Political Crossfire Forums

[steen]

alclarkey wrote: While a woman has the choice of whether or not to have sex, the unborn do not, they must live inside a uterus, or they will not live. And if she does not have sex, it also will not live.

Quote: And they are not there by choice either. mindless, non-sensate, non-sentient tissue doesn't have any choice of any kind. Tumors have no choice. Kidneys have no choice.

Quote: However, if one could and would to ask a fetus whether or not it wanted die to so its mother could retain the rights to her body, as well as her convenience, what do you think it's answer would be? Why don;t you ask a tumor that question? really stupid "what-ifs" don't have much relevance in the real world.

Quote: She denied her own sovereignty when she had sex. Quote: Fascinating. If it were true that the act of sex entailed the loss of a right to determine how ones body processes were used, then after a woman had sex, we could from this point on force her to give blood, donate organs, or do anything to her body we wished, for remember, she no longer has a right to body sovereignty. Since we do not regard this as right, we do not regard a person as losing body sovereignty merely by having sex.
If you want to take it that far, then I suppose you are right. However pro-lifers only care about the processes involved in nurturing the unborn. Yes, you completely ignore the woman as anything but a self-propelled uterus. As we have pointed out before, pro-lifers are misogynists.

Quote: So I'll revise my statement. She denied the right to the bodily processes that nurture the unborn when she had sex. Still false. There is no such loss of right.

Quote: Quote: Rights are only taken away when one person harms another in some way. Since consensual sex harms no one, it does not by it’s very nature result in the loss of any rights.
In a way consexual sex does harm someone. Mindless tissue is not "someone."

Quote: By having sex and creating a baby There is no baby until birth.

Quote: you have forced that thing to exist, that would not have existed had you not had sex. Just like a lung tumor doesn't exist without smoking. And yet, it remains mindless tissue.

Quote: You have forced a being "Being" is a deceptive term, trying to confer a level of individuality that the zygote/embryo/fetus does not hold.

Quote: to be dependent on another persons bodily functions to continue existing. More deception. There is not "another" person, as only the woman is a person. And we also force lung tumors to be dependent on our bodies by smoking. So what? We still yank mindless tissue that arises from our own voluntary actions.

Quote: If I can convince anyone that abortion is wrong without resorting this "free sex is bad" argument, then the fact that they have said that is irrelevant. But that WAS the argument, the argument that she must suffer for her choices and be punished through being forced to carry the pregnancy to term.

Quote: Besides I don't understand how anyone can view pregnancy as being a punishment, Quote: Let me see. The loss of freedom,
More than made up for with joys of watching them grow As you have no way of knowing her emotions relating to the growth of the conceptus, that is hyperbole. Unless she actually feels such joy, your argument is nonsense and therefore a non-answer. And as she is seeking an abortion, the evidence is strong that she does NOT feel joy from "watching them grow." If she sees it as nothing but a parasite, then she has no more joy over this than over knowing that her tape worm is growing.

Quote: Quote: horrible financial hardships,
One can support a child on roughly $4000 a year, not that much considering that the average household income is about $38,000 a year. And as the women who seek abortions are not necessarily of the average household, then that is irrelevant.

As for your $4000 number, I am curious about where you got that from. It comes to $333/month which will barely cover medical and food bills, not to mention the expenses that are involved with kids throughout childhood. Guess you played with sticks, were dressed in sacks and didn't go to school, right? Silly nonsense like that doesn't help your credibility.

Quote: Quote: the possibility of a screaming kid around you for years, With proper parenting tecniques one can have a well-ajusted child. Well, that is fascinating. You have solved the problems of kids with behavior problems. I am so pleased that you have eliminated the need for counselors, psychologists and psychiatrists, not to mention eliminating colic, ear infections and whatnot. Impressive medical advance you are demonstrating here. When can we expect the publishing of this cure-all in a medical journal?

Quote: Quote: intense pain, Abortions can be quite painful too. Proof of that, please. Please provide evidence that abortions even remotely are as painful as giving birth. No? Spoken like a true guy.

Quote: Quote: ruined school career, My sister is still in school... Getting her PHD is quantum physics, no doubt.

Quote: Quote: interrupted professional career,
There are plenty of women who have children and still have vibrant careers. And plenty that don't. :roll:

Quote: Quote: and a badly damaged body that will never return to normal are a few things that come to mind. For those that do not want this, this is a punishment worse than death. There aren't very many women who go through all this stuff you mentioned who would say they would have rather had an abortion, once they have seen their child grow, even the ones who considered it. Proof of that lie, please.

Quote: And finally one can avoid the loss of freedom, financial hardship, screaming baby etc. by simply putting a child up for adoption. Which not everybody can handle either. But NOOOO, YOU know what is best for her, of course. So you feel that gives you the right to impose into her life and control it. Misogynistic fundie claptrap.

