Political Crossfire Forums

Da Vinci · Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 5

During these trials nazi leaders and officers were indicted and found guilty. Now its important to say that man of these men who were sentenced to life inprisonment were released, for various reasons. Thats not however what i'm here to discuss. Many of the leaders were without a doubt guilty, however how about the officers? Do you think those officers who were found guilty should have been? Without a doubt they were responsible for the atrocities which took place. However were they guilty? They were after all just following the orders of their superior officers. I personally think they were guilty for they knew what they were doing but its not a clear cut thing.

Bobicito · Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 274 Location: Ohio

Do I think they shold be punished, yes. Life in prison, no.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

What they should have done with the guilty?

Line them up against a wall and perhaps give them a cigerrate and a blindfold and then gun down every single man found guilty of a crime related to the Nazi Atrocities.

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

superskippy wrote: What they should have done with the guilty?

Line them up against a wall and perhaps give them a cigerrate and a blindfold and then gun down every single man found guilty of a crime related to the Nazi Atrocities.

:clap:

sherborne · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 800 Location: London

superskippy wrote: What they should have done with the guilty?

Line them up against a wall and perhaps give them a cigerrate and a blindfold and then gun down every single man found guilty of a crime related to the Nazi Atrocities.

And then we could call that the counter holocaust i suppose?

you dont teach lessons by mass killings. The Nuremberg trials were supposed to be educational, teaching people what had happened. If you want to kill all the people who were in some way involved with the holocaust your talking about killing thousands. That is not a good way to win the ideological war.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

Lesson? Educating people?

Nay, thats not my point of it. I want them to die. It has no bearing on the lesson, it has to do with the punishment for their sins. They have forfeit their life and the firing squad should have been their recourse.

The lesson could be the videos of lining them up and shooting them for all I care.

Do you know what? Had I been alive then and I had been given the gun and told to weigh their fates, do you know what I would have done? I wouldnt even need to hesitate.

Its because of them my mothers family is all but gone leaving me and my mother and brother as the last survivors. They killed my grandfathers mother, father, 7 brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts.

You call it immoral to commit a mass killing, I call it an act of justice to execute a group of people who had the disgusting evil sin to even call themselves human beings.

You want to make people remember? To win the Ideological conflict? Put a display on that the world will never forget, look to Rome as it crushed Sparticus and made the lesson remembered. Take their corpses and crucify them down the Autobahn. My pity doesnt exist for them. Let the World never forget what those corpses mean, and I guarentee they will never forget.

sherborne · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 800 Location: London

superskippy wrote: Lesson? Educating people?

Nay, thats not my point of it. I want them to die. It has no bearing on the lesson, it has to do with the punishment for their sins. They have forfeit their life and the firing squad should have been their recourse.

The lesson could be the videos of lining them up and shooting them for all I care.

Do you know what? Had I been alive then and I had been given the gun and told to weigh their fates, do you know what I would have done? I wouldnt even need to hesitate.

Its because of them my mothers family is all but gone leaving me and my mother and brother as the last survivors. They killed my grandfathers mother, father, 7 brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts.

You call it immoral to commit a mass killing, I call it an act of justice to execute a group of people who had the disgusting evil sin to even call themselves human beings.

You want to make people remember? To win the Ideological conflict? Put a display on that the world will never forget, look to Rome as it crushed Sparticus and made the lesson remembered. Take their corpses and crucify them down the Autobahn. My pity doesnt exist for them. Let the World never forget what those corpses mean, and I guarentee they will never forget.

Although i sympathise greatly with your situation your position only breeds more violence. Do you advocate killing all of the clerks who documented the Jews on train stations? Do you advocate killing all of the guards in concentration camps? Do you advocate killing all the guards in death camps? do you advocate killing all people who profited from Jewish property? Do you advocate killing the leaders of businesses who exploited Jewish labour? Your talking about a lot of people. If you refine your definition down to the Nazi leaders then i might agree with you. But everyone? Thats a lot of people! It wouldnt just include Nazis either. You would have to include large sections of eastern Europe and Russia.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Do you advocate killing all of the clerks who documented the Jews on train stations?

No save for the SS or Nazi officials who oversaw it.

Quote: Do you advocate killing all of the guards in concentration camps?

Yes in almost all circumstances, a few guards showed humanity and that evidence should be displayed as a mitigating factor and some of the indentured guards from captured countries.

Quote: Do you advocate killing all the guards in death camps?

Yes, with the same exceptions as before, save with far more restrictions on who can pass a mitigating circumstance.

Quote: do you advocate killing all people who profited from Jewish property?

Were they a Nazi or SS official? Then yes, for the average citizen then no but compensation in full must be repayed.

Quote: Do you advocate killing the leaders of businesses who exploited Jewish labour?

For the people who knowingly exploited slave labour they deserve death. Especially considering the labour led to death on an enormous scale.

sherborne · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 800 Location: London

superskippy wrote: Quote: Do you advocate killing all of the clerks who documented the Jews on train stations?

No save for the SS or Nazi officials who oversaw it.

Quote: Do you advocate killing all of the guards in concentration camps?

Yes in almost all circumstances, a few guards showed humanity and that evidence should be displayed as a mitigating factor and some of the indentured guards from captured countries.

Quote: Do you advocate killing all the guards in death camps?

Yes, with the same exceptions as before, save with far more restrictions on who can pass a mitigating circumstance.

Quote: do you advocate killing all people who profited from Jewish property?

Were they a Nazi or SS official? Then yes, for the average citizen then no but compensation in full must be repayed.

Quote: Do you advocate killing the leaders of businesses who exploited Jewish labour?

