Political Crossfire Forums

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

Stygma wrote: Wolverine wrote: It rained for the first time this year today...... oh my...... we left the ducks and geese out to fend for themselves. Someone call animal control! :lol:

Anyways, its nice to see that you ignored my posts Infinite911911, so I guess I will ask again.

If someone accidentally shoots your dog, are you going to sue them for the destruction of private property?
What if they purposely shoots your dogs?

No, you prosecute them for manslaughter. :lol:

rofl good luck!

George W Bush · Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:

Leon Czolgosz wrote: no, it's just you W.

It seems your PETA supporting, animal rights agenda is corrupting your reality. YOu have place animals on a pedestal equal to humans.

Let me ask this, do you think humans own pets, or do you think humans are the pet's gaurdians?

Wow. What a dumb question!

Anyway, you can give an animal a good home if you so choose. You do that because .. well, you like animals.

You may think me alien or whatever, but Animals are as important to me as human beings. You cant see that even though you have put frozen meat in your fridge for sustenance. I am saying, you dont realize YOURSELF how important and dependent on Animals humans are.

We can spar back and forth on the virtues on dominating animals. I like that we are evolved enough to discern our activity enough that we can control how animals are treated. But, folks such as yourself rely on these primative, almost orangutan-like excuses for treatment of animals. Some of you have gotten as pathetic as quoting the Bible.

At any rate, ive evolved and can tell that Animals have feelings just as human beings do. But, i'm not sure what your species has, Leon. :wink:

jasonireland · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 189

so, do you people who consider animals have no rights because its not in the law, does that mean your morals and ethics directly correspond with the country you live in?
does that mean in one country you would use a prostitute, take drugs legally, get your wife executed for adultry.....own a gun legally?

does your morals and ethics run straight in line with what the government says is good for you and your country? what does that say about you?or do you just always agree with the law because its ten times easier than thinking for yourself? independent minds anyone?

oh and this article relates to what i am saying.....
and its from cnn.com in case you are wondering....

Germany votes for animal rights
May 17, 2002 Posted: 10:56 AM EDT (1456 GMT)

The main impact of the vote will be on using animals to test cosmetics and drugs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BERLIN, Germany -- Germany has become the first European nation to vote to guarantee animal rights in its constitution.

A majority of lawmakers in the Bundestag voted on Friday to add "and animals" to a clause that obliges the state to respect and protect the dignity of humans.

The main impact of the measure will be to restrict the use of animals in experiments.

In the end 543 lawmakers in Germany's lower house of parliament voted in favour of giving animals constitutional rights. Nineteen voted against it and 15 abstained.

The vote is expected to be approved by the Bundesrat upper house this summer.

Article 20a of the German Basic Law will then read: "The state takes responsibility for protecting the natural foundations of life and animals in the interest of future generations."

The issue had been keenly debated among German politicians for almost 10 years.

Animals in Germany already are protected through legislation defining the conditions in which they can be held in captivity, but activists claimed it did not go far enough to control the use of animals in research.

With the new measure, the federal constitutional court will have to weigh animals' rights against other entrenched rights, like those to conduct research or practice religion. This could translate bring tighter restrictions on the use of animals for testing cosmetics or nonprescription drugs.

CNN.com Europe
More news from our European edition

Consumer Affairs Minister Renate Kunast, a member of the environmentalist Greens party that has lobbied for many years to bring animal rights into the constitution, welcomed the change as groundbreaking, but emphasised it would not diminish human rights.

"People remain the most important," Kunast said.

Conservative parliament members had previously opposed the constitutional changes, arguing that it could put the interests of animals before those of humans and be particularly damaging to Germany's research industry.

Animal rights activists say they will use the constitutional changes to try and end to what they say are unduly long transport routes for animals.

Lawmakers said the government will also look at targeting more research funding to projects that seek alternatives to using animals for conducting experiments.

would your ethics change if you were to move to germany? or would you just go with the flow because, hey,its just so easy to agree with the majority.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10980 Location: Podunk, Colorado

jasonireland wrote: so, do you people who consider animals have no rights because its not in the law, does that mean your morals and ethics directly correspond with the country you live in?
Unless you see something in the Constitution giving animals rights, they don't have any.

Quote: does that mean in one country you would use a prostitute, take drugs legally, get your wife executed for adultry.....own a gun legally?
Owning a gun is legal.

Quote: does your morals and ethics run straight in line with what the government says is good for you and your country? what does that say about you?or do you just always agree with the law because its ten times easier than thinking for yourself? independent minds anyone?
The Law of the Land says I have a right to life, liberty, and property. I don't see any animals in there.

Quote: oh and this article relates to what i am saying.....
and its from cnn.com in case you are wondering....

