Political Crossfire Forums

Nicholas · Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 321 Location: Rural backwater

LostSoul3412 wrote: We have the right to choice, and the right to our own bodies. The mothers who choose to have an abortion done are only excerising their right not to have a child. Besides, it not death, because there is no life. It is the potential life that be being ended, not an actual life.

Only exercising her right to have an abortion? May I ask, why can't she decide in the first place, or before having an intercourse? Unless her position was uncalled for in the circumstance of rape. I strongly feel that, exercising her woman’s right to have an abortion is a way of concealing her own error of judgement. Most women support their rights to choose than valuing the development of a biological human life. They are wrong, and the truth is the reverse. I do not feel we are trying to strip a woman of her rights, but the innocent life should have the right to live, and established like the rest of us. By all means, deserves not to be terminated on someone's behalf.

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

Nicholas wrote: Most women support their rights to choose than valuing the development of a biological human life. They are wrong, and the truth is the reverse. I do not feel we are trying to strip a woman of her rights, but the innocent life should have the right to live, and established like the rest of us. By all means, deserves not to be terminated on someone's behalf.

First of all, it's not a "truth" but an opinion.

This argument also lies on the assumption that a zygote has the right to life and that a zygote is actually a human being -- not that I necessarily disagree with you. That a zygote has the right to live/zygote is human is not agreed on by everyone.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5248 Location: Boston, MA

sgtshortness wrote: Nicholas wrote: Most women support their rights to choose than valuing the development of a biological human life. They are wrong, and the truth is the reverse. I do not feel we are trying to strip a woman of her rights, but the innocent life should have the right to live, and established like the rest of us. By all means, deserves not to be terminated on someone's behalf.

First of all, it's not a "truth" but an opinion.

This argument also lies on the assumption that a zygote has the right to life and that a zygote is actually a human being -- not that I necessarily disagree with you. That a zygote has the right to live/zygote is human is not agreed on by everyone.

As I pointed out in another abortion thread on this site,(accompanied for the Nth time with numerous excerpts from Embryology textbooks and embryologist quotes) believe what you like but denying an embryo is both human and alive is like denying the earth revolves around the sun.

One can still argue for abortion without ignoring the obvious fact that an embryo is a developing human life.

X-Shocker · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 167 Location: All around you

Your poll is lacking.

I am pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5248 Location: Boston, MA

X-Shocker wrote: Your poll is lacking.

I am pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

What choice do you wish to protect?

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

Gilbert1908 wrote: sgtshortness wrote: Nicholas wrote: Most women support their rights to choose than valuing the development of a biological human life. They are wrong, and the truth is the reverse. I do not feel we are trying to strip a woman of her rights, but the innocent life should have the right to live, and established like the rest of us. By all means, deserves not to be terminated on someone's behalf.

First of all, it's not a "truth" but an opinion.

This argument also lies on the assumption that a zygote has the right to life and that a zygote is actually a human being -- not that I necessarily disagree with you. That a zygote has the right to live/zygote is human is not agreed on by everyone.

As I pointed out in another abortion thread on this site,(accompanied for the Nth time with numerous excerpts from Embryology textbooks and embryologist quotes) believe what you like but denying an embryo is both human and alive is like denying the earth revolves around the sun.

One can still argue for abortion without ignoring the obvious fact that an embryo is a developing human life.

Oops, sorry, I forgot about that =/

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4143 Location: Florida

No, but support in some situations.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

aLienaTeD wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: bubblybuddy wrote: steen wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Have you ever seen one performed?

I had trouble finding the statistics for this particular question, so I thought I'd just ask here. I have seen abortions be performed as part of medical school rotations. They are no more troublesome than other surgical procedures.

No. Isn't this supposed to be a private medical procedure? I haven't seen a rectal exam, open heart surgery or a lung transplant either. What is the relevance of this poll to the abortion debate?
The relevance is whether seeing an abortion would change your mind about supporting it. Unless you've seen one, it would be impossible to answer that question.

Do you have one to show us?
I'm sure I could find one easily, but I doubt the mods would let me post it.

