Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

Well, this is probably my first post here in this forum, so I'll make it quick. I hope you find this interesting, and I'd like some feedback.

As a Muslim and libertarian, I believe that it is in the right of every person to defend himself at any cost, and that the liberty of protecting yourself with force is a God-given right to us human beings. Therefore, it is in our personal endeavors to take up arms against those who attack us and those who oppress us, from the government to any foreign force. Gun control seeks to remove the liberty of possessing needed defense, and it is in our interest to hold private ownership and responsibility with such means.

Now for a little insight into Islamic history. During the Islamic Caliphates, people were free to purchase arms in the market (in the form of swords, daggers, arrows, etc.), and keep them with them wherever they go. Yet during those times, there was relatively little conflict and strife: people of all religions and races thrived under the Islamic Empire in a peaceful, liberal society... and no arms were taken into ownership by the ruling Caliphate. Crime and murder rates during those times were low, and if there was any conflict, it was between the Islamic Empire's forces (Muslims, Christians and Jews) and other outside invaders. Thanks to the lack of arms control, even the commoner in the streets was able to defend his land against any impending attack.

Also, if you take a look at the Koran and other Islamic teachings, you will find that it has many similarities to the U.S. Constitution, and thus the 2nd amendment. Thanks to the God-given liberty of self-defense and the right to bear whatever possessions we can use to defend ourselves against those who oppress us and beleaguer us. Gun control should be stopped, because it is taking this God-given right from our hands.

And with that, I'd like to say four words:
Molon Labe! Allahu Akbar!

[alclarkey]

Wow 9000 posts and this is your first in the Gun Forum?!? Anyways good post, and I hope you stick around.

[thintheherd]

Same here!

But please... Oh pleeeaase. Avoid getting s*cked into another of the pointless arguments raised by our resident do-gooder Lucky Luke.

Circles are his specialty. :lol:

[Saracen]

alclarkey wrote: Wow 9000 posts and this is your first in the Gun Forum?!? Anyways good post, and I hope you stick around.

Actually, not really my first post. My first post here in the gun forum, I believe, was awhile back, when OneZero and PGA were debating with you-know-who. I just cheered them on, though. Anyways, thanks for the complement. Hopefully, I'll be popping in and helping you guys out against those fascist-socialist-pinko-commie authoritarian dudes and dudettes who just can't wait to see guns in their hands and their hands alone.

[Saracen]

thintheherd wrote: Same here!

But please... Oh pleeeaase. Avoid getting s*cked into another of the pointless arguments raised by our resident do-gooder Lucky Luke.

Circles are his specialty. :lol:

Thanks, and don't you worry. I'll be popping in once in a while to support you guys. It is our duty to show these guys that gun control just isn't cool.

[Wolverine]

Good post, and welcome to the Lions Den. :)

[Saracen]

Wolverine wrote: Good post, and welcome to the Lions Den. :)

Thanks. I'll just be passing by once in a while.

[Lucky Luke]

Saracen wrote: thintheherd wrote: Same here!

But please... Oh pleeeaase. Avoid getting s*cked into another of the pointless arguments raised by our resident do-gooder Lucky Luke.

Circles are his specialty. :lol:

Thanks, and don't you worry. I'll be popping in once in a while to support you guys. It is our duty to show these guys that gun control just isn't cool.

Let me summarised your arguments, your god gave you the right to be armed the way you want whenever and wherever you want to and gun control laws aren't cool enough for you.

You have very powerful arguments here Saracen, how could I attack the wisdom of any god and who would dare to be uncool nowadays? Let's forget about the insane American murder rate and let's all be cool and religious!

:-D
:-D

[Saracen]

Lucky Luke wrote: Saracen wrote: thintheherd wrote: Same here!

But please... Oh pleeeaase. Avoid getting s*cked into another of the pointless arguments raised by our resident do-gooder Lucky Luke.

Circles are his specialty. :lol:

Thanks, and don't you worry. I'll be popping in once in a while to support you guys. It is our duty to show these guys that gun control just isn't cool.

Let me summarised your arguments, your god gave you the right to be armed the way you want whenever and wherever you want to and gun control laws aren't cool enough for you.

Gun control is in itself a threat not only to the liberty of the people, but to their safety. The power of a gun gives one great responsibility. Moreover, my God is their God (unless my allies here are athiests) and I believe that whatever rights are God-given are also inane and human rights.

