Political Crossfire Forums

[XiangYu]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Dongfanghong wrote: estimated only 50,000 executions done by the Party of Democratic Kampuchea (formerly the Communist Party of Kampuchea).

It's very disturbing to see those words being used together, "only 50,000 executions"... :? 50,000 over 9 years, that works out to be approx. 5500/year. While it is a heinous crime, I can bet more people die of automobile accidents and drug related incidents per year in the U.S.

[lowchen]

The words Pol Pot and innocent should NEVER be used in the same breath........

[foadi]

TwinkieDP wrote: 50,000 over 9 years, that works out to be approx. 5500/year. While it is a heinous crime, I can bet more people die of automobile accidents and drug related incidents per year in the U.S.
The Khmer Rouge didn't even control Cambodia for four years.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Interestingly, there was a History Channel show on last night (around 10 PM ET) on Mao called "Declassified", it's on weekly and will be onthe Tet Offensive next week.

Bottom line was it really identified the mistakes he made, (moving farmers to create Steel) then having a few years of bad crops which increased the starvation rate.

It was quite interesting and the latest information that was shared really supports the fact that Mao was fully understanding and supported the deaths that occurred - especially with his 4th wife, who seemed to be the "Cultural" strong arm, strictly controlling the rhetoric and propoganda, by rejecting all other Art and only allowing revolutionist plays and movies, created only in China.

What was also interesting, was the lack of accountability the Chinese (even today) own up to on the deaths. That Mao turned to Russia to follow their model of Communism was the first error - then there was a 20-30 million other deaths.

I'd suggest watching this particular show on the History channel - it was well put together!

[lowchen]

foadi wrote: TwinkieDP wrote: 50,000 over 9 years, that works out to be approx. 5500/year. While it is a heinous crime, I can bet more people die of automobile accidents and drug related incidents per year in the U.S.
The Khmer Rouge didn't even control Cambodia for four years.

Yes but, from 1970 to 1975 they were steadily building their influence and taking over control of more and more territory...

[foadi]

lowchen wrote: Yes but, from 1970 to 1975 they were steadily building their influence and taking over control of more and more territory...
I was under the impression that Dongfanghong's 50,000 figure came from 1975-1979

[lowchen]

foadi wrote: lowchen wrote: Yes but, from 1970 to 1975 they were steadily building their influence and taking over control of more and more territory...
I was under the impression that Dongfanghong's 50,000 figure came from 1975-1979

in 75 when they captured the Phnom Penh, things went downhill fast.

[foadi]

Uh -- I know. I am familiar with Cambodian history.

[Dongfanghong]

The 50,000 number indeed comes from 1975 when Phnom Penh was liberated until 1979 when it was taken by the Vietnamese. I do not support all of Pol Pot's, or even most of his actions. I consider him a very strong ultra-rightist who preferred primitivism to Socialism, but he nonetheless wasn't as horrible as the West makes him sound.

Mao Tse-tung's major error came from the Great Leap Forward, it was badly planned and utopianist. Mao said once that success can breed utopianism or inertia in the best of men. This is what occured there. The Great Leap severely unbalanced the economy and combined with the years following of natural disasters was a horrible period. It also allowed the Revisionists to gain even more of a hold in the Chinese government forcing the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution against Liu Shao-chi and allowing the Revisionists of Lin and the Gang to seize control of the GPCR and use it to attack national culture and good loyal comrades.

[Yojimbo]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: My view is that Mao and the Communist revolution during the early 20th century sparked much of the murder in the Asia during the time between 1900 and 1975 - resulting in much of the slaughter that makes up 40 Million lives. Pol Pot was the student of Mao's tactics and had the blessing of Mao during the 1960's and 1970's where the Kumer Rouge took over in Southern Asia.
Agree or disagree and why?

The Red Khmer would never have been able to gain control of Cambodia without the U.S. bombing campaign that drove thousands of Cambodian peasants into the Red Khmer ranks. And as someone else pointed out, Pol Pot was educated in Paris, a hotbed of Communist intellectual activity during the 50's. He also visited Yugoslavian labor camps in the late 50's, and his experiences there also helped inspire his vision of "Democratic Kampuchea." So by your logic Richard Nixon, the French Communist Party, and Tito also share some responsibility for 1-2 million dead Cambodians.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Yojimbo wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: My view is that Mao and the Communist revolution during the early 20th century sparked much of the murder in the Asia during the time between 1900 and 1975 - resulting in much of the slaughter that makes up 40 Million lives. Pol Pot was the student of Mao's tactics and had the blessing of Mao during the 1960's and 1970's where the Kumer Rouge took over in Southern Asia.
Agree or disagree and why?

