Political Crossfire Forums

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: Tell me Joe, how is a baby born Christian?
It is baptized.

Ah, but a child is baptized after it is born, therefore the embryos are not Christian. According to your own logic, the embryos that are aborted are not Christian at all, and that entire line of argument is false.

:owned:

[joe christian]

LostSoul3412 wrote: That's pretty arrogant to think that this issue applies only to Christians... This is an issue of choice for all Americans, regardless of race or creed. You cannot confine it to the Christian faith.
As a married Christian father, I am only representing and arguing from a married Christian father's POV, since that is all I am genuinely capable of truly representing. I can't speak for anyone else but myself and other married Christian fathers.
Quote: Also, you cannot assert that all children baptized are going to be actual Christians. People's beliefs change, and I personally believe that baptizing someone into a church while they are unable to express consent does not count an inducting them into a faith. No one is born into any religion, people are born without any concept of religion what so ever, and their beliefs start to develop as their life goes on.
As much as you are entitled to your own beliefs about such religious matters, others are also entitled to immerse their new-borns into whatever family faith they are born into, and to treat their children as gifts from God to be raised as Godly children. The justification for this is that when Eve first conceived, she said she had gotten a man from the Lord. (Gen 4:1)

joe christian wrote: Can't blame Christian fathers for that bloody carnage since no one even informed us or bothered to get our consent.
Quote: So... your entire group was left out of the loop while your wives were having abortions done on your potential children?
Yes, Christian men in general have not been consulted or invited to participate in the secular abortion debate, and have been rather excluded from any participation in the actual decision making at both government and clinical levels. The main thing we have going in our favor at this time is that we are not culpable or guilty of having initiated the abortion holocaust and cannot really be blamed for any part of it, since Christian fathers have actually been in the forefront of abortion resistance.

Quote: It may not be you specifically, but Christians certainly are having abortions done, just like the other 1.3 million individuals, or so you assert.
While it is true that 75-80% of US abortions are being done on Christian women, none of the abortions are being performed by any Christian doctors. This also exonerates the general Christian population from having initiated, planned or devised such a holocaust. Most Christian men, even if not fathers themselves, can regard the abortion movement as being inpired by atheists and secularist alone.

[joe christian]

LostSoul3412 wrote: joe christian wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: Tell me Joe, how is a baby born Christian?
It is baptized.

Ah, but a child is baptized after it is born, therefore the embryos are not Christian. According to your own logic, the embryos that are aborted are not Christian at all, and that entire line of argument is false.
:owned:
Actually, by the logic we are both employing here, which accepts the premise of post-birth baptism establishing the Christian identity of a child, pre-natal baptism of a fetus, embryo, zygote or fertilized egg, will also establish the Christian identity and character of the natural biological consequences of the original Christian procreative act engaged in by the two Christian partners whose union has formed one flesh and bond between them.

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: As much as you are entitled to your own beliefs about such religious matters, others are also entitled to immerse their new-borns into whatever family faith they are born into, and to treat their children as gifts from God to be raised as Godly children. The justification for this is that when Eve first conceived, she said she had gotten a man from the Lord. (Gen 4:1)

The Bible does not qualify as factual evidence. That may be your personal view, and you are entitled to it, but you cannot proclaim it as truth. Plus, it is possible to determine the gender of an embryo while it is still within the mother's womb, so determining gender does not equal life.

joe christian wrote: Yes, Christian men in general have not been consulted or invited to participate in the secular abortion debate, and have been rather excluded from any participation in the actual decision making at both government and clinical levels. The main thing we have going in our favor at this time is that we are not culpable or guilty of having initiated the abortion holocaust and cannot really be blamed for any part of it, since Christian fathers have actually been in the forefront of abortion resistance.

Seeing as how 89.1% of the current Congress follows some form of Christianity (source:www.adherents.com/adh_congress.html), it is hard to say that Christians have no say in governmental decision. Also seeing as how consent must be given from the parents to perform an abortion, it is also hard to say that Christian fathers have no say on the clinical level. If that is true that Christian fathers are excluded from the clinical decision, then you may want to communicate with your wife more...

joe christian wrote: While it is true that 75-80% of US abortions are being done on Christian women, none of the abortions are being performed by any Christian doctors. This also exonerates the general Christian population from having initiated, planned or devised such a holocaust. Most Christian men, even if not fathers themselves, can regard the abortion movement as being inpired by atheists and secularist alone.

