Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Just would like to see what folks think about this subject.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

God rules everything, but you (as a human) are unique in that you have the gift of making your own choices (and being held responsible for the consequences of those choices).. in other words, you have "Free Will"..

This is a quality that perhaps even God does not possess..

Man is a very unusual beast indeed..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I really doubt God lacks free will. We surely have it and we are made in His image. And yes, we will be held responsible for our choice in this matter. Do we accept the sovereignty in our lives of the Lord or do we live in such a manner that we really worship ourselves?

It's a difficult question, for sure.

Where's your vote?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16686 Location: On Earth

That's a tough decision, queasy. Very tough, indeed.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: I really doubt God lacks free will.
It's very difficult to say .. and I'm not going to make a statement one way or the other, although to all outwards appearances it would appear as if God operates according to very strict Laws and that although He does manifest a Will, it is not "free" in the human sense of the word.. which is to say, it would appear as if His Will were anything but free, but then again, God can be quite elusive, and it's probably somewhat pointless to speculate on a matter such as this.

Quote: We surely have it and we are made in His image.
So says the Bible, and I would tend to agree..

Quote: Do we accept the sovereignty in our lives of the Lord or do we live in such a manner that we really worship ourselves?
You have no choice by to accept God's sovereignty.. to disregard it is to negate yourself (permanently) out of Existence. God is the operating "Law" by which Creation is ordered.. If you "exist", you must (by definition) accept and be operating according to the Rule Set that is God.. God rules over Creation (and everything in it) whether you like it or not.. kinda by definition.

Whether or not you choose to align your will (freely) w/ the Will of God is another matter entirely.. and that I think is what you're trying to ask.

Quote: Where's your vote?
I didn't vote b/c the question is not phrased in a way that I can understand it.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Saracen wrote: That's a tough decision, queasy. Very tough, indeed.
I agree .. that's why I didn't answer the question.

The question is phrased in such a way that not only is it "tough", but it's unresovable.. it's a paradox. Both answers are correct.

God rules over Creation (and, by inclusion, man), but at the same time man creates his own destiny (and hence, his own reality) as a consequence of the decisions that man has the freedom to make.

Both answers are correct. The question is quite deceptive, imho..

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

I do not worship the god of Abraham, so if that matters, disregard my answer and my vote.

I voted I'm my own ruler. The gods I revere do not want to make slaves of their faithful, and I would not revere any god that did.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: God rules everything, but you (as a human) are unique in that you have the gift of making your own choices (and being held responsible for the consequences of those choices).. in other words, you have "Free Will"..

This is a quality that perhaps even God does not possess..

Man is a very unusual beast indeed..

You seem to not really understand the question.

You have the free will to allow God to rule your life.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Korimyr the Rat wrote: I do not worship the god of Abraham, so if that matters, disregard my answer and my vote.

I voted I'm my own ruler. The gods I revere do not want to make slaves of their faithful, and I would not revere any god that did.

Of course they do. By rejecting the one true God....you're a slave to sin...and their objective is successful.

It's a pitiful thing; the slave who doesn't know he's a slave.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Korimyr the Rat wrote: I do not worship the god of Abraham, so if that matters, disregard my answer and my vote.

I voted I'm my own ruler. The gods I revere do not want to make slaves of their faithful, and I would not revere any god that did.

I'd say as it's in the christianity forum, the poll was intended for christians and not you.
That being said, I also voted for "I'm my own ruler" for the same reasons as you...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: I do not worship the god of Abraham, so if that matters, disregard my answer and my vote.

No, the question is open to all.

BTW, John told you the same thing I would have. Realizing that when we rule ourselves we are actually chaining our spirit to material things such as our own desires is very difficult.

I ask you to consider that carefully. It is a very difficult thing to trust YHWH. But I assure you, YHWH keeps all of His promises to us.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:51 am Post subject:

I am sovereign over my life, which I then divert to God via a choice.

So I guess my answer is God, but was a decision that was chosen, not forced. Does that make sense?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Todd D. wrote: I am sovereign over my life, which I then divert to God via a choice.

So I guess my answer is God, but was a decision that was chosen, not forced. Does that make sense?

Well, I dunno.

I believe that one of the real factors to my becoming "born again"...is that I released control over my life and gave Christ sovereign control. That I accept His will and trust that it what He wants for my life is good.

