Political Crossfire Forums

[John Galt]

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union and many other technological improvements that have nothing to do with enviornmentalists but rather everything to do with capitalism... the amount of sun coming through to the earth has increased. Scientst attribute this to less pollutants dirtying the air. Compounding the fact we are just too enviornmentally freindly these days for our own good is the fact that the sun cycle is nearing its peak. So in sum: the sun runs in cycles and the earth has pretty dang clean air (but not as clean as before evil humans, destroyers of everything holy, like snails) which allows more sunlight (but less than before) to reach the globe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2104022,00.html

[Kindred]

John Galt wrote: Since the collapse of the Soviet Union and many other technological improvements that have nothing to do with enviornmentalists but rather everything to do with capitalism... the amount of sun coming through to the earth has increased. Scientst attribute this to less pollutants dirtying the air. Compounding the fact we are just too enviornmentally freindly these days for our own good is the fact that the sun cycle is nearing its peak. So in sum: the sun runs in cycles and the earth has pretty dang clean air (but not as clean as before evil humans, destroyers of everything holy, like snails) which allows more sunlight (but less than before) to reach the globe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2104022,00.html

Yes, the Montreal Protocal was a success. I agree.

[LetsGetReal]

So we can blame global warming on enviromentalists. Thanks here in Arizona the last thing I want is more sun..

[The Impeacher]

A.D wrote: John Galt wrote: Since the collapse of the Soviet Union and many other technological improvements that have nothing to do with enviornmentalists but rather everything to do with capitalism... the amount of sun coming through to the earth has increased. Scientst attribute this to less pollutants dirtying the air. Compounding the fact we are just too enviornmentally freindly these days for our own good is the fact that the sun cycle is nearing its peak. So in sum: the sun runs in cycles and the earth has pretty dang clean air (but not as clean as before evil humans, destroyers of everything holy, like snails) which allows more sunlight (but less than before) to reach the globe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2104022,00.html

Yes, the Montreal Protocal was a success. I agree.

should we even bother to point out to john that environmental regulation was what directed "capitalism" to get clean?

i think john is drinking again. :lol:

say john, what is capitalism doing for the rainforests and the ozone layer?

[John Galt]

It is replanting much of the rainforest so we can log it again, and making better use of the land that has been cleared.

Technology gets cleaner not from government regulation but because it does so naturally. No one wants a dirty place to live. Had it not been for government regulation screwing the little guy's ability to sue companies for violating his property (government regulates so buisnesses pay fines, not damages) the sun would be brighter on earth today. Unfourtently, with the state regulating things, we just can't be as clean as the market demands since the government is manipulating the market (if a buisness had better incentive from damages incurred by people around the buisnesss for their actions they would be cleaner. Furthermore, clean is a selling point. I have never seen anything, aside from 1-900 telephone numbers, advertised as dirty).

[The Impeacher]

i am thinking beer? :lol: j/k

John Galt wrote: It is replanting much of the rainforest so we can log it again, and making better use of the land that has been cleared.

wait, capitalism is doing that? so, capitalism is a living, breathing entity that does stuff!?

and anyways, no. rainforests are not replanted, nor do they make for good lumber. and finally, the rainforests are mostly being clear cut for agriculture and are not being replanted by capitalism, nor anyone else...

:lol:

Quote: Technology gets cleaner not from government regulation but because it does so naturally. No one wants a dirty place to live.

hahaha.

again, no. capitalism suggests that people produce things as cheaply as possible, in order to maximize profits. if we did not incentize companies to provide a baseline of environemntal regulations, many compnies would produce as much pollution as possible in order to maximze prfoits, as it is rational for them to do so.

however, i do agree that green technolgy has its own inherent value, but sadly, we cannot always afford to do what is "right."

what else is capitalism doing for the environment? i suppose that you think since capitalism is FINALLY starting to cut down on its own harmful pollution output, that this is somehow only a net benefit? i'd say its about damn time.

oh by the way, john, does the rain forest tend to produce, you know, rain? and then clouds? latent moisture in the air and soil prior to deforestation and pasturization/desertification....

what does rain and clouds have to do with sunlight? lessee, less forests, less clouds, metropolitan suburban sprawl heat island effects...

and what has capitalism done for the ozone layer john?

would not all that extra UV energy, which you like to call sunlight, cause us to warm?

what's next, are you going to suggest we pollute more in order to prevent "global climate change"?

