Political Crossfire Forums

[Rankor and Pissing]

Ok, so I need some help understanding what if anything occured during and after the Vietnam war, as it applies to Pol Pot and the Kumer Rouge. Apparently, there are some who believe that the 20 Million Cambodian's and Laotians (from Lao's) "did it to themselves". I'd like to get a reaction and some discussion on this topic, as here's how my retention of history goes:

Specifically from a separate post:

mr FOBolous wrote:
Rankor and Pissing wrote: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/pol_pot.htm


yeeea...i read that little site. so ummm...why does China have to come forward for that? those people did it to themselves. they massacred themselves. the chinese didn't sent their army over there and started raping and killing their people...it's them. granted, that pol pot guy was inspired by the Chinese Culture Revolution but how is that the Chinese fault? the chinese didn't tell him to do it or back him or sponsored him. if anything, the Americans are more responsible for what's going on in those countries than China because of America's constant meddling in their affairs and the american sponsored rebellions.

1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

Link #1

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?

3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

Link #2


My view is that Mao and the Communist revolution during the early 20th century sparked much of the murder in the Asia during the time between 1900 and 1975 - resulting in much of the slaughter that makes up 40 Million lives. Pol Pot was the student of Mao's tactics and had the blessing of Mao during the 1960's and 1970's where the Kumer Rouge took over in Southern Asia. That China now is upset at Japan for not acknowledging the Nanking Massacres of 300,000 during WWII is somewhat ironic.

Agree or disagree and why?

[Poon]

The way I understand it, most of the Chinese people died as a result of failed agricultural programs (as part of the Great Leap Forward Programs) that caused massive starvation. I wouldn't call that murder by the Government troops.

According to what I've read, this is the nature of the Cultural Revolution: Mao in his late years, wanted to revitalize the revolutionary fervor of the Chinese people. He encouraged younger Chinese citizens, later called the Red Guards, to rise up against any form of authority figure, except for those connected to the Communist party. I believe those younger Chinese citizens were even supplied with military hardware by the gov't. Eventually factions formed amongst the Red guards and there were Urban fighting between the groups.

Should the U.S. be put on international trial for firebombing of non military targets in Japan during WWII? Even without bringing up the Two Atomic bombs, the CIVILIAN casualties were horrendous. Should Americans be put on trial for the deaths of millions of North Vietnamese? Yes, yes, any American will always find a way to justify those deaths, Oh Japan was a Major threat so they deserved to be bombed, Oh We were simply preventing the spread of Communism in Vietnam...

Blah Blah Blah, Any independently minded person will know that is all just politics. When America goes killing it is justified, when other peoples kill it is Genocide. The U.S. was too scared to go head to head with the Soviets and used Southeast Asians as the buffer zone to Contain Communism.

[Rankor and Pissing]

i don't know - are the deaths of millions due to forced work and starvation any better or worse than by a soldier with gun? Even those that didn't die during the Leap Forward programs in China, Mao holds (I still believe) the worlds record for genocidal deaths. More than Stalin, Hitler, all of them.

As far as firebombing Japanese targets in WWII, that was totall acceptable warfare during the times. While now we would see it as cruel and inhumane to punish civillans who are "non-combatants", during the 1930's and 1940's it was common world wide warfare. The Battle of Britain, Bombings of Germany, etc...

Warfare is one thing - Mao and Pol Pot killed civilians exclusively. This would be tantamount to Bush herding all the illegal South Americans together and working them to death with no pay, no food, and burying them in mass graves. I'm not buying that would fly very well anywhere...

[foadi]

You need to stop spelling (and probably pronouncing) Khmer Rouge incorrectly. It is extremely annoying.

Rankor and Pissing wrote: 1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

Link #1

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?
The Khmer Rouge is responsible for acts committed by themselves. The Chinese were allied with Cambodia to counter Vietnamese influence in Southeast Asia. I personally find it sickening. The Khmer Rouge is responsible for the deaths of at least 200,000 ethnic Chinese living in Cambodia at the time (most of whom were merchants).

I don't understand what you are trying to say, though. Pol Pot was educated in Cambodia's former imperial capital; Paris. That's where he became a communist -- along with most other communist leaders in former French Indochina. Is France responsible for the death of two million Cambodians?

