Political Crossfire Forums

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2780 Location: The P-Brane

Someone may have asked this before, and if so I am sorry for the repetition, but:

Why do we post our thoughts and opinions here? I have noticed that people rarely change their opinion about anything, and some even get angry or offended when their opinions or beliefs are questioned. This is true of PCF in general, but it seems to apply most to the "religion" section, so I thought I would ask that here.

Personally, I post here because I like to hear people's thoughts about what motivates them to be the way they are. I like it when someone argues with me, and they actually have something really profound or intelligent to say. Most of all, I post in the religion section because I am fairly new to the believer's side of a religion (about 3 years), and I like to discuss the different facets of God (or whatever you call it/them) that people hold as sacred. I don't really post here to have my opinion changed, though it has happened, and I don't do it to change the minds of others, though I will argue with people if I think they are using faulty logic to arrive at their conclusions. What motivates everyone else to post here?

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4206 Location: Florida

Allthough I haven't seened it yet..I think I'm looking for something I've not heard yet...Maybe something that will help me better understand why I think the way I do as well as why believers think the way they do.... Just trying to get some different concepts...

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5360 Location: Boston, MA

wormwood wrote: Someone may have asked this before, and if so I am sorry for the repetition, but:

Why do we post our thoughts and opinions here? I have noticed that people rarely change their opinion about anything, and some even get angry or offended when their opinions or beliefs are questioned. This is true of PCF in general, but it seems to apply most to the "religion" section, so I thought I would ask that here.

Personally, I post here because I like to hear people's thoughts about what motivates them to be the way they are. I like it when someone argues with me, and they actually have something really profound or intelligent to say. Most of all, I post in the religion section because I am fairly new to the believer's side of a religion (about 3 years), and I like to discuss the different facets of God (or whatever you call it/them) that people hold as sacred. I don't really post here to have my opinion changed, though it has happened, and I don't do it to change the minds of others, though I will argue with people if I think they are using faulty logic to arrive at their conclusions. What motivates everyone else to post here?

My motives are identical to yours.

I have great respect for people who have a well thought out position.

I have no issue with being disagreed with. My objection is to disrespect or untruths.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16716 Location: On Earth

Many things motivate me to post here. Among them is my love for religion and the worship of God. Another reason is to unite with those of different faiths who fear God, and explain misconceptions about other people's faith. I also post here in the religion forum to understand more about other faiths and to become more acceptive of other people's beliefs (Judaism, Christianity, athiest, Wiccan, etc.). Granted, I won't change someone's mind, but at least I've spoken mine.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

I've got two purposes here.

First, for people walking eclectic paths, I present my ideas for them to think about-- trying to help them walk their paths. If they confront my ideas, think on them a piece, and eventually reject them, they've made their own ideas and their own commitment to their path stronger.

Whether that'll lead them to being a stronger ally or a stronger enemy, there is honor in doing so.

Second, I post specifically about my own religion for educational purposes. I want other people to know about the Aesir and the Vanir, and the people who honor them. I want to clear up any misconceptions people may have about them, and get people looking into it who've never heard of them.

Silkheat · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 5981 Location: Austin

I speak on this board because it is the only venue I have to discuss religion. I would never talk to friends of mine, or people I know about religion and the facts on why Christianity is not divine at all, along with all the other religions. I wouldn't speak with people about religion because if they are happy then why change that?

However, this is the perfect venue to discuss religion, as I feel people are on this board looking for truth they are open to opposing ideas.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5360 Location: Boston, MA

Silkheat wrote: I speak on this board because it is the only venue I have to discuss religion. I would never talk to friends of mine, or people I know about religion and the facts on why Christianity is not divine at all, along with all the other religions. I wouldn't speak with people about religion because if they are happy then why change that?

However, this is the perfect venue to discuss religion, as I feel people are on this board looking for truth they are open to opposing ideas.

A sincere quetion on the next level.

Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

I hope I'm not changing the subject, it is a sincere interest to understand both the reason for someone who does NOT believe in something to be compelled to discuss it and more over be so angry in doing so.

(this is not referring to you in particular just generalizing my experience here and seeking some input from those who are here)

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

Because it's the truth.