Germany votes for animal rights
May 17, 2002 Posted: 10:56 AM EDT (1456 GMT)
*snip*
Do you take medications? I wonder how many lives have been saved thanks to animal testing. Oh well, some how a insignificant lab rat is more important than the well being of a human.

thintheherd · Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject:

Until animals can effectively understand a need for, communicate a desire for and debate their position for rights equal to mine, they shall remain a course in nearly all of my meals.

thintheherd · Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject:

That goes for plants as well.

jasonireland · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 189

wolverine, you just proved my point, thank you.

It seems your morals and ethics correlate exactly to what your government says is right and wrong, as you displayed above.

its such a pity people cannot think for themselves, without having to rely on laws and a government that will over time change its constitution too. So does that mean that your conscious decisions and place in the world relate exactly to what your government is currently telling you what to do?

if it does, you might as well be a robot.

have you ever smoked pot, ever broke any law in your life? If you consciensiously have broke laws then your arguement is flawed. If you havent then there is not much point discussing this with you.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10980 Location: Podunk, Colorado

jasonireland wrote: wolverine, you just proved my point, thank you.

It seems your morals and ethics correlate exactly to what your government says is right and wrong, as you displayed above.
The Constitution isn't the government, but a restraint of government.

Quote: its such a pity people cannot think for themselves, without having to rely on laws and a government that will over time change its constitution too.
Just to think that Constitution was written by 55 free thinking men. Hmmm.....

Quote: So does that mean that your conscious decisions and place in the world relate exactly to what your government is currently telling you what to do?
I base my beliefs on the Constitution, not the changing government.

Quote: if it does, you might as well be a robot.
I'm a free robot. :lol:

Funny how I steer away from the main stream, and find a smaller party that match's my beliefs. :think:

Quote: have you ever smoked pot,
Nope, nor do I plan to.

Quote: ever broke any law in your life?
Not intentionally.

Quote: If you consciensiously have broke laws then your arguement is flawed. If you havent then there is not much point discussing this with you.
Oh but the debate is just starting, you are yet to scrounge up any Articles or Amendments that outline animal rights.

How about you come up with some plan for the health industry to follow when testing new drugs that will save thousands, or even millions of lives if animal testing was banned.

jasonireland · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 189

wolverine , to a certain extent you are avoiding my point.

you base your morals and ethics on law and government(or constitution). i find that a sad idea, i was not talking about animal rights at all, just you and where your conscience lies.

can you see the point i am making? do you not think you should be a free man and think for yourself without relying on the state to do it for you?

Leon Czolgosz · Joined: 05 Apr 2006 Posts: 190

George W Bush wrote: Leon Czolgosz wrote: no, it's just you W.

It seems your PETA supporting, animal rights agenda is corrupting your reality. YOu have place animals on a pedestal equal to humans.

Let me ask this, do you think humans own pets, or do you think humans are the pet's gaurdians?

Wow. What a dumb question!

Anyway, you can give an animal a good home if you so choose. You do that because .. well, you like animals.

You may think me alien or whatever, but Animals are as important to me as human beings. You cant see that even though you have put frozen meat in your fridge for sustenance. I am saying, you dont realize YOURSELF how important and dependent on Animals humans are.

We can spar back and forth on the virtues on dominating animals. I like that we are evolved enough to discern our activity enough that we can control how animals are treated. But, folks such as yourself rely on these primative, almost orangutan-like excuses for treatment of animals. Some of you have gotten as pathetic as quoting the Bible.

At any rate, ive evolved and can tell that Animals have feelings just as human beings do. But, i'm not sure what your species has, Leon. :wink:

so that means you are going to ignore my question then.

It isn't a dumb question as I hear all the time of PETA extremists who claim pets are not owned, but people are the gaurdians. How extreme a PETA supporter are you. Do you own your dog or are you it's gaurdian?

I don't see where you are going with 'meat in my freezer' as I agree that we are dependant on animals for food. I truely believe that is what animals are on earth for, my food, my entertainment, my tools. Not my equals.

But as soon as dogs can tell me they want to be free, I'll help them write the Emancipation Proclamation for doggies (seeings how they can't write without thumbs)

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10980 Location: Podunk, Colorado

jasonireland wrote: wolverine , to a certain extent you are avoiding my point.

you base your morals and ethics on law and government(or constitution). i find that a sad idea, i was not talking about animal rights at all, just you and where your conscience lies.

can you see the point i am making? do you not think you should be a free man and think for yourself without relying on the state to do it for you?
You have no idea what kind of freedoms the Constitution outlines do you?

You are yet to scrounge up any Articles or Amendments that outline animal rights.

Come up with some plan for the health industry to follow when testing new drugs that will save thousands, or even millions of lives if animal testing was banned.

jasonireland · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 189

Wolverine wrote: jasonireland wrote: wolverine , to a certain extent you are avoiding my point.

you base your morals and ethics on law and government(or constitution). i find that a sad idea, i was not talking about animal rights at all, just you and where your conscience lies.

can you see the point i am making? do you not think you should be a free man and think for yourself without relying on the state to do it for you?
You have no idea what kind of freedoms the Constitution outlines do you?

