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VBach37
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2056
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The bread and wine at the last supper is a metaphor, not to be taken literally. The wine did not turn into blood, and the bread was definitely not human flesh. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that the disciples were cannibals? :wink: |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: The bread and wine at the last supper is a metaphor, not to be taken literally.
What are they a metaphor for, Bach?
I'm not a person who believes in transubstantiation and did not make any reference to this, so I don't really see how your point that this is a metaphor is relevant. |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: 1Co 15:3 -
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
This is a clue what that statement is a metaphor for. I suppose you will now tell me the Bible is not trustworthy. |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: VBach37 wrote: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Odd.... John 3:16 doesn't even mention sins, nevermind claim that Jesus died for them. :think:
Actually it's context does, but you probably won't recognize this, unless you are familiar with the Tanahk and it's symbolism, it is a parable that relates, in symbolic language, that Y'shua took our sins on His shoulders as a propitiary sacrifice (a paschal lamb) in order for YHWH forgive our sins. This sacrifice is symbolized by the brass serpent that Moses lifted up. Brass is associated with judgment, and serpents are associated with sin, so a brass serpent being lifted up represents the judgment of sin. Just as the Lamb took this judgment for our sins in our stead, so that we may have eternal life.
What context are you talking about?
John 3 is about being born again... not about sacrifices.. |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4206
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T............. |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24707
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul....or you living in the riches of the US...hearing the Truth...rejecting it and spending eternity in Hell?
You really assume to know more than you possibly could. Don’t you know that what we see as poor are really rich and the rich are really poor? |
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sLiPpY
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 10198
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
oh, but God will send that wonderful example of err...overnurishment Sally Struthers! |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right?? |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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John wrote: Don’t you know that what we see as poor are really rich and the rich are really poor?
I'm familiar w/ this "quote" more in the context of "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (or some such thing). I'm not sure there's anything in the Bible that really says what you just tried to say (although I could be wrong).
If there is, could you cite chapter and verse? |
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sLiPpY
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 10198
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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psholtz wrote: John wrote: Don’t you know that what we see as poor are really rich and the rich are really poor?
I'm familiar w/ this "quote" more in the context of "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (or some such thing). I'm not sure there's anything in the Bible that really says what you just tried to say (although I could be wrong).
If there is, could you cite chapter and verse?
Blessed are the cheesemakers! |
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superchick
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 6568
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Random Evil Guy wrote: superchick wrote:
OH looky, this one had the direct opposite outcome.
http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2001/11/20/52.asp
could you refer to the actualy study and in what peer-review scientific magazine it was published in?
i know there have been studies that showed a marginal difference, but the sample data was way too small and in other cases the study itself wasn't unbiased(placebo effect).
think of it this way; toss a coin ten times. if you get heads 7-8 times you might think that the coin might be biased, but the sample data is too small.every serious, and unbiased, study shows the same thing. prayer doesn't work...
Did you see the experiment you can perform at home on your own I posted. Get back with the forum in a month. Find out for your self. |
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SilveryMinnow
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 3143
Location: Rio Grande River
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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psholtz wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right??
No, it goes to limbo, which is like sitting in a closet with the light turned off.
I think the Lord will relent on this, and wait for the decision of the church. |
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VBach37
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2056
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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SilveryMinnow wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right??
No, it goes to limbo, which is like sitting in a closet with the light turned off.
I think the Lord will relent on this, and wait for the decision of the church.
You do realize, don't you, that Limbo is entirely a construct of Dante Alighieri for the Divine Comedy? There is absolutely nothing in any literature predating Dante that mentions it, and it's certainly not in the Bible. |
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savingtheworld
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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VBach37 wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right??
No, it goes to limbo, which is like sitting in a closet with the light turned off.
I think the Lord will relent on this, and wait for the decision of the church.
You do realize, don't you, that Limbo is entirely a construct of Dante Alighieri for the Divine Comedy? There is absolutely nothing in any literature predating Dante that mentions it, and it's certainly not in the Bible.
the man is correct!!! there is no mention of limbo anywhere in the Bible, it is totally man's invention. |
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savingtheworld
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: VBach37 wrote: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Odd.... John 3:16 doesn't even mention sins, nevermind claim that Jesus died for them. :think:
Actually it's context does, but you probably won't recognize this, unless you are familiar with the Tanahk and it's symbolism, it is a parable that relates, in symbolic language, that Y'shua took our sins on His shoulders as a propitiary sacrifice (a paschal lamb) in order for YHWH forgive our sins. This sacrifice is symbolized by the brass serpent that Moses lifted up. Brass is associated with judgment, and serpents are associated with sin, so a brass serpent being lifted up represents the judgment of sin. Just as the Lamb took this judgment for our sins in our stead, so that we may have eternal life.
What context are you talking about?
John 3 is about being born again... not about sacrifices..
ummmmm, yes........ the only reason we can be born again is because Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for our sins!! thats kinda the whole point. |
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SilveryMinnow
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 3143
Location: Rio Grande River
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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VBach37 wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right??
No, it goes to limbo, which is like sitting in a closet with the light turned off.
I think the Lord will relent on this, and wait for the decision of the church.
You do realize, don't you, that Limbo is entirely a construct of Dante Alighieri for the Divine Comedy? There is absolutely nothing in any literature predating Dante that mentions it, and it's certainly not in the Bible.
Not anymore, Im quoting Mother Teresa. So it wouldnt be in the Bible would it. (But been there). |
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VBach37
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2056
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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SilveryMinnow wrote: VBach37 wrote: SilveryMinnow wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: You complain that God doesn't step into to help these people and save them from their irresponsibility. Now if god came in and fixed everything would that be just or right? People need to start being responsiblie for their actions. Let me guess your a socialist or a communist?
Niether...I'm talking about a baby---newborn--"a soul" This baby had no controll over who his parents were...Lets say they were farmers in a third world..Poor to our standards but getting though life in their standard of thinking...Now 2 years of drought set in ,locust destoy crops...Now child hasn't eaten for a week..The child's parents aren't irresponsible just in the wrong place at the wrong time....If god was to step in he would be right and just but he wont...God can't and wont do a thing because.......HE CAN'T.............
So what's worse? That baby dying and going to Heaven as an innocent soul...
Whoa! Now slow down there, killer!! :lol:
I thought all Souls are born in Original Sin(???).. if this dying baby hasn't been properly baptized, then it's obviously going to end up in Hell, right??
No, it goes to limbo, which is like sitting in a closet with the light turned off.
I think the Lord will relent on this, and wait for the decision of the church.
You do realize, don't you, that Limbo is entirely a construct of Dante Alighieri for the Divine Comedy? There is absolutely nothing in any literature predating Dante that mentions it, and it's certainly not in the Bible.
Not anymore, Im quoting Mother Teresa. So it wouldnt be in the Bible would it. (But been there).
oh, well if Mother Teresa said Limbo is real, than it must be so! :roll: |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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savingtheworld wrote: ummmmm, yes........ the only reason we can be born again is because Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for our sins!! thats kinda the whole point.
uummmmm... I don't see anything about an "ultimate sacrifice" in John 3.. I just see a commandment to be born again.. |
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Random Evil Guy
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 1805
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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savingtheworld wrote: it(limbo) is totally man's invention.
...so is the bible... |
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sgtshortness
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Random Evil Guy wrote: savingtheworld wrote: it(limbo) is totally man's invention.
...so is the bible...
Thank you. |
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