I personally think the abortion debate would be a lot more effective with pictures and videos than with words.

It would, because people are easily shocked and naturally squeamish.

A woman I know keeps putting off having her cat nuetered because Yahoo had a picture of the procedure being performed in Thailand a few weeks ago. And slaughterhouse videos are always good for getting a few people to stop eating meat.

Medical procedures are frequently ugly, as is life. While showing pictures and videos may help to achieve a short-term goal (preventing a single abortion), genuine education on how an abortion will impact the person having it (not the fetus) and the options available instead of abortion, and investment in effective contraception and more education on how to use it properly are the only long term solutions.

sparrow01 · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 1

yes, i am for abortion, i believe its up to the person, it depends on there morals and religeon

coolcodemn3 · Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 60

I have seen on in a video at my church, its a very horrific and graphic, didnt enjoy it. But it did make me feel stronger for the pro-life movement.

I oppose abortion

spearsy23 · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 5632 Location: Fulton, Ks

coolcodemn3 wrote: I have seen on in a video at my church, its a very horrific and graphic, didnt enjoy it. But it did make me feel stronger for the pro-life movement.

I oppose abortion

OMFG BLOOD.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: Lost Soul wrote:
It is the potential life that be being ended, not an actual life.

Potential life is gametes. Actual life is the fusion of gametes to form a distinct individual.
those are egg+sperm. if a sperm and an egg are floating nest to eachother, there is potential life right there, but when the fuse thate become life.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Plodder wrote: Quote: Lost Soul wrote:
It is the potential life that be being ended, not an actual life.

Potential life is gametes. Actual life is the fusion of gametes to form a distinct individual.
those are egg+sperm. if a sperm and an egg are floating nest to eachother, there is potential life right there, but when the fuse thate become life.

But not human life. Humans, by definition, are self-aware.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5248 Location: Boston, MA

mattwa33193 wrote: Plodder wrote: Quote: Lost Soul wrote:
It is the potential life that be being ended, not an actual life.

Potential life is gametes. Actual life is the fusion of gametes to form a distinct individual.
those are egg+sperm. if a sperm and an egg are floating nest to eachother, there is potential life right there, but when the fuse thate become life.

But not human life. Humans, by definition, are self-aware.

There are many defensible positions for abortion, but basing your abortion argument on the fact that an embryo is NOT human life is simply contrary to comon sense and science.

You may claim personhood since that is indefinable and a philosophical argument, but as I keep posting over and over again, denying an embryo is a human life is like denying the earth revolves around the sun.

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote." Pernaud & Moore Pg.2 (common textbook in Embryology courses)

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual." Larsen Pg 1 (Human Embryology Textbook)

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed” O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York.

"Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25." Moore and Persaud, p. 2;

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoa and the resulting mingling of the chromosomal material each brings to the union that culminates the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual. Every one of the higher animals starts life as a single cell the fertilized ovum. The union of two such sex cells to form a zygote constitutes the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual." Bradley M. Patten, M.D. Foundations of Embryology (3rd Edition, 1968), New York City: McGraw-Hill.

"The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization ... The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life". J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 17 and 23.

"The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual." Leslie Arey. Developmental Anatomy (7th Edition, 1974). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers.

"Zygote. This cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being ... Development begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte to form a zygote. Each of us started life as a cell called a zygote." K.L. Moore. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (2nd Ed., 1977). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 1 and 12.

"Based on my education and background, therefore, I believe that from the moment of the union of the sperm and the egg in the human species, there is present a new living human being. The human life is there from the moment of fertilization, and its very essence starts early but is not completed until the second decade of life. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood, and that interruption at any point constitutes termination of human life." Alfred M. Bongiovanni, M.D., University of Pennsylvania Medical Professor, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, April 24, 1981.

"It is widely accepted and widely taught that human beings as well as other organisms reproducing by sexual reproduction this is nothing unique to humans; this is a general biological principle start their existence at the time of conception or fertilization, as a single cell, the zygote." Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, M.D., Harvard Medical School, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant. 3rd Edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.