The Red Khmer would never have been able to gain control of Cambodia without the U.S. bombing campaign that drove thousands of Cambodian peasants into the Red Khmer ranks. And as someone else pointed out, Pol Pot was educated in Paris, a hotbed of Communist intellectual activity during the 50's. He also visited Yugoslavian labor camps in the late 50's, and his experiences there also helped inspire his vision of "Democratic Kampuchea." So by your logic Richard Nixon, the French Communist Party, and Tito also share some responsibility for 1-2 million dead Cambodians.

Love how you conveniently left out Mao's connection to Russia, where he based his entire Communist model, and also left out Pol Pots connection to Mao... way to deflect to bolster an agenda!

I personally like the "drove them into the Khmer ranks" part... like the peasants WANTED to join the death march and get worked to death. I haven't heard that one before. Possibly a breakthrough with the Jews - maybe the Jews WANTED to be gassed and baked in ovens...

:bnghd:

[Yojimbo]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Yojimbo wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: My view is that Mao and the Communist revolution during the early 20th century sparked much of the murder in the Asia during the time between 1900 and 1975 - resulting in much of the slaughter that makes up 40 Million lives. Pol Pot was the student of Mao's tactics and had the blessing of Mao during the 1960's and 1970's where the Kumer Rouge took over in Southern Asia.
Agree or disagree and why?

The Red Khmer would never have been able to gain control of Cambodia without the U.S. bombing campaign that drove thousands of Cambodian peasants into the Red Khmer ranks. And as someone else pointed out, Pol Pot was educated in Paris, a hotbed of Communist intellectual activity during the 50's. He also visited Yugoslavian labor camps in the late 50's, and his experiences there also helped inspire his vision of "Democratic Kampuchea." So by your logic Richard Nixon, the French Communist Party, and Tito also share some responsibility for 1-2 million dead Cambodians.

Love how you conveniently left out Mao's connection to Russia, where he based his entire Communist model, and also left out Pol Pots connection to Mao... way to deflect to bolster an agenda!

I personally like the "drove them into the Khmer ranks" part... like the peasants WANTED to join the death march and get worked to death. I haven't heard that one before. Possibly a breakthrough with the Jews - maybe the Jews WANTED to be gassed and baked in ovens...

:bnghd:

If you want to blame Mao, you have to blame the people I mentioned as well. Mao had no connection to the Russians, save the fact that they were both communist. The Russians helped him not at all during the Chinese civil war. And there was certainly no Russian-Chinese connection by 1975. As someone else pointed out, the Chinese and Soviets were hostile toward each other by this time. The Chinese backed Democratic Kampuchea against the Soviet backed Vietnamese army. Abouth the death march, that didn't start until after the Red Khmer entered Phnom Penh. At that point, anyone who hadn't joined them was forced out of the city into the countryside. Before this, the Red Khmer were fighting against the U.S. backed Cambodian government of Marshal Lon Nol. The carpet bombing of the Cambodian country side convinced many peasants to join the struggle on the side of the Red Khmer (the side that wasn't bombing them). Your analogy with Jewish holocaust victims is not apt. Pick up a book on Cambodian history sometime. David Chandler's The Tragedy of Cambodian History is decent.

[Rankor and Pissing]

The bombing took place prior to 1974... by 1977 2.5 million were estimated dead. While that book you mention may be very good, I'm more interested in actual occurances which are not sprinkled with opinion and conclusions - I'll come to my own.

I like this chronology of facts - it's very enlightening.

http://www.geocities.com/khmerchronology/1975.htm

[Yojimbo]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: The bombing took place prior to 1974... by 1977 2.5 million were estimated dead.
I know. This serves to explain why so many peasants had joined the Khmer Rouge by then.

Quote: While that book you mention may be very good, I'm more interested in actual occurances which are not sprinkled with opinion and conclusions - I'll come to my own.

This book would be right up your alley. It's mostly facts, sparse interpretation. You'll be hard pressed to find a scholarly historical account that does not contain at least a little interpretation, unless you stick to timelines like the one you mention below. The craft of the historian entails interpretation of events, not just simple recitation of what is known (or thought to be known). Also, reading a historian's interpretation of events does not necessitate that you accept his/her opinions at face value; as a reader, you have the luxury to accept or reject them.

Quote: I like this chronology of facts - it's very enlightening.

http://www.geocities.com/khmerchronology/1975.htm

[Dongfanghong]

Again I will point out that the numbers killed by the Khmer Rouge are ranked at around 50,000 by the US CIA. The Pol Pot regime was not a thing to be vastly admired, but it did have it's good points (food self-sufficiency by 1977). The US was what allowed Pol Pot to gain power by the US/South Vietnam bombing runs which slaughtered the peasantry and forced Kampuchea into a famine. Pol Pot was very influenced by the Cultural Revolution in China and I can't find any similarities between Democratic Kampuchea and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at all. The SFRY was more concerned with modernisation and ran it's economy through worker self-management and profit-sharing in enterprises up until the 1970s where Kampuchea was concerned with abolishing technology and returning things to the Communal way of life of the Khmer. The two hold no similarities at all.