:lol:

[John Galt]

The rain forest does not produce rain. I am in so much shock I cannot write further. Also I say that word, "desertfication," which is the UN's power-grabbing buzzword and I can't continue.

[The Impeacher]

John Galt wrote: The rain forest does not produce rain. I am in so much shock I cannot write further. Also I say that word, "desertfication," which is the UN's power-grabbing buzzword and I can't continue.

somehow, i think making this neohippie cry with laughter was not your ultimate goal... :lol:

FACTS from The Nature Conservancy wrote: Facts about the Rainforest as Part of our Global Environment and Well-being:

* Fact: Rainforests act as the world's thermostat by regulating temperatures and weather patterns.
* Fact: More than 20 percent of the world's oxygen is produced by the Amazon rainforest.
* Fact: One-fifth of the world’s fresh water is found in the Amazon Basin.
* Fact: Rainforests are critical in maintaining the Earth's limited supply of drinking and fresh water.
http://www.nature.org/rainforests/explore/facts.html

FACTS!!! :-D

possible fact: rainforests actually help fight COMMUNISM!

[John Galt]

Yeah does that say "produce rain"? No. Because that's mind boggling.

[The Impeacher]

John Galt wrote: Yeah does that say "produce rain"? No. Because that's mind boggling.

not nearly as mind boggling as saying capitalism does things naturally.

:lol:

and yes, the rainforest ACTUALLY CAUSES rain driven by sunlight - i believe the terminology is along the lines of latent moisture driven heat invection thermal lift. its not unlike the monsoons that hit the American southwest every year.

and in that same way, a desert or converted pasture land does not cause rain, as the rain water quickly runs off or is absorbed deep in to the ground. that is one of the very unique qualites of the natural rainforest john, i am stunned you dont know that. no wait, i am not stunned at all, really.

i am in no way denying the role of larger geographical and other factors...

but the very presence of the rainforest, once fully grown, does in fact, cause its own localized weather patterns.

FACT

[John Galt]

Evaporation is independent of whether or not there are trees there and rain is not "produced by the rain forest." Trees on the other hand depend on evaporation to survive, as it pulls the water through the trunk, although that is immaterial to this subject. A desert does not cause rain much the same way a forest doesnot cause rain: rain is made of water, not leaves or sand particles. Justbecause it rains alot inthe tropics (between the tropic of cancer and capricorn) has to do with the sun and the first word I used in this post, evaporation. I can't believe I had to explain where rain comes from.

As for capitalism, the second world was dirty. Very very dirty. Socialism was dirty. Why? Lack of innovation, lackof need to please customers, etc., etc. The first world on the other hand is very clean.Sure, we were dirty. We were really dirty. Was it government regulations that got us out of the industrial revolution and soot on the streets? No. It was not. It was because of innovation that fuels capitalism.I can't believe I had to tell you that first world is ridiculously clean and the first world is the first world because of capitalism (yet slowly fading due to encroachment by the second world from beyond the grave).

[The Impeacher]

:lol:

dammit man, i laughed so hard i drooled. my shirt is now dirty, thrid world style, and so i will fly to the rainforest, and wait for the rains.... those cleansing rains....


i just wanted to isolate this one, so we can both enjoy it again

Quote: rain is made of water, not leaves or sand particles.

:lol:

okay, i will give you that one.

John Galt wrote: Evaporation is independent of whether or not there are trees there and rain is not "produced by the rain forest." Trees on the other hand depend on evaporation to survive, as it pulls the water through the trunk, although that is immaterial to this subject. A desert does not cause rain much the same way a forest doesnot cause rain: rain is made of water, not leaves or sand particles. Justbecause it rains alot inthe tropics (between the tropic of cancer and capricorn) has to do with the sun and the first word I used in this post, evaporation.

nonono.

the point is the forest retains water on the surface and in the canopy, enabling evaporation. the rainforest keeps the moisture at the surface, merely by its existance. its part of why they call it a rainforest john, it rains a lot there. i understand that this may be shocking for you, seeing as to how i believe you live near the land of 10,000 lakes and at least several trees.

perhaps you would feel better if you went outside and chopped a tree down and burned it, just to compensate for any clean captialism that is occurring in your immediate vicinity? maybe throw in a used tire for sport?