Rankor and Pissing wrote: 3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".
The Gang of Four were arrested and executed shortly after Mao died.

[mr_FOBolous]

well Rankor and Pissing, i would appear you are alone in your opinions on this. i wonder why you have such a think for china...? envy maybe? :lol:

[Poon]

mr_FOBolous wrote: well Rankor and Pissing, i would appear you are alone in your opinions on this. i wonder why you have such a think for china...? envy maybe? :lol: Or perhaps fear...

[Poon]

Quote: In 1970, Prince Sihanouk was ousted, not by Pol Pot, but due to a U.S.-backed right-wing military coup. An embittered Sihanouk retaliated by joining with Pol Pot, his former enemy, in opposing Cambodia's new military government.

Quote: From 1969 until 1973, the U.S. intermittently bombed North Vietnamese sanctuaries in eastern Cambodia, killing up to 150,000 Cambodian peasants. As a result, peasants fled the countryside by the hundreds of thousands and settled in Cambodia's capital city, Phnom Penh.

All of these events resulted in economic and military destabilization in Cambodia and a surge of popular support for Pol Pot.

Quote: US bombing raids into Cambodia will continue until 1973. All told, 539,129 tons of ordinance will be dropped on the country, much of it in indiscriminate B-52 carpet-bombing raids. The tonnage is about three and a half times more than that (153,000 tons) dropped on Japan during the Second World War.

Up to 600,000 Cambodians die but the raids are militarily ineffective. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports that the bombing raids are serving to increase the popularity of the Khmer Rouge among the affected Cambodian population.

Quote: On 18 March, Sihanouk's right-wing opponents within the government seize the opportunity, banning his return from China and installing Defence Minister Lon Nol as premier of the newly proclaimed Khmer Republic. The coup is supported by the CIA.

Quote: By 1975, the U.S. had withdrawn its troops from Vietnam. Cambodia's government, plagued by corruption and incompetence, also lost its American military support. Taking advantage of the opportunity, Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge army, consisting of teenage peasant guerrillas, marched into Phnom Penh and on April 17 effectively seized control of Cambodia.
Once in power, Pol Pot began a radical experiment to create an agrarian utopia inspired in part by Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution which he had witnessed first-hand during a visit to Communist China.


Rankor and Pissing: I'm sure you remember these quotes from your previous posts in a different thread. Should the U.S. be put on trial for such horrendous disregard for the lives of others? Is that not a form of genocide, killing 100,000's of civilians to root out the few? I think American leadership have taken to heart the saying by Tyrannical Kings of Ancient China: "I'd rather kill 100 innocents than to let go of 1 guilty."

[Rankor and Pissing]

I had three questions I wanted an opinion on.

1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?

3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

So far the answers are:

1. Yes
2. (Unknown)
3. No, it's America's fault

I understand America had a hand in the the issues following Vietnam. I'm not disputing that. I'm only asking if the Chinese are being held to the same thorough contempt. Again, I'll cite the websites I've already posted showing the Chinese government holds the largest genocidal body count in recorded history.

Free pass to China - America's the cause? Pol Pot get's a free pass in history because of American involvement?

If we're going to hold accountability, great. Let's hold it consistantly across the board - Pull the American's in a the Tribunal and pull in the Chinese and Japanese and Cambodians and Sundanese and everyone else. I mean, am I heard disagreement with that?

[mr crunchy]

vietnam invaded cambodia on new years 1978 to rid them of pol pot

2 nations objected
1 of the was the usa
the other was china

china has never been accused of being a very sympathetic nation and a champion of civil rights
but america has

i believe the term of the east asian holocaust is refered to as ""the nixon doctrine""
of course pol pot and the gang of chinese murderers as well as the vietnamese communists all share responsibility in the slaughter but america has blood on its hands as well

china ended up invading vietnam in the fall of 78 over their invasion of cambodia and they got their asses kicked too in that brief skirmish

[Poon]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: I understand America had a hand in the the issues following Vietnam. I'm not disputing that. I'm only asking if the Chinese are being held to the same thorough contempt. Again, I'll cite the websites I've already posted showing the Chinese government holds the largest genocidal body count in recorded history.

Free pass to China - America's the cause? Pol Pot get's a free pass in history because of American involvement?

