Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

Ever since the recent case of this Afghani person who converted to Christianity was sentenced to death, I started to wonder on Islam's true stance regarding apostasy (leaving Islam for another religion). I really don't know what exactly is the appropriate punishment for such a thing, but I don't think that death is the punishment for apostasy. Isn't it something between man and God if one is to leave Islam for another religion?

jeechoscopy · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:08 am Post subject:

"Mohammad (Sallal'laho alehi wa alehi wa as'habihi wasallam) is the last Prophet of God." It is reality you accept it or not... whatever you are punished to accept it or not to accept it…
You are punished to death at cross or elsewhere... The reality is there without any condition...

Rankor and Pissing · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:38 am Post subject:

I do find it very strange that any religion would physically punish a person while they are still living, for changing their beliefs. Isn't one punished in the hereafter for all eternity - (assuming that religion believes in an afterlife and believes there are consequences for their actions while living).

That MAN must punish the converted or converter (as it may be). This simply fuels the fire for one religion to go against the other - pointing out violence and killing as the norm - yada yada yada.

This is the simple reason I cannot and will not respect the Islamic religion. There is too much death and suffering associated with it - and I'm not talking about Iraq or wars or anything else - just the belief itself. There's a very fine line between being a devoted and good Muslim, to making a mistake and loosing your life. There's no balance, there's rigidity and suffering. Just my opinion, but being a moderate, I would hope I could live where I could choose whatever belief I want and change it if necessary, without being killed for it. Judgement once I'm dead is a sure thing and I'll be held accountable...

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

Rankor and Pissing wrote: There is too much death and suffering associated with it

Yeah, well there's a lot of death and suffering associated with everything, even CHristianity, but I don't see your point. Religion is not to blame for death and suffering.

Rankor and Pissing · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:31 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: There is too much death and suffering associated with it

Yeah, well there's a lot of death and suffering associated with everything, even CHristianity, but I don't see your point. Religion is not to blame for death and suffering.

I'm sorry -Are you stating that there is a State or law that the country of Afghanistan that states this man must be put to death? I thought this is about Islamic Apostacy... your statement saying "religion is not to blame for death and suffering" is vague, however, as it applies to Mr. Abdul Rahman, it is 100% to blame. Let me cite why:

[BACKGROUND]

The trial of Abdul Rahman has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hardline regime was ousted in 2001.

[APOSTACY]

Apostasy - "According to Muslim Law, a male apostate, or murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error; a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recant. If either the husband or the wife apostatize from the faith of Islam, a divorce takes place ipso facto; the wife is entitled to her whole dower, but no sentence of divorce is necessary.

If a boy under age apostatize, he is not to be put to death, but to be imprisoned until he come to full age, when, if he continues in the state of unbelief, he must be put to death. Neither lunatics nor drunkards are held to be responsible for their apostasy from Islam. If a person upon compulsion became an apostate, his wife is not divorced, nor are his lands forfeited.

Therefore, it is not a country law, or cultural law that identifies punishment for apostacy, but the actions are identified within the religion. If a "moderate" Muslim directs and as the new story suggests, to incite a mob to kill this man for turning his back on Islam, any rational person would identify that action as a "religious" one. This is typical of Islam, but usually very conservative and devoted Shia.

So I'll punt back to you and please provide support for your claim where THIS SPECIFIC PERSON AND ISSUE, religion is not to blame.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

Rankor and Pissing wrote: I'm sorry -Are you stating that there is a State or law that the country of Afghanistan that states this man must be put to death? I thought this is about Islamic Apostacy... your statement saying "religion is not to blame for death and suffering" is vague, however, as it applies to Mr. Abdul Rahman, it is 100% to blame. Let me cite why:

You forgot to put a link. Moreover, as I said before, the issue of apostasy is controversial. You must have not read your own source:

Quote: According to Muslim Law, a male apostate, or murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error... a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recant

Also, just because of what one sheik said does not make it true. There was this sheik who asserted that Medina was invaded when the Prophet (pbuh) came when history clearly speaks otherwise.

Rankor and Pissing · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject:

[quote="Saracen"]
You forgot to put a link. Moreover, as I said before, the issue of apostasy is controversial. You must have not read your own source:

Quote: According to Muslim Law, a male apostate, or murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error... a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recant

Not seeing the controversy in the above. So if the man doesn't recant the other religion he's "liable to be put to death". Seems fairly clear and uncontrovercial to me. Please show me the controversy. :roll:

Saracen wrote: Also, just because of what one sheik said does not make it true. There was this sheik who asserted that Medina was invaded when the Prophet (pbuh) came when history clearly speaks otherwise.

