Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16711 Location: On Earth

Well, I've been hearing a lot of criticism regarding these people, and from what I have seen in them, I have come to despise them for many reasons.

One is their apparent intolerance for what is not American or Christian. They are indeed all anti-Islamic and have come to criticize Muslims with such racist vitriol that I can't stand to listen to those people talk about my religion.

Another is their staunch support for Israel and what is deemed Christian Zionism. I know a lot of Christians don't support Israel on religious terms, but I can't seem to help the fact that these guys are advocating blind support for Israel and blinding their listeners and viewers from the prospect that Palestinian Christians are suffering under occupation.

Third, there is also the prospect of their hateful message spreading around the U.S. of A. I hate what they convey, but what scares me most is that they actually have a following!

Fellow Christians, what's your opinion on these people?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Saracen wrote: One is their apparent intolerance for what is not American or Christian.
Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are neither American nor Christian, in the true sense of those words..

They will be called to pay their debts at a time and place when they are least able to do so..

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Could I do the same about all the muslims leaders who have called for Jihad, or maybe about the destruction of Israel? Why no protest when you hear them say it everyday? Or did you protest when they did a cross full of urine? They're not against the religion of Islam but fanatical islamist. There is a lot of anger in your tone maybe you should address this before you address Pat or Jerry.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Principles of Conscience
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Some important information on one of the tactics of Islam.
http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/destroykafirs.htm

lucidnightmare · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject:

I don't agree with them on most issues,i'm not really classically religious but they aren't racist,thats an easy label these days.I think they both are just lightening rods for people who politically oppose their ideas.They are powerful in that they have influence over a lot of people if not directly the ideas they represent are prevalent in middle America.

Quote: One is their apparent intolerance for what is not American or Christian

Of course they are pro American,why shouldn't they be?There is nothing wrong with pride in ones country and protective attitude towards it.The left in America want to replace national identity with racial and class identity,that is the only way to ever get their agendas through.So they go after national identity and those who symbolize it or display it with vengeance.

Quote: hey are indeed all anti-Islamic and have come to criticize Muslims with such racist vitriol that I can't stand to listen to those people talk about my religion.

You should hear what they say about people who listen to rock music(devil worshipers) people what go to bars(pubs)and people who live together without being married.All of which are American.My point is that they are religious fundamentalist and believe that they are only upholding the word of god.Not unlike Muslim fundamentalist.They have no special hate for Islam,they believe all other religious are false(as Muslim fundamentalist also do).

They may single Islam out at times because we are at war with a violent segment of Islamic fundamentalism.It's the issue of our times.

Quote: Another is their staunch support for Israel and what is deemed Christian Zionism. I know a lot of Christians don't support Israel on religious terms, but I can't seem to help the fact that these guys are advocating blind support for Israel and blinding their listeners and viewers from the prospect that Palestinian Christians are suffering under occupation

That is just a dogma of theirs.They believe that Israel is linked to the apocalypse and return of Christ.There will be no talking them out of that.The Palestinians didn't help their case with bus bombs and dancing in the streets after Sept.11.Most Americans find it hard to support people who hate them in large numbers.And you use the word occupation,they believe that Palestinians are occupiers.

Quote: Third, there is also the prospect of their hateful message spreading around the U.S. of A. I hate what they convey, but what scares me most is that they actually have a following

Does it equally scare you what many Islamic religious leaders teach all over the world every day about non Muslims.I want to live in peace with the Islamic world but how can I when so many Muslims are taught that I am barely human in some cases?And worse the ones that are told that it is their religious duty to impose sharia law on me if they are ever able.That is a recipe for conflict.

What is funny is that I think that one day when the war of terrorism is long over,and it will be, that socially conservative Christians and Muslims will realize that they have issues in common and become a voting block.

At the end of the day they are more tolerant of the Muslim way of life than the left in America would ever be who want to destroy religious belief that leads to a conservative view of things,that is why the "religious right" is viewed as a main enemy by the secularist left.It is the nut they cannot crack and a major road block to achieving their goals.

The right attack Islam out of religious exclusivism(only one true religion) and a stronger sense of nationalism than the left.We were attacked and people are still angry.The left only defend Muslims now because they see it as their role to defend "minorities".But they do not and never will respect their conservative social beliefs.

I say that as a person who isn't all that religious.But I see an important role in America for conservative religious people Christians and Muslims.