"While it is true that 75-80% of US abortions are being done on Christian women..." You just refuted your claims that "No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists."

Now that we have an understand that Christian women are also having abortions done, and now that most of your argument is proven false, that brings us to the religion of doctors. It is, again, arrogant and ignorant to believe that absolutely no abortions are done by Christian doctors. Unless you can prove otherwise, that claim is false.

There is no exoneration because there is no crime, and there is no holocaust. There is only the individual expressing her right to her own body.

Also, unless you can actually prove that Christian fathers are leading the pro-life camp, then that claim is false. And even if that claim was true, it wouldn't help your argument. The faith of the opposition has no bearing on the quality of their argument.

(Note: All edits were attempts to get the top quote box to work correctly. Since I've been unsuccessful in my attempts to fix it, I've decided to say "screw it", and carry on the debate)

(More Note: Nevermind, found the problem! 8:) )

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: Actually, by the logic we are both employing here, which accepts the premise of post-birth baptism establishing the Christian identity of a child, pre-natal baptism of a fetus, embryo, zygote or fertilized egg, will also establish the Christian identity and character of the natural biological consequences of the original Christian procreative act engaged in by the two Christian partners whose union has formed one flesh and bond between them.

I was not employing any of my personal logic, I was only refuting yours. Even if a child is baptized, it does not make them Christian. External actions committed when the individual has no choice does not bind them to a certain creed. Faith is determined by what is on the inside.

Also, religion does not transmit from parent to child. It is not a biological factor, it is a personal one. You cannot assume that if two Christian parents have a child, that child will be genetically Christian. Religion is not a genetic construct, and it does not automatically pass from parent to child. If that were true, then I would be a devout Catholic. Since I am not, and since I harbor my own religion different from my parents, that line of reasoning is also false.

:owned:... again.

[joe christian]

Gilbert1908 wrote: joe christian wrote: Atheistic and secular US abortionists don't exactly give American fathers and their pre-natal babies much choice either.

Face it. Modern American abortionists are worse than nazis. They've butchered, slaughtered and killed 46 million American babies since 1970, and buried them in black plastic bags in mass unmarked garbage dumps.

So how is America any different than the Third Reich other than we allow Jewish doctors to kill Christian babies?

As a pro life person, I am offended by your implication and your demeanor.
What "implication" and "demeanor" do you specifically find "offensive?"

Quote: You are kidding yourself if you don't believe that Christians are not getting abortions.
You are wasting our time if you post such assertions without having read the posts in the thread which state that 75-80% of US abortions are obtained by so-called Christian women.

Quote: And frankly you insult my intelligence and those of anyone by using a clearly anti-semitic remark.
It might prove intelligent on your part to point out where anyone has "used a clearly anti-Semitic remark."

Quote: And I for one want to make it clear you do not represent my position in favor of reducing or eliminating abortions and I do not believe you are representative of the majority who share such sentiments.
Thank you for sharing your sentiments with us. Would you mind sharing with the rest of us just whose POV you represent?

Are you a Christian Father? Were you ever a Christian fetus?

[joe christian]

LostSoul3412 wrote: joe christian wrote: Actually, by the logic we are both employing here, which accepts the premise of post-birth baptism establishing the Christian identity of a child, pre-natal baptism of a fetus, embryo, zygote or fertilized egg, will also establish the Christian identity and character of the natural biological consequences of the original Christian procreative act engaged in by the two Christian partners whose union has formed one flesh and bond between them.

I was not employing any of my personal logic, I was only refuting yours. Even if a child is baptized, it does not make them Christian.
That's obviously a matter of religious belief, since most infants baptized into the Christian faith remain Christians till they die.

Quote: Also, religion does not transmit from parent to child. It is not a biological factor, it is a personal one. You cannot assume that if two Christian parents have a child, that child will be genetically Christian. Religion is not a genetic construct, and it does not automatically pass from parent to child. If that were true, then I would be a devout Catholic. Since I am not, and since I harbor my own religion different from my parents, that line of reasoning is also false.
You are an exception to the rule, and can only speak for yourself, since most baptized Catholics remain Catholics all of their lives.

Quote: :owned:... again.
Slavery is over.

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: It might prove intelligent on your part to point out where anyone has "used a clearly anti-Semitic remark."