If we're going to hold accountability, great. Let's hold it consistantly across the board - Pull the American's in a the Tribunal and pull in the Chinese and Japanese and Cambodians and Sundanese and everyone else. I mean, am I heard disagreement with that? What to do with the Sino government you ask. Well, that question should be answered by the people of Sinae, not Americans, not Washington. The old Red Guard from the Revolutionary age have mostly passed away. If anyone wishes to persecute those remaining men/women then I don't think anyone would put up with much objection. Do not try to drag all members of the CCP into this argument. What was done during Mao's time, was ordered by Mao and his followers, no one else. This is the same reasoning anyone would use when discussing Jewish Holocaust, Enslavement of African Americans etc... etc....

The current CCP leadership stresses gradually granting civil liberties and improvement of people's lives through economic development and is a far cry from Mao's revolutionaries. People keep harping about Sinae, Iran, Russia etc... for being military threats, while the true Hegemonic threat is the United STates, which maintains the world's largest Nuclear Arsenal and overshadows any nation in the world in terms of military spending.

Furthermore, this may be off topic but lets not forget that Communism was a European idea. Since the spawn of this -ism it has been ruthlessly used by demagogues to put themselves into power. If we wish to do no harm the only thing leaders need to do is use soft power.

[mr_FOBolous]

Quote: 3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

:ot:

we're talking about the suppose connection between Pol Pot and China...please don't go off topic and please familiarize yourself with the forum rules :lol: if you want to talk about that...start another thread and i can give you tons of examples many other countires massacering their own people at some point in their history.

[foadi]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: I had three questions I wanted an opinion on.

1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" [???] where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?

3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

So far the answers are:

1. Yes
2. (Unknown)
3. No, it's America's fault
Well, since you have a difficult time reading, I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

1. Pol Pot had connections to the CCP.
2. The Khmer Rouge is responsible for what they did, not China. If you disagree, then name one prominent CPK member who was ethnic Chinese. Just one.
3. The Gang of Four were arrested, put on trail, and executed. They were responsible for the Cultural Revolution. How many times am I going to have to repeat this?

[mr_FOBolous]

foadi wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: I had three questions I wanted an opinion on.

1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" [???] where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?

3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

So far the answers are:

1. Yes
2. (Unknown)
3. No, it's America's fault
Well, since you have a difficult time reading, I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

1. Pol Pot had connections to the CCP.
2. The Khmer Rouge is responsible for what they did, not China. If you disagree, then name one prominent CPK member who was ethnic Chinese. Just one.
3. The Gang of Four were arrested, put on trail, and executed. They were responsible for the Cultural Revolution. How many times am I going to have to repeat this?

:rotf: that is the same problem i had went i tried debating him on another thread. he seems to have a big problem with reading despite his claim that he got a political history degree (from a community college perhaps?). i always had to keep repeating myself over and over and over again and it got quite annoying. and if i make a really good point that destroys his argument, he tends to ignore it or brush it aside...sometimes it even feel like he's responding without reading my posts.

[Rankor and Pissing]

foadi wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: I had three questions I wanted an opinion on.

1. Was Pol Pot connected to China during the "March of Tears" [???] where 2 Million people were basically used as slave labor, murdered raped and finally starved to death?

2. Was the 2 Million deaths caused by the Cambodians and people from Laos as the above post says?

3. Furthermore, has China ever been appologetic or been charged by a War Crimes or Humanitarian Tribunal for it's murder of 40 Million of it's own people both during war time and during it's "cultural revolution".

So far the answers are:

1. Yes
2. (Unknown)
3. No, it's America's fault
Well, since you have a difficult time reading, I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

1. Pol Pot had connections to the CCP.
2. The Khmer Rouge is responsible for what they did, not China. If you disagree, then name one prominent CPK member who was ethnic Chinese. Just one.
3. The Gang of Four were arrested, put on trail, and executed. They were responsible for the Cultural Revolution. How many times am I going to have to repeat this?

Foadi - thanks. I understood your position. I thought maybe TwinkleDP had a more direct answer(?) or not. Either way, I think I understood the events correctly then. Is it a required that someone on the CPK had to be Chinese for partial accountability to be levied on the Khmer Rouge? Did the government of China provide money, arms, and training to the Khmer Rouge? Here's my logic - America is blamed all the time for creating the mess in the middle east by providing arms and money to Saddam during the Iraq and Iran war. Critics say America sowed the seeds and the problems of today were started in the 1980's.

