Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

I thought that this would be an interesting topic to discuss about the Paganism that many Arabs believed in until the coming of the sister religion of Judaism and Christianity: Islam, which has 1.3+ billion adherents to this day.

I found several articles on the topic. This one talks of the dieties that the Pagan Arabs worshipped. Although they differed in their worshipping of the various dieties, they all believed that there was a supreme being: Allah, which is just the Arabic word for The God who is worshipped by Muslims, Christians and Jews. This article refutes the false claim that Allah was actually what many anti-Islamics like to call a "moon god"... an excuse to divert the attention and disbelieve the fact that we as Muslims worship the same God as the Christians and Jews.
This objective article explains the Pagan origins of worship and how they compare to certain Islamic rites. However, they have no basis in being "pagan" in Islam or in the Koran, which constantly demonizes pagan worship just like the Bible and Torah do (well, that's religion).
Now my main question for this topic is: what do the pagan beliefs of pre-Islamic Arabs have in common with any pagan belief or cult today?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I don't know that Allah was a moon god or not, but he was the head honcho of the pre-Arabic pantheon of gods and goddesses. From what I am reading this book I have about early Islam it seems he was the creator but shared his power with some three hundred other gods and goddesses whose idols inhabited the holy place in the Kaaba. Apparently Mohammed (pbuh) smashed these idols after his revelation. I think perhap's maybe the folks at this time just didn't know there was one God and mistakenly thought there were more. So when they found out they just used the name of the leader to call him by. That's very interesting to me and it brings to my mind another thought. Be open-minded, because it's kind of strange. I want to know what you think of it.

I was reading Ibn Ishaq and came across something that interested me.

Apparently, Mohammed (pbuh) receives his first vision while sleeping in a cave. I am also aware that the beings known as Jinn inhabit places like this, do you think that possible Mohammed (pbuh) was fooled by one of these creatures? They are known to play havoc on humans sometimes, apparently. Like fulfilling a wish in such a way that it becomes a curse.

When Mohammed (pbuh) had this vision he thought he was possessed by a demon at first and even wanted to kill himself. Then he saw a giant man who claimed to be Gabriel. This is when he started his ministry. Now, this being seems to have given Mohammed (pbuh) much correct information and some incorrect information. And Mohammed (pbuh) thought he was possessed at first, himself. Could it be possible that he actually was?

I ask this because a being whose feet are astride astride the horizon sounds a lot more like a Jinn than the angel, Gabriel, to me. That seems like a dirty trick to play on a people who are known for their loyalty, courage, hospitality, and above all their eloquence.

The Koran is known for the eloquence of Mohammad's(pbuh) speech. Could it be that an evil Jinn knew this and tricked him to harness this talent? There seems to be many solid principles in Islam, but with just enough bad information sneaked in to be dangerous to one's spiritual state.

I only ask this because I reading about this and the thought occurred to me. What do you think, Saracen? I hope this doesn't make you mad at me, but I just had to ask to satisfy my curiosity.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: I don't know that Allah was a moon god or not, but he was the head honcho of the pre-Arabic pantheon of gods and goddesses. From what I am reading this book I have about early Islam it seems he was the creator but shared his power with some three hundred other gods and goddesses whose idols inhabited the holy place in the Kaaba. Apparently Mohammed (pbuh) smashed these idols after his revelation. I think perhap's maybe the folks at this time just didn't know there was one God and mistakenly thought there were more. So when they found out they just used the name of the leader to call him by. That's very interesting to me and it brings to my mind another thought. Be open-minded, because it's kind of strange. I want to know what you think of it.

Ok. What I know is that while the pagan Arabs worshipped many dieties, they considered that there was a Judeo-Christian diety at the time who they call God, or Allah. There were many Jews and Christians living in Mecca at the time as well, and around the vicinity of Mecca. They considered that Allah was the One and Only God, and they abstained from the vicinity of the Kaaba due to the presence of pagans that surrounded it.

cap'n queasy wrote: I was reading Ibn Ishaq and came across something that interested me.

Apparently, Mohammed (pbuh) receives his first vision while sleeping in a cave. I am also aware that the beings known as Jinn inhabit places like this, do you think that possible Mohammed (pbuh) was fooled by one of these creatures? They are known to play havoc on humans sometimes, apparently. Like fulfilling a wish in such a way that it becomes a curse.