Quote: For starters I notice from your profile that you are male, meaning you are not phsycologically, or physiologically prepared to bear a child, And so are you. yet you have no problem telling women how they should feel about being pregnant. What a friggin' hypocrite you are.

Quote: And if a woman really didn't feel ready, she should abstain from having sex, or at least have her lover wear a condom or have had a vasectomy, And THERE it is, the pro-life, theocratic agenda of trying to control other people's sex-life. It is none of your business, but you obviously want it to be.

[LostSoul3412]

steen wrote: alclarkey wrote: For starters I notice from your profile that you are male, meaning you are not phsycologically, or physiologically prepared to bear a child, And so are you. yet you have no problem telling women how they should feel about being pregnant. What a friggin' hypocrite you are.

I would have to agree with this statement. As a male, I have no idea what the hardships are of giving birth, having an abortion, or losing a child that came out of me, that I harbored in me for nine months, and knowing that I cannot provide for it. I can imagine that it would tear me to shred psychologically, which is another reason why I believe that it should be the mother's choice. Not to say that the father's are not as equally important, but it is the mother that is carrying the potential child, and no one else. The government does not know the woman's pains or miseries, so it should not decide whether or not an abortion is acceptable. It is a mother's choice, and an individual.

(For all those interested, giving birth is roughly the equivalent of a male trying to urinate an orange, don't cite me on that, just something that I heard. Regardless, I can imagine that it is really, really, REALLY painful.)

[alclarkey]

Steen, keep saying this line "Its not a baby until birth" and while you are saying that have a doctor pull a baby from your womb 15 minutes before birth and drive a knife through its heart. Shouldn't be a problem should it?

[steen]

alclarkey wrote: Steen, keep saying this line "Its not a baby until birth" and while you are saying that have a doctor pull a baby from your womb 15 minutes before birth and drive a knife through its heart. Shouldn't be a problem should it? Hmm, I seem to ahve lost my womb that you claim I have. :lol:

But it seems like that emotional hyperbole is your one trick, can that really be so?

[alclarkey]

steen wrote: alclarkey wrote: Steen, keep saying this line "Its not a baby until birth" and while you are saying that have a doctor pull a baby from your womb 15 minutes before birth and drive a knife through its heart. Shouldn't be a problem should it? Hmm, I seem to ahve lost my womb that you claim I have. :lol:

But it seems like that emotional hyperbole is your one trick, can that really be so?

So you're a guy then, It doesn't say in your profile. No matter. The challenge remains, get your girlfriend pregnant, take her to an abortion doctor have him remove the fetus from the womb 15 minutes before it would have been born. Then you take a knife and drive it through the fetus' heart.

And by the way calling the challenge emotional hyperbole is a coward's way out of a challenge.

Here you go: have it it.

[Plodder]

go ahed steen kill it! its just a hunk o tissue!

[spearsy23]

think about it, the baby cannot be born fifteen minutes before birth. When the baby is pulled out it's born. :duh1:

[Plodder]

thats not the point, the point is that a human life does not begin at brth. it begins at conception

[The Grandmaster]

Plodder wrote: thats not the point, the point is that a human life does not begin at brth. it begins at conception

How do you justify this claim unequivocally?

[De0xide]

I wouldnt say it starts at conception, but i wouldnt say it starts at birth. I would say your life starts after fertilization..

[spearsy23]

fertilization would be conception

[spearsy23]

Plodder wrote: thats not the point, the point is that a human life does not begin at brth. it begins at conception
So you admit the point isn't killing a baby, but you attempt to represent it by killing a baby. Brilliant.

[Plodder]

sorry that you dint read the previous posts. you would have understood me. --->what he said was that the point of the exaplme with having the aby pulled out 15 minuted earty is that time has nothing to do with when it becomes life. I mean that there is no point during the pregnancy in which a child becomes alive. His point is thatlife begins at conception.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: thats not the point, the point is that a human life does not begin at brth. it begins at conception It begins before conception.

[SaladFingers]

Whats funny about this discussion is one:

The Supreme Court has not defined what life is.

Two:

If a cell is a living thing, then a fetus is nothing more then glob of cells mashed together, studies that show the fetus does react to stimuli only demonstrate a heap of cells reacting to something.

If by your defination of life your acknowledging the soul enters the body while its in the womb, then it really is a full living human then its murder.

However some people beleive that when the baby has entered the outside world, the first few breaths it takes is the soul entering the body.. then it is a full and complete human.

Interesting perspectives on it.