Quote: I can't believe I had to explain where rain comes from.

actually, it comes from clouds. so you got that wrong. evaporation does not cause rain, condensation and cooling of the moisture laden air does.


John Galt wrote: As for capitalism, the second world was dirty. Very very dirty. Socialism was dirty. Why? Lack of innovation, lackof need to please customers, etc., etc. The first world on the other hand is very clean.Sure, we were dirty. We were really dirty. Was it government regulations that got us out of the industrial revolution and soot on the streets? No. It was not. It was because of innovation that fuels capitalism.I can't believe I had to tell you that first world is ridiculously clean and the first world is the first world because of capitalism (yet slowly fading due to encroachment by the second world from beyond the grave).

:lol:

or, we could just all live in the rainforest and wait for it to clean us, naturally. it would also not cost us anything, which is something that i know would be very confusing to you.

so just to make you feel better, i will charge each and every time that it rains, and double bill you if you actually derive any benefit from it.

thanks to the growth of desertification and "global climate change" - by which i really mean GLOBAL WARMING - i will not charge you any for the drying.

i will chalk up the drying bill as a benefit of capitalism....

[John Galt]

The Impeacher wrote: :lol:

dammit man, i laughed so hard i drooled. my shirt is now dirty, thrid world style, and so i will fly to the rainforest, and wait for the rains.... those cleansing rains....

Don't getmestarted on the third world. I was talking about the second world: socialism.


Quote: i just wanted to isolate this one, so we can both enjoy it again

Quote: rain is made of water, not leaves or sand particles.

:lol:

okay, i will give you that one.

John Galt wrote: Evaporation is independent of whether or not there are trees there and rain is not "produced by the rain forest." Trees on the other hand depend on evaporation to survive, as it pulls the water through the trunk, although that is immaterial to this subject. A desert does not cause rain much the same way a forest doesnot cause rain: rain is made of water, not leaves or sand particles. Justbecause it rains alot inthe tropics (between the tropic of cancer and capricorn) has to do with the sun and the first word I used in this post, evaporation.

nonono.

the point is the forest retains water on the surface and in the canopy, enabling evaporation. the rainforest keeps the moisture at the surface, merely by its existance. its part of why they call it a rainforest john, it rains a lot there. i understand that this may be shocking for you, seeing as to how i believe you live near the land of 10,000 lakes and at least several trees.

No water is 'retained' in the canopy. While I thought it was just a musing, perhaps my little factoid about how trees 'drink' if you will is actually germane. You see, evaporation pulls water from the roots through the tree, allowing trees to grow so dang high (water only by itself can support a column of what, 30 feet or so is it not? been a while since I was interested in barometers). And so no water is retained. Yes, I will say that the forest does keep the soil mosit, but sodoes my lawn. I drink from a well, and there is 3 trees on this property of 3 and a half acres. There will be more, for hard-cider making purposes, come this year but it's nearly all lush green lawn, trimmed to perfection with my trusty John Deere.

Quote: perhaps you would feel better if you went outside and chopped a tree down and burned it, just to compensate for any clean captialism that is occurring in your immediate vicinity? maybe throw in a used tire for sport?

Eh...already did that once this year.

Quote: Quote: I can't believe I had to explain where rain comes from.

actually, it comes from clouds. so you got that wrong. evaporation does not cause rain, condensation and cooling of the moisture laden air does.

Ho ho ho. Rain is "produced" (Your word) from evaporation. Condensation would not happen without evaporation. Evaporation is happening constantly, and every so often, after all that energy is expended in producing the rain, it rains. Point set match dear impeacher.

Rain is not produced by the rain forest.

This is true.

We can all now sleep soundly at night knowing that the world is not flat and it is indeed round.

