Political Crossfire Forums

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

I find the whole concept of praying amusing to say the least.

Praying is only useful in a psychological sense as it makes you feel positive. Indeed, if we look at the pattern of prayers, it is an act that occurs when one feels helpless. In this regard, they call on god through their prayers to do something for them.

Amazingly, prayers that are answered are usually the ones where the person himself or herself does something with regards to their demands. So in effect, the prayer was just some superficial act that only had a mental effect.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: So you are saying to ask God to help you with a problem in your life, no matter how small or large it may be, is black magic? You are truly out on a limb with that one, my friend. And you are sawing furiously.

Why haven't you learned anything yet?
Besides, I fail to see how John's example has anything to do w/ serving God's Will or expressing devotion to the Lord..

Are you sure this is the only legitimate use of prayer? If it is, why did Y'shua tell us this?
Quote: Mr 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

I fail to see what you think you will gain by judging the value of what someone else prays about. It is something that matters to him, and so it matters to God no matter how worthless and despicable you think it is. You have a log sticking out of your eye. Tend to that, before you worry about deciding to tell us what others should or shouldn't pray about. Are the subjects of your prayers so much more "enlightened", that you think it is your business that you should tell people what they should pray about?

Is this an example of the high-minded work that you are always supposedly doing?

Open your eyes, my friend.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

Snarf wrote: Apparently, God doesn't work like a snack machine so save your pennies. It also looks like depending on God to help you out just might keep you from helping yourself...

Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

it only confirms previous studies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4681771.stm

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

Anjire2 wrote: Snarf wrote: Apparently, God doesn't work like a snack machine so save your pennies. It also looks like depending on God to help you out just might keep you from helping yourself...

Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

God doesn't work like a vending machine and trying to test specifically for this vendorizing, it is no wonder there were not significant results. This type of study as Cap'n pointed out is only useful to those that wish to attack. It would have done nothing bolster my understanding of the power of Prayer even if there were significant positive results. When you experience it on daily basis, you know. Knock it or discount it however you wish, it will not change my attitude or continual application of prayer.

first of all, john says god does work like a vending machine. second, is god such a proud sob that he refuse to help heart patients if someone is objectively registering it...?

prayer doesn't work. every study shows that. there is no evidence that prayer has ever worked. this study is just another piece, in a long line, of evidence against the existance of any 'god'...

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

psholtz wrote: When a bunch of posers (of the Matthew 7:21-23 variety), calling themselves "Christians", get together and "pray", there's really no rational reason to expect any great results..

I think praying works in 2 ways:
1 - If it DOES help the person/siutation you are praying for, then GREAT!
2 - It helps the mental health of people doing the praying

I would never ask someone not to pray or to stop praying even if I don't believe in it because at least it might help the people doing the praying to feel better - nothing wrong with that.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?

Well, spending $10-15 a night was starting to eat my lunch after three months strait.

And my first reaction was to complain to my wife about it....but something inside of me just said to let her be and give her what she's asking for and bring the problem to the Lord.

You see, that's how God wants us to handle our problems with other people. Instead of becoming confrontational and causing more problems by trying to solve the problem our own way. I just put my trust in the Lord and let Him handle it His way. And His way was the best way.

Instead of my wife feeling resentful, like I'm making her cook dinner. She feels good about herself....she prolly feels like she has listened to that small still voice of God...and she has. :-D

I only gave this example because it just happened. God answers my prayers all the time...in His own way and in His own timing. And I praise Him for being such a great God. You guys really don't know what you're missing.

Anjire2 · Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 569

Random Evil Guy wrote: Anjire2 wrote: Snarf wrote: Apparently, God doesn't work like a snack machine so save your pennies. It also looks like depending on God to help you out just might keep you from helping yourself...

Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

God doesn't work like a vending machine and trying to test specifically for this vendorizing, it is no wonder there were not significant results. This type of study as Cap'n pointed out is only useful to those that wish to attack. It would have done nothing bolster my understanding of the power of Prayer even if there were significant positive results. When you experience it on daily basis, you know. Knock it or discount it however you wish, it will not change my attitude or continual application of prayer.

first of all, john says god does work like a vending machine. second, is god such a pride sob that he refuse to help heart patients if someone is objectively registering it...?

prayer doesn't work. every study shows that. there is no evidence that prayer has ever worked. this study is just another piece, in a long line, of evidence against the existance of any 'god'...

First of all...I don't see John mentioned in my post. If you follow some of the other threads, you will probably notice that John and I don't agree on some Christians concepts.