Rilzic · Joined: 22 May 2005 Posts: 385 Location: Alb, NM, USA

wormwood wrote: Someone may have asked this before, and if so I am sorry for the repetition, but:

Why do we post our thoughts and opinions here? I have noticed that people rarely change their opinion about anything, and some even get angry or offended when their opinions or beliefs are questioned. This is true of PCF in general, but it seems to apply most to the "religion" section, so I thought I would ask that here.

I have been proven wrong when it come to people not changing the views here on PCF. in this post: http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52578&highlight=

you can see a few people have changed their views on gay marrage which is a religious topic. Personally i like reading posts on religion like this one:
http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52680&highlight=
(read connermt's posts) because I am just short of knowing everything and people like connermt help me get their.

Silkheat · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 5981 Location: Austin

Gilbert1908 wrote:

A sincere quetion on the next level.

Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

Well I wouldn't classify myself as an athiest, but I understand your point. Truth is people, like athiest, don't really attack christianity, but defend themselves from it and all the perversions it creates.

Christians have a tendency to try to force their morality on others. To a person who thinks that the believing in the bible is ignorant, why should I be subjected to christian morality?

Drug laws, anti abortion laws, nudity laws, stem cell reaearch, cloning,etc are all ties to a theocratic government. The same church/state our founding fathers escaped from in England.

I will always defend people's rights for freedom, even christians, but christians need to learn to back off the limiting of others freedoms. Christianiy is not a patent on morality.

ideal · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 213 Location: Wyoming

I come here because I am still learning my path and every person I can learn from is a blessing. I post so that I can provide others with the same service I am recieving.

On another note:

Quote: Drug laws, anti abortion laws, nudity laws, stem cell reaearch, cloning,etc are all ties to a theocratic government.

Nudity laws are a result of general decency and unnecessary temptation. The others are not opposed biblically. Christianity's greatest mistake was to leave the teachings of the bible behind.

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2780 Location: The P-Brane

Thanks for the great answers everyone.

Quote: My motives are identical to yours. Obviously Gilbert's got a good head on his shoulders :lol:

Quote: Many things motivate me to post here. Among them is my love for religion and the worship of God. Another reason is to unite with those of different faiths who fear God, and explain misconceptions about other people's faith. I also post here in the religion forum to understand more about other faiths and to become more acceptive of other people's beliefs (Judaism, Christianity, athiest, Wiccan, etc.). I think you do a good job easing people's misconceptions about Islam, or Muslim's at least... it is hard for anyone to say all Muslims are savages when we talk to such a genuine and decent one every day... but don't get me wrong, you're still a punk who is in the Pat Robertson fan club :lol:

Quote: First, for people walking eclectic paths, I present my ideas for them to think about-- trying to help them walk their paths. If they confront my ideas, think on them a piece, and eventually reject them, they've made their own ideas and their own commitment to their path stronger. That is partially confusing about you, on the one hand you are very practical about your religion, yet you have a firm understanding of esoteric concepts you may or may not believe in. Makes it pretty tricky to debate you I must say.

Quote: Second, I post specifically about my own religion for educational purposes. I want other people to know about the Aesir and the Vanir, and the people who honor them. I want to clear up any misconceptions people may have about them, and get people looking into it who've never heard of them. I know this is off topic, but didn't someone specifically single out your religion in the "pagan" sub-forum as the worst religion? :lol: You have your work cut out for you it seems.

Quote: Well I like the debate. It can very passionate and I love the passion. Also, I like to learn about other people's views and beliefs
Now that you mention it, people's passion will make me join a conversation that isn't really all that interesting.... I usually partially disagree with both sides and end up taking a brunt of the verbal punishment :lol:

These are all great answers, and a little surprising honestly. With the level of passion that flies around the religion area, I thought for sure it was SOMEONE'S intention to convert other people. Some people accuse atheists of this, but what they do is actually different, and I will explain in my next post. It seems that those of us with religion either come to connect with each other and discuss the logistics of certain beliefs or aspects of God, or to take the mystery (and therefore horror) out of our lesser know religions or denominations. I heard a few people say that they like being intelligently refuted; it's like we come to sharpen our claws and strengthen our beliefs instead of bringing each other down (which is how it may look to an outside observer). Thanks again everyone 8:)

Silkheat · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 5981 Location: Austin

ideal wrote:

Nudity laws are a result of general decency and unnecessary temptation. The others are not opposed biblically. Christianity's greatest mistake was to leave the teachings of the bible behind.

See? This is what I was demonstrating. Here is a christian who derives his concept of general decency from his/her religion and believes it should be enforced on others.