Quote: John Galt wrote: As for capitalism, the second world was dirty. Very very dirty. Socialism was dirty. Why? Lack of innovation, lackof need to please customers, etc., etc. The first world on the other hand is very clean.Sure, we were dirty. We were really dirty. Was it government regulations that got us out of the industrial revolution and soot on the streets? No. It was not. It was because of innovation that fuels capitalism.I can't believe I had to tell you that first world is ridiculously clean and the first world is the first world because of capitalism (yet slowly fading due to encroachment by the second world from beyond the grave).

:lol:

or, we could just all live in the rainforest and wait for it to clean us, naturally. it would also not cost us anything, which is something that i know would be very confusing to you.

You can live in the rainforest, I am not stopping you.Keep a keen eye out for posion dart frogs though. Me? I'd rather clear it for something useful, like lushous greens for raising succelent beef, far away from your new nemesis, the anaconda. Plus, as an added benefit, an acre of lawn converts 2.5 times the amount of CO2 to O2! Wooo hooo!

Quote: so just to make you feel better, i will charge each and every time that it rains, and double bill you if you actually derive any benefit from it.

Yeah, what?

Quote: thanks to the growth of desertification

:evil:

Quote: and "global climate change" - by which i really mean GLOBAL WARMING - i will not charge you any for the drying.

Yeah. OK, "gloabl warming." Look, if you care so much about it, you can pay me 500 dollars a month to car pool and I'll do it. Otherwise, since you don't care enough about to put your money where your mouth is, don't even ask me to forsake a good for an evil (aka "sacrifice").

Quote: i will chalk up the drying bill as a benefit of capitalism....

Yeah again.I dunno what you are talking about. But I do know the wonders of capitalism never cesase to amaze! The list is almost as long as the perils and evils of socialism. Pretty long, I know.

[The Impeacher]

John Galt wrote:
No water is 'retained' in the canopy. While I thought it was just a musing, perhaps my little factoid about how trees 'drink' if you will is actually germane. You see, evaporation pulls water from the roots through the tree, allowing trees to grow so dang high (water only by itself can support a column of what, 30 feet or so is it not? been a while since I was interested in barometers). And so no water is retained. Yes, I will say that the forest does keep the soil mosit, but sodoes my lawn. I drink from a well, and there is 3 trees on this property of 3 and a half acres. There will be more, for hard-cider making purposes, come this year but it's nearly all lush green lawn, trimmed to perfection with my trusty John Deere.

you should use a goat, much more efficient. plus, it'll help you out in those long, lonely moments you have.

and yes, trees and plant evaporate water into the air as part of the photosyntesis process.

John Galt wrote: Quote: perhaps you would feel better if you went outside and chopped a tree down and burned it, just to compensate for any clean captialism that is occurring in your immediate vicinity? maybe throw in a used tire for sport?

Eh...already did that once this year.

Quote: Quote: I can't believe I had to explain where rain comes from.

actually, it comes from clouds. so you got that wrong. evaporation does not cause rain, condensation and cooling of the moisture laden air does.

Ho ho ho. Rain is "produced" (Your word) from evaporation. Condensation would not happen without evaporation. Evaporation is happening constantly, and every so often, after all that energy is expended in producing the rain, it rains. Point set match dear impeacher.

Rain is not produced by the rain forest.

This is true.

We can all now sleep soundly at night knowing that the world is not flat and it is indeed round.

hohoho. no!

evaporation is aka know as STEAM. in this form, water is a gas and not a solid. sorta like how you are full of gas...

rain is caused by the transition from one state of enegy to another.

water andmoisture gets hot, evaportate, rises, makes PUFFY CLOUDS, cools and then once the air mass is saturated... it

RAINS.

fact.

the larget the rain forest, the more it produces its own weather. i can't believe i just had to explain the rain cycle to you.


look at the plus side, john. now, i addtion to you being annoyed by the "Rain forest as lungs" analogy, you can get annoyed by the "Rain forest as thermostat and weather generator" analogy.

John Galt wrote: Quote: John Galt wrote: As for capitalism, the second world was dirty. Very very dirty. Socialism was dirty. Why? Lack of innovation, lackof need to please customers, etc., etc. The first world on the other hand is very clean.Sure, we were dirty. We were really dirty. Was it government regulations that got us out of the industrial revolution and soot on the streets? No. It was not. It was because of innovation that fuels capitalism.I can't believe I had to tell you that first world is ridiculously clean and the first world is the first world because of capitalism (yet slowly fading due to encroachment by the second world from beyond the grave).