For the people who knowingly exploited slave labour they deserve death. Especially considering the labour led to death on an enormous scale.

Im sorry but i cannot agree. Although not as inhumane as the Nazis it isnt a far sight off.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

And there we differ, if I had been alive then and been the judge of their fates I would have made what the Romans did along the Apian Way look like a prelude to this.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16387 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: And there we differ, if I had been alive then and been the judge of their fates I would have made what the Romans did along the Apian Way look like a prelude to this.

Personally, the best punishments are those who make the punishers appear more humane than the punished.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8602 Location: Petah Tikva

Saracen if over the next 5 years we took in 6,000,000 Palestinians and slaughtered them in death camps, took millions more to work as slave labour burning your own peoples corpses and working to death in our factories, and seized every bit of your property, tortured those who resisted, and tried to annihilate you as a people, wouldnt you want a terrible revenge?

I know I would and while many people on here will say otherwise as it doesnt appeal to their own humaniterian and moral viewpoints, while those might be good moral standings, the truth is if it happened they would crave revenge too, morality of punishment leaves after your people have suffered something like that. And those guilty ae now captured and await punishement...

Tell me Saracen, tell me and think long and hard, if that happened to yor people, and the guilty were in custody awaiting judgment, would you want to meet out a punishment of death or terror upon them?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16387 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Tell me Saracen, tell me and think long and hard, if that happened to yor people, and the guilty were in custody awaiting judgment, would you want to meet out a punishment of death or terror upon them?

Yeah, good point. I'm thinking long and hard...

Nope. Out of the goodness of my heart, I would say "no". However, I'd rather see the criminals deported, and the state of Palestine returned.

Worthy price. At least more people will not die.

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

Saracen wrote: superskippy wrote: Tell me Saracen, tell me and think long and hard, if that happened to yor people, and the guilty were in custody awaiting judgment, would you want to meet out a punishment of death or terror upon them?

Yeah, good point. I'm thinking long and hard...

Nope. Out of the goodness of my heart, I would say "no". However, I'd rather see the criminals deported, and the state of Palestine returned.

Worthy price. At least more people will not die.

I think if it ever happened you would feel differently. Now, I'm not a Jew or an Israeli, but I can sympathize with what their people went through and the revenge they would want. However, in reality, this isn't revenge this is justice. You kill you deserve to die, that is one of the oldest senses of justice we get.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16387 Location: On Earth

OneZero wrote: I think if it ever happened you would feel differently. Now, I'm not a Jew or an Israeli, but I can sympathize with what their people went through and the revenge they would want. However, in reality, this isn't revenge this is justice. You kill you deserve to die, that is one of the oldest senses of justice we get.

Of course, but I was trying to show a different change of heart, considering that there are other bargaining chips. ;)

sherborne · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 800 Location: London

Saracen wrote: superskippy wrote: And there we differ, if I had been alive then and been the judge of their fates I would have made what the Romans did along the Apian Way look like a prelude to this.

Personally, the best punishments are those who make the punishers appear more humane than the punished. :tu:

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

Saracen wrote: OneZero wrote: I think if it ever happened you would feel differently. Now, I'm not a Jew or an Israeli, but I can sympathize with what their people went through and the revenge they would want. However, in reality, this isn't revenge this is justice. You kill you deserve to die, that is one of the oldest senses of justice we get.

Of course, but I was trying to show a different change of heart, considering that there are other bargaining chips. ;)

I don't think this is something that can be forgiven by humans, mass genocide against one's people is an awful thing that deserves punishment.

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

sherborne wrote: Saracen wrote: superskippy wrote: And there we differ, if I had been alive then and been the judge of their fates I would have made what the Romans did along the Apian Way look like a prelude to this.

Personally, the best punishments are those who make the punishers appear more humane than the punished. :tu:

That's not a punishment, that's a political move.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16387 Location: On Earth

OneZero wrote: Saracen wrote: OneZero wrote: I think if it ever happened you would feel differently. Now, I'm not a Jew or an Israeli, but I can sympathize with what their people went through and the revenge they would want. However, in reality, this isn't revenge this is justice. You kill you deserve to die, that is one of the oldest senses of justice we get.

Of course, but I was trying to show a different change of heart, considering that there are other bargaining chips. ;)

I don't think this is something that can be forgiven by humans, mass genocide against one's people is an awful thing that deserves punishment.

You're right, but I would rather that the punishment is either done quickly and painlessly if it involves death, not nice and slow. If a man went about and killed many people on a frenzy, just give him the guillotine.

sherborne · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 800 Location: London

superskippy wrote: Saracen if over the next 5 years we took in 6,000,000 Palestinians and slaughtered them in death camps, took millions more to work as slave labour burning your own peoples corpses and working to death in our factories, and seized every bit of your property, tortured those who resisted, and tried to annihilate you as a people, wouldnt you want a terrible revenge?

I know I would and while many people on here will say otherwise as it doesnt appeal to their own humaniterian and moral viewpoints, while those might be good moral standings, the truth is if it happened they would crave revenge too, morality of punishment leaves after your people have suffered something like that. And those guilty ae now captured and await punishement...

Tell me Saracen, tell me and think long and hard, if that happened to yor people, and the guilty were in custody awaiting judgment, would you want to meet out a punishment of death or terror upon them?

At the end of the day violence breeds violence and revenge (especially if it involves killing) is never a good policy to follow. I would like to think that i could say that it is wrong even if it did happen to my people. Its as Saracen said:

super saracen wrote: Nope. Out of the goodness of my heart, I would say "no". However, I'd rather see the criminals deported, and the state of Palestine returned.

Worthy price. At least more people will not die.