He wasn't really sleeping. In fact, he met the Arch-Angel Gabriel and was told to spread the word of God. However, you are wrong about the Jinn. Jinn do not inhabit caves specifically. In fact, according to our beliefs, there could be one sitting right behind you, watching you type into the computer screen. They were and are everywhere, and do incite humans to do wrong. Even though that's quite an objective way of looking at it, I don't find it the case, because as Muhammad (PBUH) came out of the cave, he saw the ArchAngel Gabriel spread across the sky like a giant, and was assured that it was no heresy.

cap'n queasy wrote: When Mohammed (pbuh) had this vision he thought he was possessed by a demon at first and even wanted to kill himself. Then he saw a giant man who claimed to be Gabriel. This is when he started his ministry. Now, this being seems to have given Mohammed (pbuh) much correct information and some incorrect information. And Mohammed (pbuh) thought he was possessed at first, himself. Could it be possible that he actually was?

I don't really think that is the case, according to documented accounts by not only Ibn Ishaq, but by the Prophet's companions, who have also claimed to have seen and met the ArchAngel Gabriel. However, there was another instance that the Satanic Verses were brought down and given to the Prophet. They are not present in the present-day Koran, but I will look up my Islamic sources and produce what those Satanic Verses were.

cap'n queasy wrote: I ask this because a being whose feet are astride astride the horizon sounds a lot more like a Jinn than the angel, Gabriel, to me. That seems like a dirty trick to play on a people who are known for their loyalty, courage, hospitality, and above all their eloquence.

Well, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was indeed a loyal, courage and hospitable person. I appreciate the remarks. However, Jinn were not known to have such monumental sizes. Angels were. Jinn were thought to have possessed strength and what you know as demonic power. The Prophet, from what I can recall, was tricked only once, but again, I'll bring you that story. Thanks for bringing up the objectivity, though. Interesting question. However, if what you're saying is true, then do you believe in Jinn as well?

cap'n queasy wrote: The Koran is known for the eloquence of Mohammad's(pbuh) speech. Could it be that an evil Jinn knew this and tricked him to harness this talent? There seems to be many solid principles in Islam, but with just enough bad information sneaked in to be dangerous to one's spiritual state.

I don't really think so. All the principles of Islam that have come out from its teachings are, in my opinion, justifiable.

cap'n queasy wrote: I only ask this because I reading about this and the thought occurred to me. What do you think, Saracen? I hope this doesn't make you mad at me, but I just had to ask to satisfy my curiosity.

I'm not mad at all, my friend. I appreciate the question. I hope I helped, though. :)

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Well, the difficulty I am having is that Gabriel is an angel that has a specific duty. All that concerns the coming of the Messiah. He would show up in no other context.

He is specifically a messianic herald and I'm not able to connect this duty with these events.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, the difficulty I am having is that Gabriel is an angel that has a specific duty. All that concerns the coming of the Messiah. He would show up in no other context.

He is specifically a messianic herald and I'm not able to connect this duty with these events.

Well, of course, those are your beliefs, queasy, on Gabriel. Gabriel indeed showed up as the one who would bless Mary with the coming of the Messiah. If you're not able to connect this link between him and the Prophet (pbuh), then, again, that's your beliefs.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2269 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Well, the difficulty I am having is that Gabriel is an angel that has a specific duty. All that concerns the coming of the Messiah. He would show up in no other context.

He is specifically a messianic herald and I'm not able to connect this duty with these events. I think you are under informed about Gabriel, and HER roles.

Quote: Gabriel is an angel of heaven who appears to the prophet Daniel to interpret a vision (Daniel 8:15). He reveals to Daniel a prophecy found in Daniel 9:20. And in Luke 1:19, Gabriel announces the birth of John the Baptist to Zechariah.
Quote: Apart from Michael, he is the only angel mentioned in the Old Testament. The name Gabriel, which means "God is my strength," is of Chaldean origin and was unknown to the Jews prior to Babylonian captivity. This is odd for an entity that would appear in "no other context" don't you think? 8:)
Quote: The Sumerian root of the word gabri is gbr or gubernator, meaning "steersman" or "governor." Gabriel, who is described as having 140 pairs of wings, is the governor of Eden and the ruler of the cherubim. She is the angel of the Annunciation and the Resurrection, as well as an angel of mercy, vengeance, death, and revelation. Gabriel is unique in the sense that it is almost certain that she is the only female Archangel of the higher echelons Seems as if he/she was busy with quite a few tasks and not all of them involved Jesus. There are many other examples of Gabriel doing things NOT associated with Jesus, but I think I made my point.

As for Saracen, Salaam.
I noticed in one of your links that the people were not only worshiping idols, but praying to the idols to intercede with God on their behalf. In your opinion is this similar to Catholicism praying to saints for the same reasons...some even have little statues of the saints. Is the the same as people who ask other people to intercede on their behalf?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

^Salaam, wormwood. To be honest, I really don't know much, but I hoped that this insight was educational. My main question is: what parts of pre-Islamic Arab paganism can be seen in modern Pagan practices and beliefs, etc.?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I also find it interesting that Mohammed is generally pictured as being surrounded by a halo of fire. As I understanded it, Djinn are comprised of fire.