Second of all...Are you looking for a snap of the finger "Bling" they are cured answer to prove that prayer works? How do you know that the prayers were not answered? We don't have all the details of the study, just someone's biased interpretation of the data. With prayer, don't count on immediacy. Also, The point of prayer is draw someone closer to God. It is not to ask for your will to be done, it is to ask that God's will to be done. And I will leave it at that because we will never be in agreement or see eye to eye on interpretting God's will. We have very different lenses that we are looking through. Like I said, knock it all you want, let it bolster your "proof" of God's inexistence. It will do nothing for me one way or the other.

Third of all...As i mentioned above biased interpretation. Their only test for proof that prayer work's is a patient's "recovery. " Vendorizing. Did they look into the spiritual impact (growth or otherwise) of the patient? family members? friends? Etc...

Anjire2 · Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 569

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?

Well, spending $10-15 a night was starting to eat my lunch after three months strait.

And my first reaction was to complain to my wife about it....but something inside of me just said to let her be and give her what she's asking for and bring the problem to the Lord.

You see, that's how God wants us to handle our problems with other people. Instead of becoming confrontational and causing more problems by trying to solve the problem our own way. I just put my trust in the Lord and let Him handle it His way. And His way was the best way.

Instead of my wife feeling resentful, like I'm making her cook dinner. She feels good about herself....she prolly feels like she has listened to that small still voice of God...and she has. :-D

I only gave this example because it just happened. God answers my prayers all the time...in His own way and in His own timing. And I praise Him for being such a great God. You guys really don't know what you're missing.

That is a great story and note the key point John stated Asking God to handle it in his own way...ie.
Not our will, but God's will. Thus, Not Vendorizied.

Thanks for clarifying that point John.

Despite our clashes, I believe our view of God is much more similiar then it is different. We are just rather passionate. :)

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: So you are saying to ask God to help you with a problem in your life, no matter how small or large it may be, is black magic? You are truly out on a limb with that one, my friend. And you are sawing furiously.

Why haven't you learned anything yet?
Besides, I fail to see how John's example has anything to do w/ serving God's Will or expressing devotion to the Lord..

Are you sure this is the only legitimate use of prayer?
To a first approximation, yes it is .. Have a look at James 4:3

If it be the Lord's Will, then let it be done. Otherwise, be very, very careful about "praying" for it..

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?
Yes, it is unbelievably selfish..

And like I said before, anybody who uses spiritual powers to serve their own selfish interests is guilty of practicing Black Magic.. Just thank God that John is as weak and powerless in his invocations and incantations as he is.. anybody who's heart is as clouded as John's is by selfish desires and who *does* succeed in matering these spiritual forces can become a collossal menace to mankind..

Anjire2 · Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 569

psholtz wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?
Yes, it is unbelievably selfish..

And like I said before, anybody who uses spiritual powers to serve their own selfish interests is guilty of practicing Black Magic.. Just thank God that John is as weak and powerless in his invocations and incantations as he is.. anybody who's heart is as clouded as John's is by selfish desires and who *does* succeed in matering these spiritual forces can become a collossal menace to mankind..

I think it initially sounded selfish, but only because John didn't take the time to expand on it like he did in a later post.

As to the later part of your post... :shock: What?!? Please expand on this concept if you will.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?
Yes, it is unbelievably selfish..

And like I said before, anybody who uses spiritual powers to serve their own selfish interests is guilty of practicing Black Magic.. Just thank God that John is as weak and powerless in his invocations and incantations as he is.. anybody who's heart is as clouded as John's is by selfish desires and who *does* succeed in matering these spiritual forces can become a collossal menace to mankind..

I'm not talking about "powers"...I just asked God to help me with the problem and He did.

Why wouldn't it be God's will that my family eat healthy? Why wouldn't it be God's will for my wife to do her part in running our home? Why wouldn't it be God's will that I not waste so much money on junk food? I have many responsibilities that require money that that money can be put towards.

Do you really think I should have just demanded my way with my wife? I'm sorry but that's foolish and just plain wrong. You’ve got a lot to learn in regards to women if that your attitude.

I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: I'm not talking about "powers"...I just asked God to help me with the problem and He did.
Asking God to help you is asking for God's power to intervene in your life. So yes, it is a cry for power.

Quote: Why wouldn't it be God's will that my family eat healthy?
Perhaps b/c they don't deserve to.

If you've disobeyed Divine Law, you have no choice but to reap tares for your disobedience.

Quote: Do you really think I should have just demanded my way with my wife?
Yes.

Quote: I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.
How can God intervene in your life in any way if He is infinite and eternal?