So who does speak and make it true? I mean, any action by Islam, as the one in Afghanistan, can be defended using the same tactic: Imam/Sheik So and So does not speak for all Muslims, and therefore believing in Islam is saved from dishonor. No one can or would speak for Islam - therefore any and all options are kept open.

Here's the link.
Here's some more

I'm sure you're familiar with Hadith teachings regarding Apostacy as well, so I won't bother linking to them or pasting them here.

My guess is you're making a distinction between Muslim law and religion(?). Let give you my POV - if it has to do with a Muslim belief, Islam, or an Imam citing someone should die for apostacy. I actually did read my own source and it clearly states:

"According to MUSLIM LAW"... Muslim equating to Islam, in which Islam is a religion. To give an analogy, a boulder, which is made up of rocks, which is a "stone". What part of MUSLIM LAW or SHARIA is not clear? Shari'a and Hadith teachings both support penalties for such actions. The severity and immediacy of those same actions seem to slightly differ.

Don't play semantics, just be factual. While I understand the call for this mans death is NOT shared by all Muslims, it certainly is by many Muslims. Perhaps you can cite where in Islamic law the controversy exists as it applies to Apostacy? Everything I've read seems consistant - this man should die, it's just a matter of when.

Rankor and Pissing · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject:

Anything? Anyone?

(bump)

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Anything? Anyone?

(bump)

I'll let my friend Glorfindel answer this one. He is more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. I have to admit, though, that this issue is still controversial. Your links are only one side of the story. I already placed the other side in that other thread in P and G.

Rankor and Pissing · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject:

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1654

I have read that the prophet was aiming to make the new muslims and those who are not very islamic fear being killed if they converted to other religions....

jeechoscopy · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:36 am Post subject:

Abdul Rehman

This would be a powerful case against the whole world of Islam... Some cases need still, to be created... Afghanistan would be the best social-laboratory to practice these experimnets...

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

Muslima wrote: I have read that the prophet was aiming to make the new muslims and those who are not very islamic fear being killed if they converted to other religions....

I was pretty sure of this. Where's Glorfindel when you need him?

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:40 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: Muslima wrote: I have read that the prophet was aiming to make the new muslims and those who are not very islamic fear being killed if they converted to other religions....

I was pretty sure of this. Where's Glorfindel when you need him?

Glorfindel is pro the death penalty I believe, I think I talked about apostacy with him before.
Anyway relax Saracen for that Islam is against killing those who leave the faith.
Read this:

Click me

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

pharaoh wrote: Saracen wrote: Muslima wrote: I have read that the prophet was aiming to make the new muslims and those who are not very islamic fear being killed if they converted to other religions....

I was pretty sure of this. Where's Glorfindel when you need him?

Glorfindel is pro the death penalty I believe, I think I talked about apostacy with him before.
Anyway relax Saracen for that Islam is against killing those who leave the faith.
Read this:

Click me

I knew it! I knew Islam's repuation for being a very tolerant religion is unscathed! :-D Thanks a million for that link!

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

It seems to me that a person who defies God humiliates himself, not God.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: It seems to me that a person who defies God humiliates himself, not God.

Indeed.

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:52 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: pharaoh wrote: Saracen wrote: Muslima wrote: I have read that the prophet was aiming to make the new muslims and those who are not very islamic fear being killed if they converted to other religions....

I was pretty sure of this. Where's Glorfindel when you need him?

Glorfindel is pro the death penalty I believe, I think I talked about apostacy with him before.
Anyway relax Saracen for that Islam is against killing those who leave the faith.
Read this:

Click me

I knew it! I knew Islam's repuation for being a very tolerant religion is unscathed! :-D Thanks a million for that link!

No problemo, I knew this whole apostacy thing was bothering you.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16699 Location: On Earth

pharaoh wrote: No probllemo, I knew this whole apostacy thing was bothering you.

It was about that recent story in Afghanistan.

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:23 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: pharaoh wrote: No probllemo, I knew this whole apostacy thing was bothering you.

It was about that recent story in Afghanistan.

Yeah I know. I was browsing the forums the other day and read your debate with another guy that mentioned this incident.
I recommand checking out this site whenever you have a question, It is owned by Sheikh el Kardawi btw.