Nudity is not so feared in other countries, and they have lower crime rates than us. What is wrong with showing breasts? Why is killing so accepted and the natural form so feared? Do you see the pervesions christianity causes in people?

Quote: Christianity's greatest mistake was to leave the teachings of the bible behind

Which ones? There are many vial teachings in the bible that I don't event hink you would accept. Let us not forget the many of factions of christianity that don't interpret the bible the same way.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4206 Location: Florida

John wrote: Quote: Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

Because it's the truth.

You can't handle the truth...

In my eyes it is a lie....And I don't attack but defend....

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5360 Location: Boston, MA

Silkheat wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:

A sincere quetion on the next level.

Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

Well I wouldn't classify myself as an athiest, but I understand your point. Truth is people, like athiest, don't really attack christianity, but defend themselves from it and all the perversions it creates.

Christians have a tendency to try to force their morality on others. To a person who thinks that the believing in the bible is ignorant, why should I be subjected to christian morality?

Drug laws, anti abortion laws, nudity laws, stem cell reaearch, cloning,etc are all ties to a theocratic government. The same church/state our founding fathers escaped from in England.

I will always defend people's rights for freedom, even christians, but christians need to learn to back off the limiting of others freedoms. Christianiy is not a patent on morality.

I too am advocate of church/state independence, but seperation of institutions, does not and can not limit the free speech of individuals and if enough individuals agree on a thing then the representatives of those people are going to create laws reflecting that sentiment.

You would most likely find yourself in a very small minority if you are against any restrictions on any of those things you listed with the exception of abortion.

And if I may point out almost ALL of the scientific community is against human cloning for obvious reasons, and those Christians who do oppose research oppose the use of HUMAN EMBRYOS, not stem cell research in general.

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2780 Location: The P-Brane

To the Atheists:

Quote: Allthough I haven't seened it yet..I think I'm looking for something I've not heard yet...Maybe something that will help me better understand why I think the way I do as well as why believers think the way they do.... Just trying to get some different concepts... This is exactly why I discussed religion when I was an atheist/agnostic. Religious people will often think you are trying to convert them to atheism with your constant questions and criticisms, what they do not realize (and I may be wrong) is that you WANT to be wrong. All your questions and subjecting yourself to the same religious people that you feel are being illogical, are both in the hope that you are wrong and one of these days, one of these religious guys is going to lay some profound truth down and you will be relieved, because your vision of spirituality does not require you to suspend your disbelief...it makes sense to your logic. Of course these are probably not surface thoughts...but think about it, am I close? Every time you say something like,(i'm not Christian BTW this is just an example) "there couldn't have been an Adam and Eve, or we would all be inbred" or some other classic atheist logic, you don't want that person to stop believing, you want them to say something like," well aside from the fact that there were clearly other people alive in the genesis account that were not mentioned by name, what about the mitochondrial eve whom science says every human being descended from?"

Quote: I speak on this board because it is the only venue I have to discuss religion. I would never talk to friends of mine, or people I know about religion and the facts on why Christianity is not divine at all, along with all the other religions. I wouldn't speak with people about religion because if they are happy then why change that?

However, this is the perfect venue to discuss religion, as I feel people are on this board looking for truth they are open to opposing ideas.
The same to you silk... this statement shows you have no interest in ruining other people's happiness...yet you go out of your way to be around religious people to discuss religion. Could it be that you too are just waiting on something to make sense? I do not presume that EVERY atheist (or agnostic in your case?) wants to be wrong, but I was one for almost 10 years, and I had many friends that were atheist and we NEVER turned down a chance to debate religion...part of that was my own arrogance, and part of that was me hoping that I would give the best, most logical argument against the existence of God, then have it ripped to pieces by even more profound logic, it just took me a while to realize what I was looking for.

Quote: A sincere quetion on the next level.

Why are so many atheists compelled to attack religion and Christianity in particular?

I hope I'm not changing the subject, it is a sincere interest to understand both the reason for someone who does NOT believe in something to be compelled to discuss it and more over be so angry in doing so. You're not off topic at all, I wanted to discuss people's motivations and I had atheists partially in mind because I have been on both sides of that argument. For me, Christianity was just an effigy for the religiously overbearing south where I grew up. I hated the people, and especially how smug they were about religion...I determined that anything those morons could believe HAD to be wrong. When people first turn from religion, there seems to be a lot of hostility, especially toward the catalyst of that turn. As time passed and I was taken out of that environment, and put into one where religion is really kind of looked down on (California)...at which point I determined, anything THESE morons believe can't be right either. I think Christianity just gets it because it is the predominant religion in the U.S., therefore the predominant catalyst for the turn from religion. Once a person is jaded, a Christians good faith, just seems like asinine self righteousness and both people( religious and non) look at each other with pity.