Pat and Jerry and just fire and brinstone fundies,they aren't willfully hateful I don't think. just narrow minded.Like I said they used to talk about rock bands almost in the same terms they now talk about Islam.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Principles of Conscience
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Some important information on one of the tactics of Islam.
http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/destroykafirs.htm
You're not more concerned that your country already has been infiltrated and destroyed directly from the White House?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: The left only defend Muslims now because they see it as their role to defend "minorities"

The world is falling right into this trap.
http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/destroykafirs.htm

Take a long hard look at ther UE, Iraq, India, Somalia and many other countries beside the US, as well. All are having much trouble with these people who are allowed to come and live freely in their countries in the spirit of friendship. Well there is a pretty good explanation for this phenomena. And it also explains why non-muslims are kept on such a short leash when they visit Muslim countries. They know what can happen

Divide and Conquer is their grand strategy and Al-Taqiyah is the tactic implemented to pursue this strategy. Quite brilliant, actually.

And that is why you are seeing so many divisive posts by "friendly" muslims and their Marxist cohorts spamming up this forum.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: And that is why you are seeing so many divisive posts by "friendly" muslims and their Marxist cohorts spamming up this forum.
Wow. Just wow. Where has this been heard before? Accusing an ethnicity/religion of being in bed with Marxism and plotting to rule the world.... Sounds familiar....

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Do you deny the existence of the doctrine of Al-Taqiyah?

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Do you deny the existence of the doctrine of Al-Taqiyah?
Based on research, I can find very few sources outside re-posts of "Dr. Walid's" (who I can't find any references for) paper, written in 2000 apparently from India, which by its own admission is still sharply divided between Muslim and Hindu.

Are you familiar with the Perestroika Deception? The idea that the collapse of Communism and the fall of the Soviet Union was a ruse by Gorbahev to lure the West in to a false sense of security? That all Russian policies today are deceptions hiding the "True" intentions of the Russian government? Yeah, that's what I think of this guy's article. Little inkings of truth taken out of context to form a conclusion that is paranoid, dishonest, and borderline racist.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16711 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: Do you deny the existence of the doctrine of Al-Taqiyah?

No I do not. I realize that yes, our extremists are also bad and filthy, but I have yet to see them go to the lengths of besmirching religions, not their followers. Now, Taqiyah, as explained by Glorfindel in the Islam section, is really a military doctrine more than an Islamic doctrine. In fact, it is what we'd like to call a "Bid'a", or ignorant practice, because it does not abide by Islamic doctrine to begin with! Moreover, we as Muslims are not conspiring with Marxists anymore or anyless than Zionists are conspiring with Neocons; in other words, such conspiracies are silly.

LetsGetReal wrote: Could I do the same about all the muslims leaders who have called for Jihad, or maybe about the destruction of Israel? Why no protest when you hear them say it everyday? Or did you protest when they did a cross full of urine? They're not against the religion of Islam but fanatical islamist. There is a lot of anger in your tone maybe you should address this before you address Pat or Jerry.

Ok, ok. Hang on a sec. For one thing, there are radicals who call for the destruction of Israel and Jihad, but they're pretty much ignored like all other extremists. However, concerning the cross and urine, that was not done by Muslims, but I did nevertheless protest it because it was sacrilegeous to a religion akin to mine. I'm not angry; I'm just trying to get a viewpoint from you guys.

lucidnightmare, you make good points.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Do you deny the existence of the doctrine of Al-Taqiyah?

No I do not. I realize that yes, our extremists are also bad and filthy, but I have yet to see them go to the lengths of besmirching religions, not their followers. Now, Taqiyah, as explained by Glorfindel in the Islam section, is really a military doctrine more than an Islamic doctrine. In fact, it is what we'd like to call a "Bid'a", or ignorant practice, because it does not abide by Islamic doctrine to begin with! Moreover, we as Muslims are not conspiring with Marxists anymore or anyless than Zionists are conspiring with Neocons; in other words, such conspiracies are silly.

LetsGetReal wrote: Could I do the same about all the muslims leaders who have called for Jihad, or maybe about the destruction of Israel? Why no protest when you hear them say it everyday? Or did you protest when they did a cross full of urine? They're not against the religion of Islam but fanatical islamist. There is a lot of anger in your tone maybe you should address this before you address Pat or Jerry.

Ok, ok. Hang on a sec. For one thing, there are radicals who call for the destruction of Israel and Jihad, but they're pretty much ignored like all other extremists. However, concerning the cross and urine, that was not done by Muslims, but I did nevertheless protest it because it was sacrilegeous to a religion akin to mine. I'm not angry; I'm just trying to get a viewpoint from you guys.

lucidnightmare, you make good points.
If they are ignored why is there still suicide bombing? If they are ignored why did they dance in streets when 9/11 happened?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16711 Location: On Earth

LetsGetReal wrote: If they are ignored why is there still suicide bombing? If they are ignored why did they dance in streets when 9/11 happened?