If you said "I was sovereign over my life" it would make more sense from a Christian point of view.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Todd D. wrote: I am sovereign over my life, which I then divert to God via a choice.

So I guess my answer is God, but was a decision that was chosen, not forced. Does that make sense?

Well, I dunno.

I believe that one of the real factors to my becoming "born again"...is that I released control over my life and gave Christ sovereign control. That I accept His will and trust that it what He wants for my life is good.

If you said "I was sovereign over my life" it would make more sense from a Christian point of view.
Was/could be again would probably be more accurate on my thoughts of the matter, so I split the difference and combined past and future to equal current. :-)

I do my best to follow God, trying to allow him sovereignty. However, I do recognize that at times I rebel, and the fact that I rebel combined with the allowance of God to LET me rebel, leads me to believe that the sovereignty over my actions remains my responsibility.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject:

soldierofchrist wrote: Todd D. wrote: John wrote: Todd D. wrote: I am sovereign over my life, which I then divert to God via a choice.

So I guess my answer is God, but was a decision that was chosen, not forced. Does that make sense?

Well, I dunno.

I believe that one of the real factors to my becoming "born again"...is that I released control over my life and gave Christ sovereign control. That I accept His will and trust that it what He wants for my life is good.

If you said "I was sovereign over my life" it would make more sense from a Christian point of view.
Was/could be again would probably be more accurate on my thoughts of the matter, so I split the difference and combined past and future to equal current. :-)

I do my best to follow God, trying to allow him sovereignty. However, I do recognize that at times I rebel, and the fact that I rebel combined with the allowance of God to LET me rebel, leads me to believe that the sovereignty over my actions remains my responsibility.
To me, "letting Jesus take control" is a cop out of personal responsibility. To say you have no more control over your life allows one to say that they cannot be held accountable for their actions.
Obviously, which is why that decision must be a conscious one, while recognizign that we still bear the responsibility for our actions.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: I do my best to follow God, trying to allow him sovereignty.

You're trying to retain your own sovereignty when it does not belong to you. You have free will to choose what you think, certainly, but you do not have the power to ALLOW YHWH anything. He's your sovereign whether you like it or not. You choose not to see that, basically.

I would say you have made the choice wrongly.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: To me, "letting Jesus take control" is a cop out of personal responsibility.

Why is that? Do you think it is possible that Y'shua will lead you to become irresponsible?

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

soldierofchrist wrote: Todd D. wrote: John wrote: Todd D. wrote: I am sovereign over my life, which I then divert to God via a choice.

So I guess my answer is God, but was a decision that was chosen, not forced. Does that make sense?

Well, I dunno.

I believe that one of the real factors to my becoming "born again"...is that I released control over my life and gave Christ sovereign control. That I accept His will and trust that it what He wants for my life is good.

If you said "I was sovereign over my life" it would make more sense from a Christian point of view.
Was/could be again would probably be more accurate on my thoughts of the matter, so I split the difference and combined past and future to equal current. :-)

I do my best to follow God, trying to allow him sovereignty. However, I do recognize that at times I rebel, and the fact that I rebel combined with the allowance of God to LET me rebel, leads me to believe that the sovereignty over my actions remains my responsibility.
To me, "letting Jesus take control" is a cop out of personal responsibility. To say you have no more control over your life allows one to say that they cannot be held accountable for their actions.
I'm sorry but were you kidding here? This has to be a joke because if you legitametly let jesus take over your life what would you do wrong? Now I know lunatics have said this in the past and they all have lied. If jesus takes over your life, you will walk a straighter path, than anyone could do of their own free will.

Dragoon · Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1466 Location: California

No God controls my life. And I wouldn't let him. Why should I subjugate my will to whatever this God wants? I will make my own choices and my own decisions based on my perception ofthe world, not God's.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I do my best to follow God, trying to allow him sovereignty.

You're trying to retain your own sovereignty when it does not belong to you. You have free will to choose what you think, certainly, but you do not have the power to ALLOW YHWH anything. He's your sovereign whether you like it or not. You choose not to see that, basically.

I would say you have made the choice wrongly.
Can I choose not to follow God? Clearly since you think that I am not, then you believe that I can make that choice. That's the definition of sovereignty (since I know you don't like using the dictionary, I'll cut and paste: "Complete independence and self-government.")

Did I say I have the power to allow God anything? No I did not. What I said was that I choose to follow God, reverting my free will over to let Him decide. Sometimes I rebel, trying to do it myself. That's all.