Political Crossfire Forums

JaReD · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 4

I Come To Send Fire

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Luke 12:51-53)

Comment
Jesus did not come to send peace, but rather fire and division among the family. So much for the idea of a pacifist Jesus and the modern concept of "family values."

Rip Up Pregnant Women

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

Comment
Throughout the Bible, God smites those who do not believe in him or those who do not follow his commands. Here we have the grotesque description of infants dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped up. Whatever rebellious nature an infant's father or mother may have had, it bears no justice to an innocent child or to an unborn fetus who could not possibly have rebelled against God, much less understood him.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16694 Location: On Earth

I don't know about your out-of-context taking of Scripture, but it seems that you have the same problem that many Islamophobes have: misrepresentation and misinterpretation of context.

When you look at this quote:

Luke wrote: "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)

Could it be that this "fire" be something else? Could it be that this "fire" might destroy the impurity in this world? You never know. What about the verses before and after the verses you mentioned? Surely they would be involved and would nullify the extreme interpretation of the verses you presented!

Either way, as a Muslim, I have come to respect Christianity and Judaism because they are akin to my religion: we are all sons of Abraham and look to living our lives worshipping God and doing what's right.

Amen.

JaReD · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 4

Here are the verses before and after

Luk 12:48" But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. "

Luk 12:49" I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? "

Luk 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! "

Luk 12:51 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: "

Luk 12:52 "For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. "

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:41 am Post subject:

Thats a single gospel, not to mention Luke Delibertaly and often used poetic langue and allagories.

Your taking it at face value and out of context, in other words you need to go back to you books and start again.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

Saracen wrote: I don't know about your out-of-context taking of Scripture, but it seems that you have the same problem that many Islamophobes have: misrepresentation and misinterpretation of context.

When you look at this quote:

Luke wrote: "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)

Could it be that this "fire" be something else? Could it be that this "fire" might destroy the impurity in this world? You never know. What about the verses before and after the verses you mentioned? Surely they would be involved and would nullify the extreme interpretation of the verses you presented!

Either way, as a Muslim, I have come to respect Christianity and Judaism because they are akin to my religion: we are all sons of Abraham and look to living our lives worshipping God and doing what's right.

Amen.
You know Saracen, you can make some really intelligently argued posts. This isn't one of them. The second you bring out your favorite term, Islamophobe, your argument appears to be little more than a "stop picking on me and my Christian brothers" argument, and not one that actually tries to refute claims made.

JaReD · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 4

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Thats a single gospel, not to mention Luke Delibertaly and often used poetic langue and allagories.

Your taking it at face value and out of context, in other words you need to go back to you books and start again.
well, maybe you are right if you're talking about the Verse i got from Luke book, it would be more than great if you make the real meaning behind it more clear.
But, what about the verse i got from Hosea " (Hosea 13:16) "
What maybe the reason for a little child to be "dashed in pieces", even if his father/mother is guilty, it doesn't make the child guilty for his fathers's deeds.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

That is a prophecy of a military siege in Israel. Unfortunately, those sort things do happen in seiges.

BTW That is something that happened to Israel. Not something that God is telling them to do to someone else. .

As for the verses in Luke. First Luke 12:51-53
Y'shua did not come to bring Peace. He came to die as a paschal sacrifice to redeem us from the price of our sins and the fact is many people do not accept the fact that they have sins and need redemption from their price, or they think they can buy their way into salvation with good works and will argue and argue with those who try to spread Y'shua's message. Even within their own family.

Luke 12:49 is relatively simple if you understand scripture symbolism.
Fire represents YHWH's judgement of sin.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5360 Location: Boston, MA

JaReD wrote: I Come To Send Fire

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Luke 12:51-53)

Comment
Jesus did not come to send peace, but rather fire and division among the family. So much for the idea of a pacifist Jesus and the modern concept of "family values."

Rip Up Pregnant Women

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

Comment
Throughout the Bible, God smites those who do not believe in him or those who do not follow his commands. Here we have the grotesque description of infants dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped up. Whatever rebellious nature an infant's father or mother may have had, it bears no justice to an innocent child or to an unborn fetus who could not possibly have rebelled against God, much less understood him.