Suicide bombing is out of our hands; this is occurring in Palestine-Israel. As for the people who danced in the streets... they're just haters. There are many in the West who just giggle when insurgents and Iraq civilians are killed... matters that insurgents get killed only, tho. ;)

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Who giggles that innocents are killed? I've never seen or heard it and I'm from the "West". Suicide bombing happens in Iraq as well....

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16711 Location: On Earth

LetsGetReal wrote: Who giggles that innocents are killed? I've never seen or heard it and I'm from the "West". Suicide bombing happens in Iraq as well....

Yes, I know, but it seems that many people just don't care anymore. What we should do, as Christians, Muslims, and Jews, is to take into consideration that these radicals are not representative of the entire population, no matter how many times they appear on TV. Most Muslims live in East Asia, where there are very low crime rates and cases of abuse, and where an economy is flourishing. That being said, we can't put the blame on all Christians or Christianity for what the Coalition is doing bad in Iraq, and we can't blame all Muslims or Islam for what is happening to the Iraqi civilians.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

LetsGetReal wrote: If they are ignored why is there still suicide bombing? If they are ignored why did they dance in streets when 9/11 happened?
Why do Americans (an allegedly "Christian" nation) bomb anyone and everyone w/ their B-52s?? (at your financial expense, I might add)..

Problems of spirituality are resolved at the level of the individual. Don't go blaming other ethnic groups for the same problems that you yourself, and your own ethnic group, are responsible for.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Todd D. wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: And that is why you are seeing so many divisive posts by "friendly" muslims and their Marxist cohorts spamming up this forum.
Wow. Just wow. Where has this been heard before? Accusing an ethnicity/religion of being in bed with Marxism and plotting to rule the world.... Sounds familiar....
Yes, it does sound familiar..

I wouldn't even level such a blanket accusation against the Jews, although if cap'n is looking to uncover Marxist conspiracies plotting to rule the world, he'll probably have a lot more luck starting there than he will if he starts w/ the Muslims..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Moreover, we as Muslims are not conspiring with Marxists

The countries that are causing the most trouble adhere to socialist doctrines. Many Marxists claim there is a difference but Al-Taqiyah sounds exactly like a typical Marxist tactic to infiltrate a country and sow the seeds of sedition.

The attempt to divide Christians and Jews in the US and Europe by promoting the idea of a "zionist" conspiracy against Muslims is an excellent example. This seems to have worked perfectly in Europe, but is not quite as successful in the US where Christianity is still strong. Europe is paying the price for this stupidity as we speak.

Quote: According to Al-Taqiyah, Muslims were granted the Shar'iyee right (legitimacy) to infiltrate the Dar el-Harb (war zone), infiltrate the enemy's cities and forums and plant the seeds of discord and sedition. These agents were acting on behalf of the Muslim authority at war, and therefore were not considered as lying against or denouncing the tenants of Islam.

They were "legitimate" mujahedeen, whose mission was to undermine the enemy's resistance and level of mobilization. One of their major objectives was to cause a split among the enemy's camp while downplaying the issues related to Islam ("Oh, I am not religious." "Oh, that is not Islam, you are mistaken, there is so much misinformation." "Oh, it is in the interpretation." "Brother, Islam is all about peace and love and music just like in the 60s.") In many instances, they convinced their targeted audiences that Jihad is not aimed at them, that indigenous people are not targeted. Meanwhile the (allegedly) "un Islamic" Muslims continued their attacks on the target's property and life
http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/destroykafirs.htm

That sounds very similiar to the things you often say, to me.

I don't buy it. Others may, but I don't.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: The attempt to divide Christians and Jews in the US and Europe by promoting the idea of a "zionist" conspiracy against Muslims is an excellent example.
I would be far more concerned about Jewish (Zionist, call it what you want) attempts to divide Christians and Muslims.. We Chriistians have much more in common w/ Islam than we do w/ Jews.. for starters, both Christians and Muslims accept Christ, which is a wonderful start.

Islam was (almost directly) responsible for the European Renaissance, and only slightly less responsible for the founding of the American Republic. You cannot say the same things about Judaism..

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Saracen wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Who giggles that innocents are killed? I've never seen or heard it and I'm from the "West". Suicide bombing happens in Iraq as well....

Yes, I know, but it seems that many people just don't care anymore. What we should do, as Christians, Muslims, and Jews, is to take into consideration that these radicals are not representative of the entire population, no matter how many times they appear on TV. Most Muslims live in East Asia, where there are very low crime rates and cases of abuse, and where an economy is flourishing. That being said, we can't put the blame on all Christians or Christianity for what the Coalition is doing bad in Iraq, and we can't blame all Muslims or Islam for what is happening to the Iraqi civilians.
It isn't a christian mission and I've never grouped all muslims together as terrorists. I understand most muslims aren't this way, but do you hear alot of bad mouthing of such actions in the leadership of the muslim community?