So why wouldn't that same logic be applied to China and the Khmer Rouge? To answer your question Foadi - I couldn't find any CPK members with a Chinese origin. But you follow my logic here right?

[foadi]

I think so. The CCP was wrong to support the Khmer Rouge, but honestly, I don't like the CCP to begin with.

[mr crunchy]

china and the khmere rouge were bedfellows from day 1
i suppose you can deny china's direct involvement in the khmere rouge atrocities but they did support pol pot till the bitter end and as i mentioned earlier
they attacked vietnam because they invaded cambodia in september 1978..

what happened in cambodia was unique in its savagery and indiscriminate mayhem

they didnt just target a specific group
they killed all intelligencia,anyone with eye glasses,anyone who owned land etc...

a holocaust that killed or displaced 1/2 of its population

[Dongfanghong]

First of all, China's food decline was a result of bad planning and natural disasters. But, there was no famine. W.E.B. Du Bois went to China during this time and did many tours of the countryside and he and everyone who went around this time saw no famine. All that occured was a massive drop in the actual supply of food and shortages in many areas, but no famines. The Cultural Revolution was itself a good idea, but was hijacked by Lin and the Gang of Four and they used it to eliminate good Marxist-Leninists like Liu Shaoqi until Chairman Hua and others removed them in 1976. China has appologized for the Cultural Revolution and looks upon it as a massive mistake, the crackdown on Tiananmen in 1989 prevented a second Cultural Revolution.

The other main point is that Pol Pot is accused of far more than he actually did. The US bombed Cambodia during the 1970-1975 period causing over 1 million people to starve. Pol Pot was not responsible for this and took over in 1975, with Cambodia becoming self-reliant in food by 1977. Pol Pot is accused of over 1 million deaths, but many of these deaths, if not all, are the result of the US-caused famines. Pol Pot is estimated by the US CIA of executing a mere 50,000 people, a far cry from the 2 million some people report. Pol Pot had a lot to do with the People's Republic of China and met with Chairman Hua Guofeng in 1977 and declared himself a "follower of Mao Zedong Thought".

The Vietnamese Revolution had many flaws in it's 1975-1986 era. It had much chauvanism and tried to dominate the Revolutions in Indochina. It served as a puppet for the USSR before realizing the USSR's imperialism and adopting Doi Moi in 1986 under Nyugen Van Linh. China was correct to aid the Cambodian comrades. If you really think China was in the wrong to aid the Anti-Vietnamese groups, remember that the US also aided the Anti-Vietnamese resistance in post-Pol Pot Cambodia.

[mr crunchy]

i believe you are trying to simplify the atrocities commited by the khmere rouge by laying the blame of a million deaths on the americans

the americans installed lon nol in 1970
the americans invaded cambodia in may 1970

we bombed the rural cambodian villages who were harboring the vietmihn
much of cambodias rural population moved to the urban areas for relief

then came pol pot

the murders of everyone who was involved in education,music,poetry and the arts is on him and his minions

not the americans who were out of southeast asia and didnt fire a weapon after 1973

[Dongfanghong]

The US puppets in South Vietnam did the same bombing runs in the post-1973 period. If you look at the Cambodian agriculture in 1975, it could feed only about 1/4 of it's people. The crops were completely destroyed from 5 years of destructive bombings. Millions starved because of those bombings of the countryside and infrastructure. However, by 1977, when Cambodia became 100% self-reliant in food, how could there be famines? All real governmental sources, including the US CIA which hated Pol Pot at the time, estimated only 50,000 executions done by the Party of Democratic Kampuchea (formerly the Communist Party of Kampuchea). It was only when the Vietnamese invaded that the entire story of "genocide" began to be promoted and all of the evidence they needed was the skulls of those who had died and they were able to present all skulls and bones from a 9-year span as a single act under Pol Pot to create the image of the Vietnamese hero and not the Vietnamese invader.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Dongfanghong wrote: estimated only 50,000 executions done by the Party of Democratic Kampuchea (formerly the Communist Party of Kampuchea).

It's very disturbing to see those words being used together, "only 50,000 executions"... :?