadful, surviving off of the same sentiment as the emperor's new clothes.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Reason wrote: Quote: Can anyone help me with understanding the major points of postmodernism? I'm finding it extremely hard to get a clear description of what it is.

A friend had a cd that called itself 'post-rock', it makes a nice analogy of postmodernism itself. It was without melody or rhythm. It had same noises as real rock but without any sort of cohesiveness or reason. Obviously it sounded absolutely dreadful, surviving off of the same sentiment as the emperor's new clothes.

Perfect analogy.

social · Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Postmodernism

Misanthropy wrote: Can anyone help me with understanding the major points of postmodernism? I'm finding it extremely hard to get a clear description of what it is.

Believe me, one of the only accurate things you can say about postmodernism is that it is not clear, that it is often contradictory, and that it deals with subjects as wide-ranging as movements in architecture to different philosophical revolutions.

If I were, however, to summarise some of the key points of postmodernism, I would say that it should not be thought of as a successor to modernism, despite the prefix 'post', that it is based on a general (though not complete) rejection of what postmodernists call the "grand narratives" of the enlightenment - Marxism, psychoanalytic theory, etc. -, that it relies on 'identity constructions', which are tied into the mass consumption of consumer goods and the mass media generally, and that it proposes a more loose, even undefined 'explanation' of social phenomena.

Pick up a copy of Beggining Postmodernism and you'll find an easy-going, well-written summary of the basic ideas - though don't expect a moment of realisation when you think you finally 'get' postemodernism, because it simply won't happen! :lol:

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote: Can anyone help me with understanding the major points of postmodernism? I'm finding it extremely hard to get a clear description of what it is.

A friend had a cd that called itself 'post-rock', it makes a nice analogy of postmodernism itself. It was without melody or rhythm. It had same noises as real rock but without any sort of cohesiveness or reason. Obviously it sounded absolutely dreadful, surviving off of the same sentiment as the emperor's new clothes.

Irregarless post hardcore kicks ass.

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13215 Location: Berkeley

This won't sound too intelligent, but I know a lot of post-modern humor is simply acting in a manner that you are poking fun at, i.e. racism. It's sometimes so under-handed that people won't understand...my friends and I use it a lot and it just confuses most people. :lol:

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

jawsome wrote: This won't sound too intelligent, but I know a lot of post-modern humor is simply acting in a manner that you are poking fun at, i.e. racism. It's sometimes so under-handed that people won't understand...my friends and I use it a lot and it just confuses most people. :lol:

We do much the same thing....it's called being ironic

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:41 am Post subject:

Reason wrote: jawsome wrote: This won't sound too intelligent, but I know a lot of post-modern humor is simply acting in a manner that you are poking fun at, i.e. racism. It's sometimes so under-handed that people won't understand...my friends and I use it a lot and it just confuses most people. :lol:

We do much the same thing....it's called being ironic

We british are years ahead of your primitive american humor.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Reason wrote: jawsome wrote: This won't sound too intelligent, but I know a lot of post-modern humor is simply acting in a manner that you are poking fun at, i.e. racism. It's sometimes so under-handed that people won't understand...my friends and I use it a lot and it just confuses most people. :lol:

We do much the same thing....it's called being ironic

We british are years ahead of your primitive american humor.

It's weird how people always say Americans have no sense of irony, and then an obviously intelligent American mentions it as if it's some sort of new invention! It's sort of been the staple humour of my friends and I since we were about 13.....

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13215 Location: Berkeley

Reason wrote: jawsome wrote: This won't sound too intelligent, but I know a lot of post-modern humor is simply acting in a manner that you are poking fun at, i.e. racism. It's sometimes so under-handed that people won't understand...my friends and I use it a lot and it just confuses most people. :lol:

We do much the same thing....it's called being ironic

Yep. But it's an integral component to po-mo literature (apparently), according to my friends studying literature. And, of course, it has lots of political/social commentary and critique, most dealing with "traditional" values and such so that's why it's called Post-Modern.