Political Crossfire Forums

snow · Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 669

I'm always interested by your posts because you seem to always be arguing against Christianity, or against the "norm" of Christianity, but from what I gather. . . you're a Christian? I'd be interested to discuss your belief system. If you're not, that's OK too. :)

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10198

snow wrote: I'm always interested by your posts because you seem to always be arguing against Christianity, or against the "norm" of Christianity, but from what I gather. . . you're a Christian? I'd be interested to discuss your belief system. If you're not, that's OK too. :)

I'm rather curious myself. :?

Great topic snow! :-D

Mightier Than The Sword · Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 1756 Location: Exobably not.

Good old psholtz. He's like a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Wow, I'm flattered... :lol:

Actually, it's not the first time this thread topic has come up for discussion.. :wink:

I regard myself as a Christian.. nothing more, nothing less. (Or perhaps, better said, a follower of the Christian faith.. I tend to reserve the word "Christian" for those who have been born-again as Jesus teaches in John 3, and I would not - as of this moment - count myself in that group)..

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

Have you been born again?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: psholtz wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

Have you been born again?
No, I have not ..

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject:

LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
Yeah...thats just not true. The substitutionary atonement model wasn't even formalized until Anselm in the 11th and 12th century, then expanded by Aquinus. Oh sure, the texts were thre and there were some primitive forms of it floating around before then, but to suggest that a majority of people from about 300 AD to 1050 AD claiming to be Christian were in fact not is ludicrous.

While I disagree with much of Psholtz's theology (as I'm sure he disagrees with much of mine), I do not feel the need to pretend that he isn't part of this cool club that I am a part of, namely a member of the Christian faith. He is doing his best to follow Jesus's teachings, just as I am doing my best to do the same. That's the definition of "Christian": Follower of Christ. The fact that we have different interpretations does not disqualify either of us from claiming that label, and certainly does not allow either of us to claim the other is mistaken.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Yes but would you not say that the most important thing Jesus did was die on the cross for our sins? And to not believe that would be utterly wrong and I believe would not be christian...

Without his death on the cross we will never see inside the gates of heaven...

The people of that time frame couldn't read let alone think about what we're talking about today unless they were told to by their preists. Sorry that was a very weak arguement.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

LetsGetReal wrote: Yes but would you not say that the most important thing Jesus did was die on the cross for our sins? And to not believe that would be utterly wrong and I believe would not be christian...
Jesus of Nazareth did not die for your sins..

He did your job, now you do yours..

To believe a lie is always wrong.. Therefore, if you choose to persist in holding this belief, you would to well to verify, to the utmost of your abilities, that it is completely, 100% true. You might want to look a little further than just a few bad English translations of Greek/Aramaic texts that are about 2,000 years old.

Quote: Without his death on the cross we will never see inside the gates of heaven...
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this is true?

Quote: The people of that time frame couldn't read let alone think about what we're talking about today unless they were told to by their preists.
This is 1000% true today, as well..

Most of the fundies on this board do an excellent job demonstrating this for the rest of us each and every day..

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

I'm sorry but your posts on religion I just ignore... John 3:16

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

Have you been born again?
No, I have not ..

Well, then by your own definition, you're not a Christian.

I agree with you...in order to be a Christian...you must be born again.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

LetsGetReal wrote: I'm sorry but your posts on religion I just ignore... John 3:16
No you don't.. You've already responded to me three times on this thread alone.. :lol:

And you see, this is exactly what the whole problem w/ those who style themselves as "Christians" is.. They believe one lie (a big lie), namely that Jesus of Nazareth "died for their sins" .. Because of this, they start to believe more and smaller lies as well.. Sooner or later, they loose all sense of honesty w/ themselves and w/ those around them, to the point where almost everything they say becomes -- in some way, shape or form -- clouded by a lie. Some "Christians" are further gone down this road than others, but once you commit yourself to believing in a "lie", this is only course of action available to you from there on in.. and, I might add, it's not a course of action that ends in Heaven..

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

Have you been born again?
No, I have not ..