Anyways about masterbation.. Masterbaiting presents several problems, #1 You begin to fantasize and bend reality to suite how you think it should be.
#2 Studies have shown that people that masterbait a lot become reclusive, further slipping out of reality, and skewing perception of how a relationship with the opposite sex should be..
#3 Pornography makes masterbation worse because now you are seeing a paid model to perform sex acts that you will eventually come to beleive all women enjoy doing in that odd perception.
#4 Masterbation has been linked to rapists, serial killers, and other mental cases in which criminal sex acts are enacted. Infact, pornography and bizarre types of pornography are just 1 of a few characteristics of a sex offenders used in fbi profiling.
#5 People's interests change. Ever heard of some of the wierd stuff out there? Some stuff even grosses me out when I hear about it, such as animal pornography, sex acts involving groups of people, and the most vile of all, child pornography (which god or no god, there is a hell and you will go to hell if you browse that stuff).

Anyways, people get bored with browsing the same category over and over so their interests wander and soon they venture down these dangerous venues and are now s*cked into a world that is tweaking their minds.

So in short, do yourself a favor, dont masterbait.
The end.

[AllAmericanMan]

Doesnt the whole when life begins debate seem so stupid to anyone else? Lets think about this, what is the one action that starts the process of a new developing life? Sexual reproduction ie conception. Not much to think about really.

[Plodder]

you might be interested to know this Quote: The result is a tumor, rather than a baby. This is known as a molar pregnancy. There are only about 3,000 molar preganancies per year in the United States.

Quote: http://health.allrefer.com/health/hydatidiform-mole-info.html

[steen]

SaladFingers wrote: Whats funny about this discussion is one:

The Supreme Court has not defined what life is.

Two:

If a cell is a living thing, then a fetus is nothing more then glob of cells mashed together, studies that show the fetus does react to stimuli only demonstrate a heap of cells reacting to something. An amobae reacts.

Quote: If by your defination of life your acknowledging the soul enters the body while its in the womb, From what Torah scholars have told the soul enters at Nemeth, the first breath.

Quote: then it really is a full living human then its murder. That still is false. "Murder" is an illegal act. As long as abortion is legal, it simply can't be murder.

Quote: However some people beleive that when the baby has entered the outside world, the first few breaths it takes is the soul entering the body.. then it is a full and complete human. See above.

Quote: Anyways about masterbation.. Masterbaiting presents several problems, #1 You begin to fantasize and bend reality to suite how you think it should be.
#2 Studies have shown that people that masterbait a lot become reclusive, further slipping out of reality, and skewing perception of how a relationship with the opposite sex should be.. What studies are these? Scientific studies?

Quote: #3 Pornography makes masterbation worse because now you are seeing a paid model to perform sex acts that you will eventually come to beleive all women enjoy doing in that odd perception. Please provide the proof for your assumption.

Quote: #4 Masterbation has been linked to rapists, serial killers, and other mental cases in which criminal sex acts are enacted. So has eating carrots.

Quote: Infact, pornography and bizarre types of pornography are just 1 of a few characteristics of a sex offenders used in fbi profiling. And are you falsely trying to imply that correlation is causation?

Quote: #5 People's interests change. Ever heard of some of the wierd stuff out there? Some stuff even grosses me out when I hear about it, such as animal pornography, sex acts involving groups of people, and the most vile of all, child pornography (which god or no god, there is a hell and you will go to hell if you browse that stuff). Adn what exactly, is the relevance to the topic here?

Quote: Anyways, people get bored with browsing the same category over and over so their interests wander and soon they venture down these dangerous venues and are now s*cked into a world that is tweaking their minds. Ah, just because you say so, right?

Quote: So in short, do yourself a favor, dont masterbait.
The end. Ah, we should have known. A scare monger. Not unlike in quality to "reefer madness." :lol:

[Plodder]

Quote: An amobae reacts.
an amobae is not human



Quote: From what Torah scholars have told the soul enters at Nemeth, the first breath. yet it also says some where in there : something like in the womb I knew you, there I shaped you, a prophet top the nations I apointeed you.

Quote: Please provide the proof for your assumption.
start looking at porn

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: An amobae reacts. an amobae is not human But it does react, which was the issue at question here. Why are you so cowardly and dishonestly trying to avoid dealing with that?

Quote: Quote: From what Torah scholars have told the soul enters at Nemeth, the first breath. yet it also says some where in there : something like in the womb I knew you, there I shaped you, a prophet top the nations I apointeed you. Specifically talking to Jeremiah. And the specific quote is that God knew Jeremiah BEFORE he was formed in the womb, meaning that what God knows as "Jeremiah" is independent of his physical, cellular presense. As such, an abortion of mere tissue should have no consequense at all.As such, what is a soul? Did God know jeremiah's soul even before the bodily cells were laid down? Then how is your text proof of when jeremiah's soul actually ENTERED his body.

So we see it being fully irrelevant to your argument and detrimental to the argument against abortion. Nice going there. :lol:

Quote: Quote: Please provide the proof for your assumption.
start looking at porn Why?