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4206 Location: Florida

John wrote: I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

Then why waste a prayer on you getting a home cooked meal when a good chunk of the planet is starving...Is this the best your god can do ?
Give a home cooked meal!!!! Pray for something that has real meaning instead of these petty things....Ask your god to do some of the great things...Supposabley he's done great things for people in the past...Why hasn't he done anything lately....? If he's involved in everything then he has only brought misery to his people...

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

feederband wrote: John wrote: I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

Then why waste a prayer on you getting a home cooked meal when a good chunk of the planet is starving...Is this the best your god can do ?
Very well said! :-D
Quote: Give a home cooked meal!!!! Pray for something that has real meaning instead of these petty things....
Again, very well said!

The Law is that you must give to receive..

I wonder how many "Christians" understand this..

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

John wrote: psholtz wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Prayer works for me. :-D

It's AMAZING to see God answer prayer.

Which one did he answer...I hope it was aprayer that mattered..Like a cure for aids or feed the starving...

Which one? You mean today? :-D

Any Day....name a prayer that he answered for you....

your wife

My wife started cooking again yesterday. She'd been asking for take out for about three months and I was getting sick of it. So instead of jumping on her about it...I just pray that the Lord would put it upon her heart and within 2 days she just started cooking.

I think all go now and enjoy a home cooked meal. :-D

Why I waited three months to pray about it is the real mystery.

is it just me, or did this story sound unbelieveably selfish...?
Yes, it is unbelievably selfish..

And like I said before, anybody who uses spiritual powers to serve their own selfish interests is guilty of practicing Black Magic.. Just thank God that John is as weak and powerless in his invocations and incantations as he is.. anybody who's heart is as clouded as John's is by selfish desires and who *does* succeed in matering these spiritual forces can become a collossal menace to mankind..

I'm not talking about "powers"...I just asked God to help me with the problem and He did.

Why wouldn't it be God's will that my family eat healthy? Why wouldn't it be God's will for my wife to do her part in running our home? Why wouldn't it be God's will that I not waste so much money on junk food? I have many responsibilities that require money that that money can be put towards.

Do you really think I should have just demanded my way with my wife? I'm sorry but that's foolish and just plain wrong. You’ve got a lot to learn in regards to women if that your attitude.

I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

so you asked 'god' to change her mind; to influence her? to make her do something she obviously didn't want to do? she hadn't cooked for three months, so you asked god to 'change' her? selfish? absolutely...

how about getting off your fat ass and cook your own meal...? :-D

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

feederband wrote: John wrote: I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

Then why waste a prayer on you getting a home cooked meal when a good chunk of the planet is starving...Is this the best your god can do ?
Give a home cooked meal!!!! Pray for something that has real meaning instead of these petty things....Ask your god to do some of the great things...Supposabley he's done great things for people in the past...Why hasn't he done anything lately....? If he's involved in everything then he has only brought misery to his people...

You asked me to give you one example..and I gave you the latest example that I've personally experienced.

Why attack me? All I did was answer your question.

Do you think it would be wise to share something really personal with you?
You attacked me over little things....

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

Anjire2 wrote:
Are you looking for a snap of the finger "Bling" they are cured answer to prove that prayer works?

a significant(at least noticeably) difference between the two test groups.

Anjire2 wrote:
Third of all...As i mentioned above biased interpretation. Their only test for proof that prayer work's is a patient's "recovery. " Vendorizing. Did they look into the spiritual impact (growth or otherwise) of the patient? family members? friends? Etc...

heh, whatever... :lol:

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4206 Location: Florida

John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: I think I'll continue to depend on God for EVERYTHING in my life. He only answers prayers that are in His will anyway.

Then why waste a prayer on you getting a home cooked meal when a good chunk of the planet is starving...Is this the best your god can do ?
Give a home cooked meal!!!! Pray for something that has real meaning instead of these petty things....Ask your god to do some of the great things...Supposabley he's done great things for people in the past...Why hasn't he done anything lately....? If he's involved in everything then he has only brought misery to his people...

You asked me to give you one example..and I gave you the latest example that I've personally experienced.

Why attack me? All I did was answer your question.

Do you think it would be wise to share something really personal with you?
You attacked me over little things....

Not attacking you ....Attacking what you pray for...Does it make much sense to pray for a home cooked meal when millions are starving....I'm just saying I think alot of people pray for such petty things and when they come true like the home cooked meal prayer the say it was a act of god...I had sister in law pray for a low interest rate on a car ...She got it...This is one of the reasons she says god exsists.. :roll: Pray for something with real meaning see if it happens... I'd be willing to bet it wont....