Quote: Well I wouldn't classify myself as an athiest, but I understand your point. Truth is people, like athiest, don't really attack christianity, but defend themselves from it and all the perversions it creates That would SEEM to be the case....unless you take into account that every single U.S. based religious message board has at least a resident atheist... I have never been to one without an atheist popping up. Is that a preemptive defense? Or are the atheists on a quest?

Quote: Christians have a tendency to try to force their morality on others. To a person who thinks that the believing in the bible is ignorant, why should I be subjected to christian morality? This is partially what makes people jaded in the first place... All I can say silk, is please just try to judge the religion on it's merits and not it's followers.

ideal · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 213 Location: Wyoming

Silkheat wrote: ideal wrote:

Nudity laws are a result of general decency and unnecessary temptation. The others are not opposed biblically. Christianity's greatest mistake was to leave the teachings of the bible behind.

See? This is what I was demonstrating. Here is a christian who derives his concept of general decency from his/her religion and believes it should be enforced on others.

You don't seem to read very well. Aside from not being Christian, I just pointed out that Christians(motivated by their beliefs) are trying to put forth laws that there holy texts don't support.

Quote: Nudity is not so feared in other countries, and they have lower crime rates than us. What is wrong with showing breasts? Why is killing so accepted and the natural form so feared? Do you see the pervesions christianity causes in people?

Again you're confusing my intended statement. I was saying nothing of religion. Prohibition of nudity is a cultural phenomena which is not dependant on Christianity.

Quote: Quote: Christianity's greatest mistake was to leave the teachings of the bible behind

Which ones? There are many vial teachings in the bible that I don't event hink you would accept. Let us not forget the many of factions of christianity that don't interpret the bible the same way.

Actually, I've just established that, by my understanding, no factions of Christianity interpret the bible in the way it seems to have been intended. I myself am a fan of the teachings of Christ. Modern Christians, however, seem to focus on bastardized interpretations of Jewish law. That would be the same Jews who rallied for a certain heretics death.

frunabulax · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 132

wormwood wrote: This is exactly why I discussed religion when I was an atheist/agnostic. Religious people will often think you are trying to convert them to atheism with your constant questions and criticisms, what they do not realize (and I may be wrong) is that you WANT to be wrong.

Indeed you are wrong. It would be innaccurate to formulate all your conceptions of atheists based soley on your own personal experience. Furthermore, the fact that you wanted so bad to be wrong suggests to me that you were never an atheist to begin with but what I like to call closet theists, basically a person who can't quite admit (to themselves and others) that they harbor a secret belief in a diety.

There is also the notion that somehow all atheists believe in the same thing and for the same reasons. This just isn't the case. Atheists disagree with each other all the time, from wether jesus actually existed to the nature of knowledge amongst other things. For me, atheist arguments tend to be more interesting as everyone is starting on the same page, objective fact ie what do we know, rather than theists who base their arguments (religious arguments to be sure) on subjective faith. Make no mistake, there is no way faith can be objective. It is by definition a subjective experience.

Finally, there is absolutely nothing that I see that suggests to me that the motivation of all atheists to post here or anywhere else is the same. You would not suggest the same for christians or any theists so I think it is unfair to do so with atheists. As for people trying to convert others, since there is no unified atheist belief system, I guess it all depends on the person. As far as christians are concerned, regarding evangelicals specifically, their philosophy is firmly based on evangelism (hence the name) which means to preach, or rather proseletyze, or to put it simply, try to convert. From our friends at wiki:

Quote: The word evangelicalism usually refers to a tendency in diverse branches of conservative Christianity, typified by an emphasis on evangelism, a personal experience of conversion, biblically-oriented faith, and a belief in the relevance of Christian faith to cultural issues.