[Yojimbo]

Dongfanghong wrote: Again I will point out that the numbers killed by the Khmer Rouge are ranked at around 50,000 by the US CIA. The Pol Pot regime was not a thing to be vastly admired, but it did have it's good points (food self-sufficiency by 1977). The US was what allowed Pol Pot to gain power by the US/South Vietnam bombing runs which slaughtered the peasantry and forced Kampuchea into a famine. Pol Pot was very influenced by the Cultural Revolution in China and I can't find any similarities between Democratic Kampuchea and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at all. The SFRY was more concerned with modernisation and ran it's economy through worker self-management and profit-sharing in enterprises up until the 1970s where Kampuchea was concerned with abolishing technology and returning things to the Communal way of life of the Khmer. The two hold no similarities at all.

I didn't mean to imply structural similarities between their economic systems. The Red Khmer had some pretty crackpot economic policies which, as you point out, most closely resembled those of China. But Pol Pot did visit Yugoslavian labor collectives in the 50's and received inspiration from what he perceived as a communal society working towards one common goal. Very loose connection.
Are you sure about those estimates? I thought it was about 20,000 or so actually killed by the Red Khmer (in Tuol Sleng and other prisons), and about 1-2 million dead from starvation and overwork. These estimates are from a former U.S. ambassador to Cambodia, David Chandler, in a book called Brother Number One. Not sure what his sources were.

[Dongfanghong]

The US CIA cites 50,000 as the average estimate with the maximum estimate being 100,000 dying as a result of the Khmer Rouge regime itself.

[Jehan]

Dongfanghong wrote: The US CIA cites 50,000 as the average estimate with the maximum estimate being 100,000 dying as a result of the Khmer Rouge regime itself.

Link?

[Jehan]

On second thought, no link is needed. I've found it on my own:

CIA World Factbook wrote: Most Cambodians consider themselves to be Khmers, descendants of the Angkor Empire that extended over much of Southeast Asia and reached its zenith between the 10th and 13th centuries. Attacks by the Thai and Cham (from present-day Vietnam) weakened the empire ushering in a long period of decline. The king placed the country under French protection in 1863. Cambodia became part of French Indochina in 1887. Following Japanese occupation in World War II, Cambodia gained full independence from France in 1953. In April 1975, after a five-year struggle, Communist Khmer Rouge forces captured Phnom Penh and evacuated all cities and towns. At least 1.5 million Cambodians died from execution, forced hardships, or starvation during the Khmer Rouge regime under POL POT. A December 1978 Vietnamese invasion drove the Khmer Rouge into the countryside, began a 10-year Vietnamese occupation, and touched off almost 13 years of civil war. The 1991 Paris Peace Accords mandated democratic elections and a ceasefire, which was not fully respected by the Khmer Rouge. UN-sponsored elections in 1993 helped restore some semblance of normalcy under a coalition government. Factional fighting in 1997 ended the first coalition government, but a second round of national elections in 1998 led to the formation of another coalition government and renewed political stability. The remaining elements of the Khmer Rouge surrendered in early 1999. Some of the remaining leaders are awaiting trial by a UN-sponsored tribunal for crimes against humanity. Elections in July 2003 were relatively peaceful, but it took one year of negotiations between contending political parties before a coalition government was formed.

[Yojimbo]

Jehan wrote: On second thought, no link is needed. I've found it on my own:

CIA World Factbook wrote: Most Cambodians consider themselves to be Khmers, descendants of the Angkor Empire that extended over much of Southeast Asia and reached its zenith between the 10th and 13th centuries. Attacks by the Thai and Cham (from present-day Vietnam) weakened the empire ushering in a long period of decline. The king placed the country under French protection in 1863. Cambodia became part of French Indochina in 1887. Following Japanese occupation in World War II, Cambodia gained full independence from France in 1953. In April 1975, after a five-year struggle, Communist Khmer Rouge forces captured Phnom Penh and evacuated all cities and towns. At least 1.5 million Cambodians died from execution, forced hardships, or starvation during the Khmer Rouge regime under POL POT. A December 1978 Vietnamese invasion drove the Khmer Rouge into the countryside, began a 10-year Vietnamese occupation, and touched off almost 13 years of civil war. The 1991 Paris Peace Accords mandated democratic elections and a ceasefire, which was not fully respected by the Khmer Rouge. UN-sponsored elections in 1993 helped restore some semblance of normalcy under a coalition government. Factional fighting in 1997 ended the first coalition government, but a second round of national elections in 1998 led to the formation of another coalition government and renewed political stability. The remaining elements of the Khmer Rouge surrendered in early 1999. Some of the remaining leaders are awaiting trial by a UN-sponsored tribunal for crimes against humanity. Elections in July 2003 were relatively peaceful, but it took one year of negotiations between contending political parties before a coalition government was formed.

That's the estimate I've read as well.