This looks like it could be a pictorial representation of possession by a Djinn.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: I also find it interesting that Mohammed is generally pictured as being surrounded by a halo of fire. As I understanded it, Djinn are comprised of fire.

Not by a halo of fire, but a white veil covering his face.

cap'n queasy wrote: This looks like it could be a pictorial representation of possession by a Djinn. \

Do you have a pic you can show us?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Come on now, you know there are hundreds of such representations.

Here's some from a 16th century work of Turkish art called "The Progress of the Prophet".

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Notice that every representation of him shows this halo of fire on this site.
http://home.twcny.rr.com/dtz/depictions.htm

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: Notice that every representation of him shows this halo of fire on this site.
http://home.twcny.rr.com/dtz/depictions.htm

This "Halo of Fire" thing is new to me, but I doubt it has something to do with Jinn. It could be their form of a halo or something.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2269 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: To be honest, I really don't know much, but I hoped that this insight was educational. My main question is: what parts of pre-Islamic Arab paganism can be seen in modern Pagan practices and beliefs, etc.? There are many many similarities. MOST pagan deity traditions are based on the religion of ancient Sumer. We recognize the exact same "deities" as the pre-Islamic arabs, we just have different names and culturally relevant behavior for them. Also, my particular form of mysticism recognizes the God of Abraham (more or less) as the central force binding these lesser deities to each other, so in that sense I can relate totally. There is only one difference that applies to me that I noticed, and that is; I can not ask these beings to help me know God, or to intercede with God on my behalf. Only God can do these things, and to ask anyone else, is viewed as praying to these beings, which is forbidden. In my tradition these entities are more of a force of nature that is to be harnessed, and not revered.

This is the reason I asked about people praying to saints, or praying to other people essentially... I know that most people in the "judeochristlam" tradition have accounts of God saying to pray to no other gods before him... and I was curious if you think it extends to these "angels" or even to other people? Why ask the priest for forgiveness when you can go straight to the source?

Going back to your original question, it seems that all religion, just like all civilization was started in the middle east, and that as it spread, it all became more region specific. So we all, monotheist or polytheist, share roots in common traditions, and as such there are certain commonalities that will appear over and over again. Of course I can only speak for myself or my views of other pagan religions, but there is a striking similarity and a suspicious familiarity when looking at almost any ancient pagan tradition.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

Interesting stuff, wormwood. I'd like to see more replies to this thread from other posters though.

wormwood wrote: I know that most people in the "judeochristlam" tradition have accounts of God saying to pray to no other gods before him... and I was curious if you think it extends to these "angels" or even to other people? Why ask the priest for forgiveness when you can go straight to the source?

That's what we as Muslims believe in. We don't believe in paying money to a priest in order to repent for our sins.

It does not make sense.

What did you find most interesting in the links I gave you?

John · Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:52 am Post subject:

Quote: Even though that's quite an objective way of looking at it, I don't find it the case, because as Muhammad (PBUH) came out of the cave, he saw the ArchAngel Gabriel spread across the sky like a giant, and was assured that it was no heresy.

How do you know? The New Testament epistles of Paul warned against this very thing.

Galatians 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

2 Corinthians 11
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

John wrote: How do you know? The New Testament epistles of Paul warned against this very thing.

I highly doubt that. The Koran is not 100% contrary to what is taught in the Bible or Torah, and even so, there still is conviction in the Koran that it is a Revelation from God/Allah/Jehovah.

John · Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

Saracen wrote: John wrote: How do you know? The New Testament epistles of Paul warned against this very thing.

I highly doubt that. The Koran is not 100% contrary to what is taught in the Bible or Torah, and even so, there still is conviction in the Koran that it is a Revelation from God/Allah/Jehovah.

Highly doubt what? I gave you the references.

A revelation from an angel that contradicts the Gospel is a trick from Satan according to the New Testament.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

John wrote: Highly doubt what? I gave you the references.

A revelation from an angel that contradicts the Gospel is a trick from Satan according to the New Testament.

Not according to the Koran.

John · Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject:

Saracen wrote: John wrote: Highly doubt what? I gave you the references.

A revelation from an angel that contradicts the Gospel is a trick from Satan according to the New Testament.

Not according to the Koran.

Well duh...it's the revelation from Satan....600 years AFTER the warning given in the New Testament.

I'm not trying to piss you off....I'm hoping that you're soul is saved.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

John wrote: Well duh...it's the revelation from Satan....600 years AFTER the warning given in the New Testament.

I'm not trying to piss you off....I'm hoping that you're soul is saved.

Well, how would you like it if I told you that your Bible was not what it was 2000 years ago and that if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you're not going to be saved?

We all have our beliefs, and our convictions in those beliefs. ;)