Quote: You have very powerful arguments here Saracen, how could I attack the wisdom of any god and who would dare to be uncool nowadays? Let's forget about the insane American murder rate and let's all be cool and religious!

That's not my point, Lucky. American murder rates are not due to possession of guns, but also due to the use of other weapons like knives and even through conventional measures like physical combat. Seriously, Lucky, you can't be serious in depriving people of the very things they need to defend themselves.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Saracen wrote: Moreover, my God is their God (unless my allies here are athiests) and I believe that whatever rights are God-given are also innate and human rights.

I reckon I'm the only non-Abrahamite who posts heavily about keeping our gun rights-- unless there's a couple full-blown Objectivists around here-- but my gods ain't in the business of handing out rights.

They teach us to be strong, so that we can demand and guarantee our own rights. Of course, part of that is telling us not to surrender our arms to tyrants.

Saracen wrote: Seriously, Lucky, you can't be serious in depriving people of the very things they need to defend themselves.

I try not to be as snarky as the others when dealing with Luke, but he really does seem to have no concept of self-defense-- or he seems to believe that only criminals will own and use legal weaponry.

I think he is a product of the overall trend in Western society of teaching people that they are not strong enough or responsible enough to take care of themselves. See a lot of it on this side of the pond, too-- and it sickens me.

[Lucky Luke]

Saracen wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Saracen wrote: thintheherd wrote: Same here!

But please... Oh pleeeaase. Avoid getting s*cked into another of the pointless arguments raised by our resident do-gooder Lucky Luke.

Circles are his specialty. :lol:

Thanks, and don't you worry. I'll be popping in once in a while to support you guys. It is our duty to show these guys that gun control just isn't cool.

Let me summarised your arguments, your god gave you the right to be armed the way you want whenever and wherever you want to and gun control laws aren't cool enough for you.

Gun control is in itself a threat not only to the liberty of the people, but to their safety. The power of a gun gives one great responsibility. Moreover, my God is their God (unless my allies here are athiests) and I believe that whatever rights are God-given are also inane and human rights.

Quote: You have very powerful arguments here Saracen, how could I attack the wisdom of any god and who would dare to be uncool nowadays? Let's forget about the insane American murder rate and let's all be cool and religious!

That's not my point, Lucky. American murder rates are not due to possession of guns, but also due to the use of other weapons like knives and even through conventional measures like physical combat. Seriously, Lucky, you can't be serious in depriving people of the very things they need to defend themselves.

I don't know of any gods telling us that we should have the right to own and use any firearm nor that I know of any god claiming that gun control laws are the answer to our problem. If you agree Saracen, let's keep god out of gun control whoever god is.

If the American insane murder rate has nothing to do with guns why 70% of murders are committed with a gun in the US? Are American born killers Saracen or is it something else? You said it America is at peace with itself why are they killing each other by this insane rate?

People do believe that guns are protecting their homes and yet America is the proof that guns do not do that in modern western democratic countries today.

Now you are claiming that American gun control laws are a threat to the safety of the people, proof it Saracen!
:-D
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[Lucky Luke]

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Saracen wrote: Moreover, my God is their God (unless my allies here are athiests) and I believe that whatever rights are God-given are also innate and human rights.

I reckon I'm the only non-Abrahamite who posts heavily about keeping our gun rights-- unless there's a couple full-blown Objectivists around here-- but my gods ain't in the business of handing out rights.

They teach us to be strong, so that we can demand and guarantee our own rights. Of course, part of that is telling us not to surrender our arms to tyrants.

Saracen wrote: Seriously, Lucky, you can't be serious in depriving people of the very things they need to defend themselves.

I try not to be as snarky as the others when dealing with Luke, but he really does seem to have no concept of self-defense-- or he seems to believe that only criminals will own and use legal weaponry.

I think he is a product of the overall trend in Western society of teaching people that they are not strong enough or responsible enough to take care of themselves. See a lot of it on this side of the pond, too-- and it sickens me.

Any self defence system has to be evaluated Korimyr the Rat and revaluated regularly, can we agree on this?

Then we can evaluate how many lives guns are saving in America and how many rapes, assaults and property crimes are avoided because American people have guns for protection.

We can either do our evaluation by comparing crime rates between America and other western democratic countries, by comparing different states in America with different laws and what happened when these laws were activated or again you could choose to compare American cities where most of people live and where most of these crimes happen.