In your own words...

joe christian wrote: So how is America any different than the Third Reich other than we allow Jewish doctors to kill Christian babies?

Racism, anti-Semitism, and discrimination.

joe christian wrote: No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Discrimination.

joe christian wrote: ...the abortion holocaust of 46 million American babies by secular atheists and feminists.

More discrimination.

joe christian wrote: All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Even more discrimination.

joe christian wrote: Old nazis never die. They just resurface as social abortionists.

Still more discrimination.

joe christian wrote: Atheistic and secular US abortionists don't exactly give American fathers and their pre-natal babies much choice either.

Still going strong...

joe christian wrote: Modern American abortionists are worse than nazis. They've butchered, slaughtered and killed 46 million American babies since 1970, and buried them in black plastic bags in mass unmarked garbage dumps.

And those are only the examples taken from this thread...

See www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52354, and www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51207 for more discriminating comments!

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: That's obviously a matter of religious belief, since most infants baptized into the Christian faith remain Christians till they die.

But again, you cite the action of baptism, instead of the child's actual belief. Actions do not determine faith, and unless you can prove that "most infants baptized into the Christian faith remain Christians till they die", that argument is still false.

joe christian wrote: You are an exception to the rule, and can only speak for yourself, since most baptized Catholics remain Catholics all of their lives.

Of course I can only speak for myself, which is what I am doing and advocating. You are saying that all potential children conceived by Christian parents are going to be Christian. As I said before, unless you can prove that "most baptized Catholics remain Catholics all of their lives", that argument is false. And, unless you can prove that religion is a biological factor transmitted through conception, that argument is still false, and has no bearing.

joe christian wrote: Slavery is over.

But your false arguments aren't.

:owned:, for the third time in a row.

[Akajjred]

anonymous4reasons wrote: Look at history, abortion has been taken place for thousands of years, it is just a known fact, and with it legal that means women can go into safe enviroments with proper equipment and medicines or in a back room with no medicine and a dirty knife. I hate the fact of loosing a beating heart, and I think abortion should be the last choice, but just because you make something illegal doesn't mean you stop it, you make it worse and unsafe.

Yep. If I were ever in a position where I got a girl pregnant and we couldn't raise the baby I would encourage her not to get the abortion, but would leave the decision up to her. Why should I tell her what to do when it affects her so much more? Why should I tell any other woman they shouldn't get an abortion? Why is that my responsibility? I don't want people telling me how to live my life, and I don't want to tell someone else how to live theirs. Simple as that. That argument works for abortion, gay marriage, drugs (assuming they don't harm other people), and almost anything else that people want to outlaw.

[LostSoul3412]

Akajjred wrote: Yep. If I were ever in a position where I got a girl pregnant and we couldn't raise the baby I would encourage her not to get the abortion, but would leave the decision up to her. Why should I tell her what to do when it affects her so much more? Why should I tell any other woman they shouldn't get an abortion? Why is that my responsibility? I don't want people telling me how to live my life, and I don't want to tell someone else how to live theirs. Simple as that. That argument works for abortion, gay marriage, drugs (assuming they don't harm other people), and almost anything else that people want to outlaw.

100% agreed. Individual choice of other is more important than our own personal morals.

[joe christian]

LostSoul3412 wrote: joe christian wrote: As much as you are entitled to your own beliefs about such religious matters, others are also entitled to immerse their new-borns into whatever family faith they are born into, and to treat their children as gifts from God to be raised as Godly children. The justification for this is that when Eve first conceived, she said she had gotten a man from the Lord. (Gen 4:1)

The Bible does not qualify as factual evidence. That may be your personal view, and you are entitled to it, but you cannot proclaim it as truth.
Anyone can proclaim the Bible as factual, historical and religious evidence of the truth. Who are you to proclaim otherwise?

Write on the blackboard 99 times: The Bible is factual evidence and truth.

Quote: Plus, it is possible to determine the gender of an embryo while it is still within the mother's womb, so determining gender does not equal life.
That's an oxymoron since observation of embryonic gender equals observation of embryonic human life.

joe christian wrote: Yes, Christian men in general have not been consulted or invited to participate in the secular abortion debate, and have been rather excluded from any participation in the actual decision making at both government and clinical levels. The main thing we have going in our favor at this time is that we are not culpable or guilty of having initiated the abortion holocaust and cannot really be blamed for any part of it, since Christian fathers have actually been in the forefront of abortion resistance.