"The very people who reproached Christianity with the meekness and non-resistance of the monasteries were the very people who reproached it also with the violence and valour of the Crusades. It was the fault of poor old Christianity (somehow or other) both that Edward the Confessor did not fight and that Richard Coeur de Leon did. The Quakers were the only characteristic Christians; and yet the massacres of Cromwell and Alva were characteristic of Christian crimes. What could it all mean?..........."

"And then in a quiet hour a strange thought struck me like a still thunderbolt. There had suddenly come into my mind another explanation. Suppose we heard an unknown man spoken of by many men. Suppose we were puzzled to hear that some men said he was too tall and some too short some objected to his fatness, some lamented his leanness some thought him too dark, and some too fair. One explanation (as has already been admitted) would be that he might be an odd shape. But there is another explanation. He might be the right shape. Outrageously tall men might feel him too be short. Very short men might feel him to be tall. Old bucks who are growing stout might consider him insufficiently filled out old beaux who were growing thin might feel that he expanded beyond the narrow lines of elegance. Perhaps Swedes called him a dark man while Negroes considered him distinctly blonde. Perhaps (in short) this extraordinary thing is really the ordinary thing; at least the normal thing, the centre. Perhaps, after all it is Christianity that is sane and its critics that are mad-in various ways." Orthodoxy- Chesterton

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16694 Location: On Earth

UrielsFyre wrote: You know Saracen, you can make some really intelligently argued posts. This isn't one of them. The second you bring out your favorite term, Islamophobe, your argument appears to be little more than a "stop picking on me and my Christian brothers" argument, and not one that actually tries to refute claims made.

Well, that's not my point, Fyre. My point is that even though I do not know much about Christianity, I still know that it's not a damning religion or ever so appearingly violent.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16694 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: That is a prophecy of a military siege in Israel. Unfortunately, those sort things do happen in seiges.

BTW That is something that happened to Israel. Not something that God is telling them to do to someone else. .

As for the verses in Luke. First Luke 12:51-53
Y'shua did not come to bring Peace. He came to die as a paschal sacrifice to redeem us from the price of our sins and the fact is many people do not accept the fact that they have sins and need redemption from their price, or they think they can buy their way into salvation with good works and will argue and argue with those who try to spread Y'shua's message. Even within their own family.

Luke 12:49 is relatively simple if you understand scripture symbolism.
Fire represents YHWH's judgement of sin.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.

So it was out of context, right?

snow · Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 669

Oh. . . just another topic about some hack website that does a biased reading of the Bible. Ho-hum.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That is a prophecy of a military siege in Israel. Unfortunately, those sort things do happen in seiges.

BTW That is something that happened to Israel. Not something that God is telling them to do to someone else. .

As for the verses in Luke. First Luke 12:51-53
Y'shua did not come to bring Peace. He came to die as a paschal sacrifice to redeem us from the price of our sins and the fact is many people do not accept the fact that they have sins and need redemption from their price, or they think they can buy their way into salvation with good works and will argue and argue with those who try to spread Y'shua's message. Even within their own family.

Luke 12:49 is relatively simple if you understand scripture symbolism.
Fire represents YHWH's judgement of sin.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.

So it was out of context, right?

Basically.

JaReD · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 4

cap'n queasy wrote: That is a prophecy of a military siege in Israel. Unfortunately, those sort things do happen in seiges.

BTW That is something that happened to Israel. Not something that God is telling them to do to someone else. .

As for the verses in Luke. First Luke 12:51-53
Y'shua did not come to bring Peace. He came to die as a paschal sacrifice to redeem us from the price of our sins and the fact is many people do not accept the fact that they have sins and need redemption from their price, or they think they can buy their way into salvation with good works and will argue and argue with those who try to spread Y'shua's message. Even within their own family.

Luke 12:49 is relatively simple if you understand scripture symbolism.
Fire represents YHWH's judgement of sin.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.
No, it's an order, if you please read the following, there's nothing proves that it's something that happened in Israel:

Quote:
Hsa 13:8 I will meet them as a bear [that is] bereaved [of her whelps], and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Hsa 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help.

Hsa 13:10 I will be thy king: where [is any other] that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?

Hsa 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took [him] away in my wrath.

Hsa 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim [is] bound up; his sin [is] hid.

Hsa 13:13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he [is] an unwise son; for he should not stay long in [the place of] the breaking forth of children.