Ready when you are Korimyr the Rat. Let's take god, beliefs and emotion out of the debate and let's concentrate on facts.
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[TNBiologist]

Saracen, You made some good points. These are the same points that many of use on this forum argue. Good luck with your debate with he who does not listen to reason.

[Saracen]

Lucky Luke wrote: I don't know of any gods telling us that we should have the right to own and use any firearm nor that I know of any god claiming that gun control laws are the answer to our problem. If you agree Saracen, let's keep god out of gun control whoever god is.

Well, I still stand that it is a humane right to bear arms and stay safe, if you want to look at it from a non-religious point of view.

Lucky Luke wrote: If the American insane murder rate has nothing to do with guns why 70% of murders are committed with a gun in the US? Are American born killers Saracen or is it something else? You said it America is at peace with itself why are they killing each other by this insane rate?

America is a free nation, and has a population of over 200 million. Every society has its share of psychopaths, and it is clearly obvious that the larger the population, the larger the share of psychopaths. However, there is no insane rate of murder the way you look at it.

Lucky Luke wrote: People do believe that guns are protecting their homes and yet America is the proof that guns do not do that in modern western democratic countries today.

Now you are claiming that American gun control laws are a threat to the safety of the people, proof it Saracen!

I'll give you several names: Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Jozef Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. They practiced strict gun control in that only certain citizens were allowed to possess them. Take Hitler. The Jews of Germany were given less rights, and look where it lead them: Holocaust. If the same thing were to happen in the U.S., where we are seeing a rapid move towards a police state, we would see the same thing happen to the American people. Hitler was able to justify the Holocaust. Something similar might happen in America should things get ugly.

[milo1047]

Welcome aboard, Saracen! Good luck with Luke...he never seems to shut up.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Maybe he's just arguing so much because he wants someone to feel sorry for him and get him that Red Ryder BB gun he so wanted when we was a kid!

[OneZero]

:lol: :lol:

[alclarkey]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Maybe he's just arguing so much because he wants someone to feel sorry for him and get him that Red Ryder BB gun he so wanted when we was a kid!


:rotf:

[Wolverine]

:lol: Who knows, that might even be correct. :lol:

[Lucky Luke]

Saracen wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: I don't know of any gods telling us that we should have the right to own and use any firearm nor that I know of any god claiming that gun control laws are the answer to our problem. If you agree Saracen, let's keep god out of gun control whoever god is.

Well, I still stand that it is a humane right to bear arms and stay safe, if you want to look at it from a non-religious point of view.

Lucky Luke wrote: If the American insane murder rate has nothing to do with guns why 70% of murders are committed with a gun in the US? Are American born killers Saracen or is it something else? You said it America is at peace with itself why are they killing each other by this insane rate?

America is a free nation, and has a population of over 200 million. Every society has its share of psychopaths, and it is clearly obvious that the larger the population, the larger the share of psychopaths. However, there is no insane rate of murder the way you look at it.

Lucky Luke wrote: People do believe that guns are protecting their homes and yet America is the proof that guns do not do that in modern western democratic countries today.

Now you are claiming that American gun control laws are a threat to the safety of the people, proof it Saracen!

I'll give you several names: Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Jozef Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. They practiced strict gun control in that only certain citizens were allowed to possess them. Take Hitler. The Jews of Germany were given less rights, and look where it lead them: Holocaust. If the same thing were to happen in the U.S., where we are seeing a rapid move towards a police state, we would see the same thing happen to the American people. Hitler was able to justify the Holocaust. Something similar might happen in America should things get ugly.

A human right? from which bill?

The insane rate is a rate per 100,000 people Saracen, size doesn't matter in crime rates, population per sq. mile does but America is an empty country compared to most western democratic countries and yet people are killing each other two to three times the rate that others, not only this but with firearms 70% of the time, a percentage not matched anywhere else in the world I believe.

Now why would America have a larger share of psychopaths than other similar modern and wealthy countries? Is it the water? Or may be American psychopaths are given firearms to play with?

When I ask you to prove that American gun control laws are a threat to the safety of the people, you are going on about the history of Europe. We could discuss the raise of Hitler American gun in hand if you wish but this debate would belong to the history forum.

Let's not talk about a distant past somewhere else in the world or of some apocalyptic vision of the future. Let's talk about the present, the present gun control laws in America and what happened when and where they were toughened up and where and when they were relaxed.

No emotion, no stories, no ifs, no buts, no wild fear of the future, just facts Saracen, I am ready when you are.

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