Quote: Seeing as how 89.1% of the current Congress follows some form of Christianity, it is hard to say that Christians have no say in governmental decision.
Rather is it easy to see that Christians in Congress can't violate the First Amendment unless they amend it.

Quote: Also seeing as how consent must be given from the parents to perform an abortion, it is also hard to say that Christian fathers have no say on the clinical level.
You just seem to have some difficulty seeing anything since there are no cases of any Christian fathers being involved in abortion disputes at the clinical level. Fathers are shut out of the abortion decision by the absense of any law requiring their informed consent.

joe christian wrote: While it is true that 75-80% of US abortions are being done on Christian women, none of the abortions are being performed by any Christian doctors. This also exonerates the general Christian population from having initiated, planned or devised such a holocaust. Most Christian men, even if not fathers themselves, can regard the abortion movement as being inpired by atheists and secularist alone.

Quote: "While it is true that 75-80% of US abortions are being done on Christian women..." You just refuted your claims that "No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists."
The Christian women don't perform the abortions. The abortions are performed on them by non-Christian atheists and secularists.

Quote: Now that we have an understand that Christian women are also having abortions done, and now that most of your argument is proven false, that brings us to the religion of doctors. It is, again, arrogant and ignorant to believe that absolutely no abortions are done by Christian doctors. Unless you can prove otherwise, that claim is false.
Abortion, by definition is a non-Christian activity, unless performed in order to save the life of the mother because of pre-natal complications.

It is not necessary to prove an assumption in religion if there is no evidence to the contrary.

Quote: There is no exoneration because there is no crime, and there is no holocaust.
You are obviously in a state of criminal denial since the butchery and slaughter of 46 million American Babies constitutes not only a crime against humanity, but an American Holocaust which far exceeds anything the Third Reich ever anticipated.

Quote: There is only the individual expressing her right to her own body.
No one has the right to destroy another person's baby without their fully informed consent.

Quote: Also, unless you can actually prove that Christian fathers are leading the pro-life camp, then that claim is false.
Not at all. Your logic is skewed since it is safe to assume the obvious.

Quote: And even if that claim was true, it wouldn't help your argument. The faith of the opposition has no bearing on the quality of their argument.
My, how you hate the faith of others but have such faith in your own unsubstantiated opinions.

[joe christian]

LostSoul3412 wrote: joe christian wrote: That's obviously a matter of religious belief, since most infants baptized into the Christian faith remain Christians till they die.

But again, you cite the action of baptism, instead of the child's actual belief. Actions do not determine faith, and unless you can prove that "most infants baptized into the Christian faith remain Christians till they die", that argument is still false.
85% of the US population is still as Christian as it was 2 or 300 years ago. Proof enough.

joe christian wrote: You are an exception to the rule, and can only speak for yourself, since most baptized Catholics remain Catholics all of their lives.

Quote: You are saying that all potential children conceived by Christian parents are going to be Christian.
Now you are lying since I obviously said "most."

Quote: As I said before, unless you can prove that "most baptized Catholics remain Catholics all of their lives", that argument is false. And, unless you can prove that religion is a biological factor transmitted through conception, that argument is still false, and has no bearing.
Religion is a metaphysical factor transmitted through birth. Nothing to do with biology at all.

joe christian wrote: Slavery is over.

Quote: But your false arguments aren't.

:owned:, for the third time in a row.

Hmmm. You really are into mental bondage and slavery, aren't you?

[joe christian]

[quote="LostSoul3412"] joe christian wrote: It might prove intelligent on your part to point out where anyone has "used a clearly anti-Semitic remark."

Quote: In your own words...

joe christian wrote: So how is America any different than the Third Reich other than we allow Jewish doctors to kill Christian babies?

Quote: Racism, anti-Semitism, and discrimination.

Where is the racism, anti-Semitism and discrimination other than in your mind?

joe christian wrote: No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: Discrimination.

Do you know what discrimination means?

joe christian wrote: ...the abortion holocaust of 46 million American babies by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: More discrimination.
Where?

joe christian wrote: All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: Even more discrimination.
So much discrimination? Are you sure you are not just imagining things?

joe christian wrote: Old nazis never die. They just resurface as social abortionists.