Well, then by your own definition, you're not a Christian.
I agree.. I try to be quite careful to designate myself as a "follower of the Christian faith", rather than as a "Christian" per se.

snow · Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 669

psholtz wrote:
And you see, this is exactly what the whole problem w/ those who style themselves as "Christians" is.. They believe one lie (a big lie), namely that Jesus of Nazareth "died for their sins" .. Because of this, they start to believe more and smaller lies as well.. Sooner or later, they loose all sense of honesty w/ themselves and w/ those around them, to the point where almost everything they say becomes -- in some way, shape or form -- clouded by a lie. Some "Christians" are further gone down this road than others, but once you commit yourself to believing in a "lie", this is only course of action available to you from there on in.. and, I might add, it's not a course of action that ends in Heaven..

What was Jesus' role here?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: To be a christian you must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all our sins.. You do not believe that so you are not a christian
No, this is completely and 100% untrue.

To be a Christian you must follow the teachings of Christ, or at least make an attempt to do so. Even better, you must be born again, as Jesus teaches Nicodemus in John 3.. The erroneous belief that Jesus of Nazareth "died for your sins" is nothing but a modern form of pagan idolatry. Such a belief has no place amongst a civlized people..

Have you been born again?
No, I have not ..

Well, then by your own definition, you're not a Christian.

I agree.. I try to be quite careful to designate myself as a "follower of the Christian faith", rather than as a "Christian" per se.

Yous said:

psholtz wrote: I regard myself as a Christian.. nothing more, nothing less.

You seem confused. Are you doing ok?

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject:

Quote: Yes but would you not say that the most important thing Jesus did was die on the cross for our sins? And to not believe that would be utterly wrong and I believe would not be christian...
"Most important"? Jesus did a lot of important things, certainly dying on the cross being one of them. However, to say that not agreeing with your specific interpretation of the significance of that death disqualifies someone from being a Christian is a logical leap that I'm not sure I'm willing to make.

Quote: Without his death on the cross we will never see inside the gates of heaven...
Strictly your opinion.

Quote: The people of that time frame couldn't read let alone think about what we're talking about today unless they were told to by their preists. Sorry that was a very weak arguement.
Irenaes couldn't read? Augustine? Crypian? Isidore?

Quote: Well, then by your own definition, you're not a Christian.

I agree with you...in order to be a Christian...you must be born again.
I believe he said as much in his original post.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Todd D. wrote: Quote: Yes but would you not say that the most important thing Jesus did was die on the cross for our sins? And to not believe that would be utterly wrong and I believe would not be christian...
"Most important"? Jesus did a lot of important things, certainly dying on the cross being one of them. However, to say that not agreeing with your specific interpretation of the significance of that death disqualifies someone from being a Christian is a logical leap that I'm not sure I'm willing to make.

Quote: Without his death on the cross we will never see inside the gates of heaven...
Strictly your opinion.

Quote: The people of that time frame couldn't read let alone think about what we're talking about today unless they were told to by their preists. Sorry that was a very weak arguement.
Irenaes couldn't read? Augustine? Crypian? Isidore?

Quote: Well, then by your own definition, you're not a Christian.

I agree with you...in order to be a Christian...you must be born again.
I believe he said as much in his original post.

Yep! Defending the belief that the sacrifice that our Lord did for the world was unimportant is EXACTY what you need to be doing as a "Christian".

You’re a fake, buddy. The sooner you come to terms with that the better off you’ll be.

I call it how I honestly see it.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

Quote: Yep! Defending the belief that the sacrifice that our Lord did for the world was unimportant is EXACTY what you need to be doing as a "Christian".
Wow, did I say that it was unimportant? As I recall I said:
Quote: Jesus did a lot of important things, certainly dying on the cross being one of them.
Hmmm, doesn't seem like I said what you think I did.

Am I "defending" it? Not really. Like I said, I think he's mistaken much like he probably thinks that I am mistaken. What I am defending is the accusation that it disqualifies you as a "Christian". I think it's arrogant and presumptious to act as if Christianity were some "Cool kids club" and anyone that doesn't meet your certain specifications can't join. "Christian" = follower of Christ. Period. If you are doing your best to follow Christ, then you are, by very definition, a Christian. Anything else is politically loaded mumbo jumbo used to exclude rather than include. I don't believe I am fit to make that sort of judgment.

Quote: You’re a fake, buddy. The sooner you come to terms with that the better off you’ll be.
You certainly are welcome to your opinion. I'm very thankful that you aren't my judge. Condemnation coming from you carries about as much weight as when my little cousin calls me a poo-head.