:lol:

or, we could just all live in the rainforest and wait for it to clean us, naturally. it would also not cost us anything, which is something that i know would be very confusing to you.

You can live in the rainforest, I am not stopping you.Keep a keen eye out for posion dart frogs though. Me? I'd rather clear it for something useful, like lushous greens for raising succelent beef, far away from your new nemesis, the anaconda. Plus, as an added benefit, an acre of lawn converts 2.5 times the amount of CO2 to O2! Wooo hooo!

Quote: so just to make you feel better, i will charge each and every time that it rains, and double bill you if you actually derive any benefit from it.

Yeah, what?

Quote: thanks to the growth of desertification

:evil:

Quote: and "global climate change" - by which i really mean GLOBAL WARMING - i will not charge you any for the drying.

Yeah. OK, "gloabl warming." Look, if you care so much about it, you can pay me 500 dollars a month to car pool and I'll do it. Otherwise, since you don't care enough about to put your money where your mouth is, don't even ask me to forsake a good for an evil (aka "sacrifice").

Quote: i will chalk up the drying bill as a benefit of capitalism....

Yeah again.I dunno what you are talking about. But I do know the wonders of capitalism never cesase to amaze! The list is almost as long as the perils and evils of socialism. Pretty long, I know.

i dont think eco tourism and the pharma corps are gonna make a lot of profit off of cows and grass. they might make a couple of bucks off of you tooting around drunk on your john deere, yellling "WOOHOO". say, is that john deere also emitting oxygen?

say, how much co2 is that sum'b**** kicking out? ;)

[John Galt]

Eh, who cares? Not I. Inanyevent, you said that

Rain forests produced rain.

Stop changing what you said that gave me a shock, you said they produced rain.

Which is wrong.

There is no giant rain generator in the forest.

They do affect weather, but they do not "produce" it. It is driven by several different things but in the end, it's the sun and the movement of heat... jesus tapdancing christ.

[The Impeacher]

John Galt wrote: Eh, who cares? Not I. Inanyevent, you said that

Rain forests produced rain.

Stop changing what you said that gave me a shock, you said they produced rain.

Which is wrong.

if all the rainforests were replaced overnight with grass lawns and john galts on riding mowers, would it still rain as much as it does?


and i first said they tend to produce rain... as in they can.

can grass lawns and cows do that?

John Galt wrote: There is no giant rain generator in the forest.

correct, the forrest itself in teh rain generator. and is a producer of CLOUDS, as i said earlier. the dense forrst growth is like a sponge that retains water and keeps it at the surface. its not unlike the lake effect snow you have up there in the tundra.

do i need to explain CLOUDS to you john?

John Galt wrote: They do affect weather, but they do not "produce" it. It is driven by several different things but in the end, it's the sun and the movement of heat... jesus tapdancing christ.

no, they do produce it. with almost clock like regularity. the larger the forrest, the more it can produce its own micro-climate.

much as the forest is like LUNGS that cleanse the air by removing carbon and returning nitrogen to the soil, they CAUSE weather to happen.

FACT.

[The Impeacher]

just for you, john.

rainforest transpiration

[poweRob]

LetsGetReal wrote: So we can blame global warming on enviromentalists. Thanks here in Arizona the last thing I want is more sun..

Grid-tie your house with solar panels so you can sell that sunlight/energy back to the utilities and you'll curse all four days a year of rain we get here. :lol:

[connermt]

John Galt wrote: Since the collapse of the Soviet Union and many other technological improvements that have nothing to do with enviornmentalists but rather everything to do with capitalism... the amount of sun coming through to the earth has increased. Scientst attribute this to less pollutants dirtying the air. Compounding the fact we are just too enviornmentally freindly these days for our own good is the fact that the sun cycle is nearing its peak. So in sum: the sun runs in cycles and the earth has pretty dang clean air (but not as clean as before evil humans, destroyers of everything holy, like snails) which allows more sunlight (but less than before) to reach the globe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2104022,00.html

What planet are you from? Better yet, what planet are you on RIGHT NOW?
Good grief... :lol:
You are FAR out there guy..........