Quote: Still more discrimination.
How can you tell? What criteria do you use to scientifically determine and prove discrimination?

joe christian wrote: Atheistic and secular US abortionists don't exactly give American fathers and their pre-natal babies much choice either.

Quote: Still going strong...

joe christian wrote: Modern American abortionists are worse than nazis. They've butchered, slaughtered and killed 46 million American babies since 1970, and buried them in black plastic bags in mass unmarked garbage dumps.

Quote: And those are only the examples taken from this thread...

Examples of what, Lost Soul? What on earth are you babbling on about?

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: Anyone can proclaim the Bible as factual, historical and religious evidence of the truth. Who are you to proclaim otherwise?

Write on the blackboard 99 times: The Bible is factual evidence and truth.

I'm a non-christian. In your mind, I am a second-class citizen who doesn't see the light in Christ. The Bible is not a factual claim, the Bible is a religious text that people believe in without scientific backing. That is what faith is after all. Belief without proof. I am an individual with my own beliefs. If I don't intemperate the Bible as truth, then it isn't truth. Find a different source.

And as to your command in an attempt to subjugate me to your "superior Christian father" will... Make me. You can't tell me what to do anymore than the government legitimately can.

joe christian wrote: That's an oxymoron since observation of embryonic gender equals observation of embryonic human life.

No it doesn't. It is the observation of the potential child's gender. An embryo is the potential to become the actual like the egg to the chicken. Just because you can determine what the gender of the child will be at birth, does not mean that the child is alive as an embryo.

joe christian wrote: Rather is it easy to see that Christians in Congress can't violate the First Amendment unless they amend it.

Why is it necessary for Congress to violate the First Amendment in the first place?

joe christian wrote: You just seem to have some difficulty seeing anything since there are no cases of any Christian fathers being involved in abortion disputes at the clinical level. Fathers are shut out of the abortion decision by the absence of any law requiring their informed consent.

Evidence?

joe christian wrote: The Christian women don't perform the abortions. The abortions are performed on them by non-Christian atheists and secularists.

More discrimination without evidence...

joe christian wrote: Abortion, by definition is a non-Christian activity, unless performed in order to save the life of the mother because of pre-natal complications.

1) Evidence?

2)That does not mean that Christians are not having them performed on them. And if they are having them done, that would make them not Christian by your logic, correct? And if that is the case then that would mean that even if they were baptized as children, that baptism does not control their internal religion. Which means that your argument about "Christian babies" is proven false by your own logic... again.

joe christian wrote: It is not necessary to prove an assumption in religion if there is no evidence to the contrary.

Of course there is! External actions do not control the internal religion. So, in order to prove religion you would have to be inside the heart of the other person. And since that cannot be done, there is no way to prove religion. Just another hole in your false logic.

joe christian wrote: You are obviously in a state of criminal denial since the butchery and slaughter of 46 million American Babies constitutes not only a crime against humanity, but an American Holocaust which far exceeds anything the Third Reich ever anticipated.

The Third Reich did not provide choice to the Jews before they were massacred. Here, the mother has a choice to not have a child. Choice is the differing factor, and the ability to choose is part of what equates to freedom.

joe christian wrote: No one has the right to destroy another person's baby without their fully informed consent.

The mothers are choosing to have an abortion done. The doctor is not mandating abortions, or doing them without the mother's consent. I would hope that couples have enough communication between the two to talk about issues like this, but if there isn't that communication, then it isn't really a relationship at all. What you do with your wife is your own business, but don't cry about not having a say over your own child.

joe christian wrote: Not at all. Your logic is skewed since it is safe to assume the obvious.

The only obvious I see is that you cannot find evidence to back your claims.

joe christian wrote: My, how you hate the faith of others but have such faith in your own unsubstantiated opinions.

1) You're really in no position to talk about "hating the faith of others".

2) I show respect for every faith, maybe you should try it.

3) I was saying that the argument presented is not dependent on their faith. They are two completely unrelated issues, therefore they are not fortified or harmed by the debater's faith.

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: 85% of the US population is still as Christian as it was 2 or 300 years ago. Proof enough.

Evidence for that other than your evidence-free claim?

joe christian wrote: Now you are lying since I obviously said "most."

You're avoiding the issue. Can you prove it?

joe christian wrote: Religion is a metaphysical factor transmitted through birth. Nothing to do with biology at all.