My questions for believers and non believers alike is (and I don't want to hijack this thread so you can PM me) what is the scriptural basis for all this proseletyzing? The wiki article mentions John 3:3 but is there more? I certainly would like to know, I have scoured the web and have come up with nothing.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2055 Location: Somewhere

I'm interested in discussing religion because it has had, and still is having, such a profound affect on humanity. Whether we admit it or not, for better or for worse, the religious beliefs people have can and do affect our lives on a daily basis. For an atheist such as myself, and a secular humanist to boot, to attempt to learn nothing about these beliefs would be utterly irrational.

Cheers, Eternal

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2780 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Indeed you are wrong. It would be innaccurate to formulate all your conceptions of atheists based soley on your own personal experience Since when do you answer for Feeder? Also, my position is not based on just myself, but also the 20 or so atheists I grew up with (approx. 15 now practice some form of religion...most are Buddhists)

Quote: Furthermore, the fact that you wanted so bad to be wrong suggests to me that you were never an atheist to begin with but what I like to call closet theists, basically a person who can't quite admit (to themselves and others) that they harbor a secret belief in a diety Read what I said again, I didn't know that I wanted to be wrong...it just occurred to me after a few years of dead end debates that I still sought out for some reason. Trust me, I was as anti-christian/ anti-God as a person can be without the use of violence :twisted:

Quote: Atheists disagree with each other all the time, from wether jesus actually existed to the nature of knowledge amongst other things So do theists...what's your point? No one said all atheists believe the same thing...in fact I said:
Quote: I do not presume that EVERY atheist (or agnostic in your case?) wants to be wrong, but I was one for almost 10 years... I was merely stating that people with outlooks like those expressed by Feederband, might actually be more open minded than they thought, based on my experience and that of the people I grew up with. On top of this, it is not hard to see myself in some of the angry atheist protests, and I know now where I was coming from with the same arguments. Don't worry I realize that there are plenty of people that will die as atheists, and not everyone is looking for something.

Quote: For me, atheist arguments tend to be more interesting as everyone is starting on the same page, objective fact ie what do we know, rather than theists who base their arguments (religious arguments to be sure) on subjective faith :lol: This is the biggest load of crap.... what objective facts can you offer to support atheism? You use just as much faith if not more, to arrive at your conclusions. Condemning religious people for basing arguments on unprovable facts, when you do the exact same thing seems rather hypocritical.

There is another type of atheist....type b( for the sake of conversation) atheists usually arrive at their conclusions through the use of science and or reason, which in itself is a sort of religion. The only problem is, I have yet to hear a convincing argument that is not full of logical gaps...big bang, evolution, and all of the staples of atheism really don't make much sense once you take more advanced sciences and learn that these theories are nothing more than best guess approximations. I think the research done on the human genome is pretty suggestive of creationism which is the exact opposite of it's intended effect. This isn't a science lecture, but you get the idea.

Quote: Make no mistake, there is no way faith can be objective. It is by definition a subjective experience. The same is true with life, or pain, or fear, or happiness....are these things any less real because of that?

Quote: Finally, there is absolutely nothing that I see that suggests to me that the motivation of all atheists to post here or anywhere else is the same. You would not suggest the same for Christians or any theists so I think it is unfair to do so with atheists. Wrong again champ. I did suggest that all theist came here for very similar reasons, however I did not say that this was the case of the atheists here...what I said to the atheists was more intended for the people that had already posted, and not you. Also, take this into account: I have known many atheists in my life, I know the nature of people.... no matter how correct I may be, if you are not ready to hear it, or if you just want to disagree with anybody who's religious you are not going to admit to or even entertain my opinions. If like Feederband, you are simply debating to hear things you have not yet heard, then you would probably be in a more open place to actually do some objective research on the subject.

Like I said, it is not my intention to convert anyone (I am already kind of ashamed of some of the people associated with my religion :lol: ), but I will argue with faulty logic....and you sir, have some faulty logic. If you truly want to be objective about this, then where's your data? The only "rational" people are agnostics if we are to be truly objective about this.

Quote: I'm interested in discussing religion because it has had, and still is having, such a profound affect on humanity. Whether we admit it or not, for better or for worse, the religious beliefs people have can and do affect our lives on a daily basis. For an atheist such as myself, and a secular humanist to boot, to attempt to learn nothing about these beliefs would be utterly irrational. Good point....along the lines of know your enemy, without the hostile sound :lol: . While I do think religions have a profound potential to shape human behavior and possibly greater aspects, I definitely see the danger and craziness that can erupt from any religion and believe governments should be completely secular for that reason.