"Individual human life begins at conception and is a progressive, ongoing continuum until natural death. This is a fact so well established that no intellectually honest physician in full command of modern medical knowledge would dare to deny it. There is no authority in medicine or biology who can be cited to refute this concept. It is not a "theory," as Justice Blackmun wished to easily pass it off." D.J. Moran, M.D., J.D. Gorby, M.D., and T.W. Hilgers, M.D., "Abortion in the Supreme Court: Death Becomes a Way of Life." Abortion and Social Justice, Sheed and Ward, 1974.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings ... Those witnesses who testified that science cannot say whether unborn children are human beings were speaking in every instance to the value question rather than the scientific question. No witness raised any evidence to refute the biological fact that from the moment of human conception there exists a distinct individual being who is alive and is of the human species." Report of the Senate Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to the Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981, page 7.

"Life has a very, very long history, but each individual has a very neat beginning the moment of its conception." Jerome Lejeune, M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Fundamental Genetics, Paris Medical University, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Gilbert1908 wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: Plodder wrote: Quote: Lost Soul wrote:
It is the potential life that be being ended, not an actual life.

Potential life is gametes. Actual life is the fusion of gametes to form a distinct individual.
those are egg+sperm. if a sperm and an egg are floating nest to eachother, there is potential life right there, but when the fuse thate become life.

But not human life. Humans, by definition, are self-aware.

There are many defensible positions for abortion, but basing your abortion argument on the fact that an embryo is NOT human life is simply contrary to comon sense and science.

You may claim personhood since that is indefinable and a philosophical argument, but as I keep posting over and over again, denying an embryo is a human life is like denying the earth revolves around the sun.

No, it's more like denying that a lump of coal is a diamond, or that an acorn is an oak tree.

Do you oppose taking people who are brain dead off of life support?

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

100% opposed.

are you a doctor? how do you know that preborn babies are not self aware? they react to stimuli. they grow, they reproduce, they consume food. They are human in the same way that you and I are human. They have human chromosomes +-1 sometimes. they are a person, because God confers that on us when we are concieved. moving out of the womb does not change that at all, its stupid and aginst reason to think that.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: are you a doctor? how do you know that preborn babies What is that? Is that something like "pre-dead corpses"?

Quote: are not self aware? because they have nop functioning neocortex.

Quote: they react to stimuli. That'sa reflex.

Quote: they grow, So doies my neighbor's abdomen. Is his beer gut somehow therefore a sentient being?

Quote: they reproduce, Embryos and fetuses reproduce? That's an interesting claim.

Quote: they consume food. So does your liver.

Quote: They are human in the same way that you and I are human. Nope.

Quote: They have human chromosomes +-1 sometimes. And so does a hydatidiforem mole. And so does your appendix.

Quote: they are a person, False.

Quote: because God confers that on us when we are concieved. Please provide evidence for your 'just because I say so" unsubstantiated claim.

Quote: moving out of the womb does not change that at all, its stupid and aginst reason to think that. That description seems to fit your post.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Plodder wrote: 100% opposed.

are you a doctor? how do you know that preborn babies are not self aware? they react to stimuli. they grow, they reproduce, they consume food. They are human in the same way that you and I are human. They have human chromosomes +-1 sometimes. they are a person, because God confers that on us when we are concieved. moving out of the womb does not change that at all, its stupid and aginst reason to think that.

No, I am not a doctor.

What I am is someone who believes that a human being is something more than a meat robot. Self-awareness, self-determination, decision making capability, all the things that make us sentient happen to require a functioning brain. This has been proven beyond all doubt by direct observation of people who for various reasons have lost the use of their brains (this is where the folks that keep insisting on debating what is beyond debate when the real ethical and spiritual question is right around the corner can insert something snide if they wish).

You're giving the wrong answer to the wrong question guys.

coolcodemn3 · Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 60

The Underground wrote: coolcodemn3 wrote: I have seen on in a video at my church, its a very horrific and graphic, didnt enjoy it. But it did make me feel stronger for the pro-life movement.

I oppose abortion

OMFG BLOOD. ummm......ok what are you trying to get at?

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

tell me how is a fetus Not a human life?