How is religion transmitted through birth when (from a Christian stance) God gave humanity the power of free will. Wouldn't that mean that people have the ability to decide their own religion for themselves, and not have their mindset dependent on their parents?

joe christian wrote: Hmmm. You really are into mental bondage and slavery, aren't you?

Only as much as you're into false arguments.

:owned:, 4 and 0 on my part.

[LostSoul3412]

joe christian wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: joe christian wrote: It might prove intelligent on your part to point out where anyone has "used a clearly anti-Semitic remark."

Quote: In your own words...

joe christian wrote: So how is America any different than the Third Reich other than we allow Jewish doctors to kill Christian babies?

Quote: Racism, anti-Semitism, and discrimination.

Where is the racism, anti-Semitism and discrimination other than in your mind?

joe christian wrote: Jewish doctors to kill Christian babies

joe christian wrote: joe christian wrote: No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: Discrimination.

Do you know what discrimination means?

joe christian wrote: ...the abortion holocaust of 46 million American babies by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: More discrimination.
Where?

joe christian wrote: All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: Even more discrimination.
So much discrimination? Are you sure you are not just imagining things?

joe christian wrote: Old nazis never die. They just resurface as social abortionists.

Quote: Still more discrimination.
How can you tell? What criteria do you use to scientifically determine and prove discrimination?

Descrimination: "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners" (www.dictionary.com)

By labeling Atheists and Feminists as.. well, everything you said they are, you are discriminating against those two groups.

And believe me, I wish I was imagining things... I thought hate like this ended at Nuremburg.

joe christian wrote: Examples of what, Lost Soul? What on earth are you babbling on about?

Your uncontrolled hate, discrimination, lack of respect, lack of acceptence, racism, anti-Semitism, and basic everything else that labels you as a bad Christian.

[joe christian]

[quote="LostSoul3412"] joe christian wrote: No Christians are performing any abortions of babies to the best of our knowledge. All abortions in the US are performed by secular atheists and feminists.

Quote: Saying that all abortions in the United States are done by people of two certain groups only shows your own ignorance, and discrimination. Abortions are done on all mothers of all different backgrounds, including Christians. In fact, if 85% of all children born (or so you say) are Christian, that would mean that most of the abortions are being done on Christians.
Yes, we are agree that most of the abortions are being done on Christian women since they constitute 85% of the US population. You seem to confuse the minority of atheists, secularists and feminists who are doing the abortions with the majority of Christian ladies on whom they are doing them, though. Isn't that a little like calling the rape victim the rapist?

Quote: Regardless of the creed of the mother, it is people asserting their right to their own body.
Abortion is also a very lucrative profession though, especially for those doctors who have no religious values or any other medical training in the area of healing rather than killing.

Quote: First, it is not killing, it is stopping a potential life from becoming an actual life. Much like an egg to a chicken. An egg is not yet a chicken, but rather the potential to become a chicken.
I see you are an astute student of a great variety of biological forms of life and have learned to compare the various stages of human life to the lives of chickens and chicken eggs.

Quote: Second, it is not only Christian embryos. In fact, embryos don't even have a religion because they can't even think!
Yes, but if the human embryos manage to survive the abortionist's attempts to kill it, a fetus may develop which in turn could very possibly become a spanking new Christian baby, right?

Quote: Just because the mother follow's a certain religion does not mean that the child, even if it is born, will follow that same religion and harbor those same beliefs. I was born into a catholic family, yet I follow my own beliefs. I do not endorse any established church, Christian or otherwise, and I believe that each individual should follow their own beliefs instead of allowing others to decide them for you.
Well, that's all very commendable seeing how your Catholic parents decided not to abort you and raised you in such a liberal fashion.

Quote: Third, do you seriously thing that having an abortion done is an act of pleasure? An abortion is done when the parents (or in your case, the mother, since you say that you have had no say in the matter) decide it to be done. I personally would never want an abortion done and any of my potential children, but I have no right to assert those morals onto other people, regardless of their religion.
Why do you give atheistic and feminist secularists the right to impose the death penalty on the pre-natal babies of married Christians without their fully informed mutual consent then? Don't you have the moral right to defend yourself from physical abuse? Don't you have the right to impose your moral values on someone who is abusing you?