Hsa 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Hsa 13:15 Though he be fruitful among [his] brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Hsa 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

About the other verse, you've made things more clear but it still seems to be confusing.

snow wrote: Oh. . . just another topic about some hack website that does a biased reading of the Bible. Ho-hum.
So...
its all quoted from here: http://www.blueletterbible.org
if you feel like something is wrong, please ignore my comment, and concentrate on the verse i've posted.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

JaReD wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That is a prophecy of a military siege in Israel. Unfortunately, those sort things do happen in seiges.

BTW That is something that happened to Israel. Not something that God is telling them to do to someone else. .

As for the verses in Luke. First Luke 12:51-53
Y'shua did not come to bring Peace. He came to die as a paschal sacrifice to redeem us from the price of our sins and the fact is many people do not accept the fact that they have sins and need redemption from their price, or they think they can buy their way into salvation with good works and will argue and argue with those who try to spread Y'shua's message. Even within their own family.

Luke 12:49 is relatively simple if you understand scripture symbolism.
Fire represents YHWH's judgement of sin.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.
No, it's an order, if you please read the following, there's nothing proves that it's something that happened in Israel:

Quote:
Hsa 13:8 I will meet them as a bear [that is] bereaved [of her whelps], and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Hsa 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help.

Hsa 13:10 I will be thy king: where [is any other] that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?

Hsa 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took [him] away in my wrath.

Hsa 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim [is] bound up; his sin [is] hid.

Hsa 13:13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he [is] an unwise son; for he should not stay long in [the place of] the breaking forth of children.

Hsa 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Hsa 13:15 Though he be fruitful among [his] brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

Hsa 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

About the other verse, you've made things more clear but it still seems to be confusing.

snow wrote: Oh. . . just another topic about some hack website that does a biased reading of the Bible. Ho-hum.
So...
its all quoted from here: http://www.blueletterbible.org
if you feel like something is wrong, please ignore my comment, and concentrate on the verse i've posted.

Samaria is the area just north of Jerusalem.

I'm missing your point.

How could this be an order when it is something that was prophesied to happen to the Jews?

Do you not understand the book of Hosea? It a rebuke against the whored0m of God's choosen people commiting adultery against God.

Maybe it's hard for your mind to compute that the Jews would write something that puts themselves in a bad light. But read Hosea and see for yourself.

Why would the Jews write something that makes them look bad? They wouldn't. It just goes to show that it's really and inspired book from God.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: No, it's an order, if you please read the following, there's nothing proves that it's something that happened in Israel:

It's a prophecy of the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians. This happened because the Northern Kingdom began worshiping idols and various other offenses.

Quote: O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;
See?

A little background history may be in order for you. From Wikipedia:
Quote: Chapter 13 foretells the destruction of the kingdom at the hands of Assyria, because there has been no repentance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea

Have fun learning about this interesting history.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:25 am Post subject:

JaReD wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Thats a single gospel, not to mention Luke Delibertaly and often used poetic langue and allagories.

Your taking it at face value and out of context, in other words you need to go back to you books and start again.
well, maybe you are right if you're talking about the Verse i got from Luke book, it would be more than great if you make the real meaning behind it more clear.
But, what about the verse i got from Hosea " (Hosea 13:16) "
What maybe the reason for a little child to be "dashed in pieces", even if his father/mother is guilty, it doesn't make the child guilty for his fathers's deeds.

The Gospels are litterally full of references and some times outright plagerisms of Old testament texts especially te prophets.

A logicalal conclusion would be that the author of luke had read the book of Hosea, enjoyed the immagery and used it himself.

Batarang Force · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 221

Saracen wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: You know Saracen, you can make some really intelligently argued posts. This isn't one of them. The second you bring out your favorite term, Islamophobe, your argument appears to be little more than a "stop picking on me and my Christian brothers" argument, and not one that actually tries to refute claims made.

Well, that's not my point, Fyre. My point is that even though I do not know much about Christianity, I still know that it's not a damning religion or ever so appearingly violent.
Then you have not read the bible or you are able to magically create a context the is dismissive of any violence to support this delusion. More people died, more people were persecuted "in the name of God" than for any other reason. The Bible is a book that instructs how to conduct genocide and you say "I still know that it's not a damning religion".

Go read your Bible.