You are yet to scrounge up any Articles or Amendments that outline animal rights.

Come up with some plan for the health industry to follow when testing new drugs that will save thousands, or even millions of lives if animal testing was banned.
yet again you are avoiding my point.which is- you base your morals and ethics on what laws and legislation your government lays down . i think that is sad that you do not think for yourself .have you no free mind ?

Leon Czolgosz · Joined: 05 Apr 2006 Posts: 190

I think it sad that you actually think you are thinking free. :roll:

tell me, if you follow laws, pay taxes, ect, you are a hypocrite as the govt. is telling you what to do and unless they now allow inet access in prison, I assume that you actually follow the laws. That makes you a hypocrite

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10980 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Leon Czolgosz wrote: I think it sad that you actually think you are thinking free. :roll:
And you think out of the box? You many think out of box A, but you will be in box B, either way, you are still in a box.

Quote: tell me, if you follow laws, pay taxes, ect, you are a hypocrite as the govt. is telling you what to do and unless they now allow inet access in prison, I assume that you actually follow the laws. That makes you a hypocrite
:?
I'm not going to prison for 10 years just so I can make an MG. There are laws that are uncostitutional, but I am not going to prison to make a point.

Quote: yet again you are avoiding my point.which is- you base your morals and ethics on what laws and legislation your government lays down . i think that is sad that you do not think for yourself .have you no free mind ?
And you base your views on what?

I base mine on the Constitution, which why I am in the LP.

You haven't read the Constitution have you?

I'll ask again.
You are yet to scrounge up any Articles or Amendments that outline animal rights.

Come up with some plan for the health industry to follow when testing new drugs that will save thousands, or even millions of lives if animal testing was banned.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

jasonireland wrote: Wolverine wrote: jasonireland wrote: wolverine , to a certain extent you are avoiding my point.

you base your morals and ethics on law and government(or constitution). i find that a sad idea, i was not talking about animal rights at all, just you and where your conscience lies.

can you see the point i am making? do you not think you should be a free man and think for yourself without relying on the state to do it for you?
You have no idea what kind of freedoms the Constitution outlines do you?

You are yet to scrounge up any Articles or Amendments that outline animal rights.

Come up with some plan for the health industry to follow when testing new drugs that will save thousands, or even millions of lives if animal testing was banned.
yet again you are avoiding my point.which is- you base your morals and ethics on what laws and legislation your government lays down . i think that is sad that you do not think for yourself .have you no free mind ?

Not certain about your tangent about the government and rights, etc.

However, animals don't have rights. You cannot have rights without responsibilities, and animals cannot have responsibities. They dont' have the consciousness for responsibities. They do not have the understanding that other creatures see.

Chimp Self awareness

Until animals can worry about our rights, they have no rights.

That said, people do have responsibilities towards animals. We should not treat them cruelly without just reasons. We should take care of the animals in our care--food, water, shelter. We should fully use any animal we kill, with the exception of vermin like rats and insects.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10980 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Hey Infinite911911, going to answer the question?

If someone accidentally or purposely shoots your dog, are you going to sue for property lose?

I'm a patient person, I wait for your answer. If you don't answer, I'll just assume its a "yes".

Leon Czolgosz · Joined: 05 Apr 2006 Posts: 190

no, he'll/she'll go for murder charges and seek the death penalty to wrap up the total lunacy of his/her beleif system. I say just eat your dog after the fact and consider it a free meal.

OneZero · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 3413

Leon Czolgosz wrote: no, he'll/she'll go for murder charges and seek the death penalty to wrap up the total lunacy of his/her beleif system. I say just eat your dog after the fact and consider it a free meal.

:rotf:

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Wolverine wrote: jasonireland wrote: so, do you people who consider animals have no rights because its not in the law, does that mean your morals and ethics directly correspond with the country you live in?
Unless you see something in the Constitution giving animals rights, they don't have any.

The Constitution doesn't give rights, it guarantees them. I'm given my rights by my Creator. Animals are not.

Wolfman · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 11

From the dawn of creation, man and dog have shared an uncertain existence together; and of all the relationships in the animal kingdom, no two species have been so united, so mutually dependent, or their bond so taken for granted. A man may leave his wife, abandon his children, and forsake hearth and home; but his faithful dog will follow him to the ends of the earth. What greater love can a man hope for despite all his meanness? - he must be a miserable creature, indeed, to despise such loyalty! In all of heaven, were there ever angels made to serve him better, and yet be denied even the scraps from the Lord’s table?

Good Christian fellow: You can keep your God - and heaven too, for all its cold comfort! - I’d rather a dog for a friend.