Quote: Fourth, there is absolutely no connection between Nazi's and those who follow the pro-choice policy. Those who stand for choice are not trying to make abortions mandatory, they are standing for the right of the people to have control of their own body without the government dictating their health for them. Saying that those who stand for choice are Nazis only shows you ignorance towards both the Nazi party, individual choice, and liberty.

The German nazis chose to eliminate certain individuals also in the name of their own freedom to do so. Anyone who tried to interfere with their bloody agenda and save the lives of the victims was branded an enemy of the political party of the time.

Quote: You can't really qualify yourself as a father, that is something that your kids would have to attest to. It is both arrogant and ignorant to assert yourself as "wonderful".
My kids think I'm a wonderful father. Are you a father yet?

Quote: Since you've chosen to play the religious card, then I will too... In the Bible, Jesus is presented with a prostitute, which he saves from public stoning by saying "Let he without sin cast the first stone.", and then no stones are thrown. So not only did Jesus accept a prostitute, but he also proved that everyone has sin, even "wonderful Christian fathers".
Yes, but then he told the adulteress to sin no more. Abortion is like adultery and prostitution. They are all sins and need to be condemned, forgiven and then occur no more. If criminals continue with their crimes, then those of us who are not law-breakers have the right to arrest them, put them on trial and mete out due punishment.

Quote: Father is a term you have to earn. Being the biological parent of a child does not automatically make you a father, it takes love, compassion, patience, acceptance, understanding, and then love again to be considered a father (or mother). Based solely on your posts here, you don't seem compassionate, or accepting at all.
Well, you and all the other atheistic and secular abortionists out there are not my children, so I don't have to treat you as such, since the children I am interested in saving are being killed by bloody secular butchers.

Quote: Rather, you seem like an elitist that believes that Christians are superior to all other people. A "superior race" if you will, that people are born into with no choice in the matter what so ever, that don't participate in any evil, and that need to be protected so that the world can be a better place because of their existence.

Who's the Nazi now?

Since nazis are the ones who exterminate and destroy human life based on their own human reason and justification, I guess you and all the other atheistic and feminist secularists who practice and promote abortion on demand as a form of birth and population control are.

[Gilbert1908]

joe christian wrote:
What "implication" and "demeanor" do you specifically find "offensive?"

I find the "angry" Christian emphasis counter productive. Just my opinion. I don't see how it advances any real argument by constantly asserting Nazis, murderers etc.


joe christian wrote: You are wasting our time if you post such assertions without having read the posts in the thread which state that 75-80% of US abortions are obtained by so-called Christian women.

I am not sure of your point here. But I would agree with you that a person can call themselves a Christian but that does not make them one. On the other hand there are those women just like any person who go through with something due to fear, axiety, pressure or confusion and then regret it days or even years later. It belongs in the Religion section but neither you nor I determine who is an is not a Christian, and certainly statistics do not.


joe christian wrote: It might prove intelligent on your part to point out where anyone has "used a clearly anti-Semitic remark." If I misunderstood please explain what possible purpose or positive reference the "Jewish doctors, killing Christian babies" has in the context of your point.

joe christian wrote:
Thank you for sharing your sentiments with us. Would you mind sharing with the rest of us just whose POV you represent?

I represent my own POV and while I am a Catholic and if you read my arguments in this section argue constantly for the respect of human life at all stages of development, I do not see that it is either necessary nor effective to bring my religion into the discussion. The science and the facts are powerful enough and objectivly so to make my point.

And again this belongs in the religion section, but as a Christian it is certainly my right to point out those things which I believe are wrong, but not my position to condemn or hate ANY human being or group of human beings.

joe christian wrote: Are you a Christian Father? Were you ever a Christian fetus?
Your arguement on the Christianity of a fetus is interesting but I think you are taking an incorrect tact. Again this may be a subject better suited for the religion thread.

I do think that you are correct that a fetus can indeed be "Christian" but it is no more automatic or obvious that me saying I am a Christian and therefore making it so. But this kind of conversation moves into an arkane theological area which has nothing at all to do with arbortion.

The unborn regardless of the religion of thier parents are innocent and deserve our protection, I'm sure you would agree.

As far as my status in life, I simply do not discuss anything here other than my opinions. I don't see that anecdotes or my status as a father, brother etc. makes anyones comments more or less valid.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: If I misunderstood please explain what possible purpose or positive reference the "Jewish doctors, killing Christian babies" has in the context of your point.

It always comes down to the same thing with these kooks.