Political Crossfire Forums

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1774

from time to time i hear libertarians(and other nutjobs) claim that taxation is legalized stealing. for the sake of the argument, let's accept the premise:

is stealing always morally wrong?

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

It is wrong however taxes in some cases could be considered stealing especially if it went to causes like an illegal war that the people who eventually have to pay for it dont want it or into a politicians pocket which seems to happen everywhere more often then not.

thintheherd · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject:

Partisan rhetoric aside, you may have to clarify what sort of taxation you are referring to.

Voluntary taxation, i.e. taxes on products or services that the end consumer has a choice to pay or not, are not stealing in theory. That is not to say abuse cannot happen and thus there is always room for interpretation of each instance.

Income taxes, however, are taken at the point of a gun and are just flat wrong. Precisely why the founders of my country initially forbade them...

Don't believe me? Try not paying in the US and see what happens.

Johannes · Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 834

What about Robin Hood?

thintheherd · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:34 am Post subject:

Johannes wrote: What about Robin Hood?
What about him??

Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.. as romantic as that sounds, is a pipe dream that is seldom realized.

FairTax baby. :-D

Johannes · Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 834

Fair tax is just as much a pipe dream as Robin Hood

thintheherd · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:48 am Post subject:

Is it?

Too simple and logical?

Yeah.. That has a tendency to disturb the timid.

Johannes · Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 834

thintheherd wrote: Is it?

Too simple and logical?

Yeah.. That has a tendency to disturb the timid.

Too simple and logical? Which "Fair Tax" plan are you talking about. I've heard many taxes called the. The NST, the Flat Tax, and many others have all been labeled that.

Wow, already started with the insults. Frankly I'm discouraged that it took so little time to dip that far. Instead of explaining to me or backing up what you had said, you insulst. That's an argumentative fallacy, you should know that!

thintheherd · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:04 am Post subject:

Johannes wrote: thintheherd wrote: Is it?

Too simple and logical?

Yeah.. That has a tendency to disturb the timid.

Too simple and logical? Which "Fair Tax" plan are you talking about. I've heard many taxes called the. The NST, the Flat Tax, and many others have all been labeled that.

Wow, already started with the insults. Frankly I'm discouraged that it took so little time to dip that far. Instead of explaining to me or backing up what you had said, you insulst. That's an argumentative fallacy, you should know that!
No really, I wasn't going for an insult (or insulst)... check my sig. That is the only FairTax on the legislative floor as we speak. Please don't confuse it with any Flat or VAT that you may have heard of prior. I was being sincere and will indeed help you in you understanding as much as I can.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51631&highlight=

Johannes · Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 834

Okay, I'm with you, I've been for the NST for a long time.

thintheherd · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:12 am Post subject:

I like you more already :-D

The Impeacher · Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2928 Location: Everywhere

Random Evil Guy wrote: from time to time i hear libertarians(and other nutjobs) claim that taxation is legalized stealing. for the sake of the argument, let's accept the premise:

is stealing always morally wrong?

libertarians do not understand that property is theft, the theft of the commons...

so, stealing was wrong on both counts, but the crime is lessened if all can partake in the booty without destroying the public wealth...

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1774

thintheherd wrote: Partisan rhetoric aside, you may have to clarify what sort of taxation you are referring to.

Voluntary taxation, i.e. taxes on products or services that the end consumer has a choice to pay or not, are not stealing in theory. That is not to say abuse cannot happen and thus there is always room for interpretation of each instance.

Income taxes, however, are taken at the point of a gun and are just flat wrong. Precisely why the founders of my country initially forbade them...

Don't believe me? Try not paying in the US and see what happens.

not really important which tax i'm talking about, but for the sake of the argument, let's say income tax.

many libertarians say it is flat out theft and theft is morally wrong. however, is stealing always unacceptable? should be a simple enough question....

thintheherd · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject:

Random Evil Guy wrote: thintheherd wrote: Partisan rhetoric aside, you may have to clarify what sort of taxation you are referring to.

Voluntary taxation, i.e. taxes on products or services that the end consumer has a choice to pay or not, are not stealing in theory. That is not to say abuse cannot happen and thus there is always room for interpretation of each instance.

Income taxes, however, are taken at the point of a gun and are just flat wrong. Precisely why the founders of my country initially forbade them...

Don't believe me? Try not paying in the US and see what happens.

not really important which tax i'm talking about, but for the sake of the argument, let's say income tax.

many libertarians say it is flat out theft and theft is morally wrong. however, is stealing always unacceptable? should be a simple enough question....
OK, so your question has less to do with taxation being theft but more so the acceptability of theft itself.

In that case, no, I do not believe that taking one's property, by force and/or without their consent, (theft) is acceptable.

I don't know if I consider myself one but I am curious, why do you consider libertarians 'nutjobs'? Is it because of their stance on this issue?

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

[quote="The Impeacher"][quote="Random Evil Guy"]from time to time i hear libertarians(and other nutjobs) claim that taxation is legalized stealing. for the sake of the argument, let's accept the premise:

is stealing always morally wrong?[/quote]

libertarians do not understand that property is theft, the theft of the commons...

so, stealing was wrong on both counts, but the crime is lessened if all can partake in the booty without destroying the public wealth...[/quote]

So do you think that owning property is stealing? If owning is stealing, then than nothing can be stolen.

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

All stealing is always wrong unless justified in war (in that case objects are "liberated"). However, taxes ,in this country of the usa, are taken because we the people authorized our represenatives to do so. Dislike taxes? Tell your rep.

Taliesin · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Taxation is stealing?

Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: The Impeacher wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: from time to time i hear libertarians(and other nutjobs) claim that taxation is legalized stealing. for the sake of the argument, let's accept the premise:

is stealing always morally wrong?

libertarians do not understand that property is theft, the theft of the commons...

so, stealing was wrong on both counts, but the crime is lessened if all can partake in the booty without destroying the public wealth...

So do you think that owning property is stealing? If owning is stealing, then than nothing can be stolen.

If TI is arguing what I believe he is, he is arguing proudhon's famous line of property is theft. It (The Quote), in my opinion would have been more accurately expressed if it had stated impersonal property is deprivation. Impersonal property being that which is not used by a person and that is held onto in order to gain wealth through speculation, or rent.

NobleOne · Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 78

Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: All stealing is always wrong unless justified in war (in that case objects are "liberated"). However, taxes ,in this country of the usa, are taken because we the people authorized our represenatives to do so. Dislike taxes? Tell your rep.

So why cannot taxes be voluntary?

Nobody can give authorization to anyone to take a third parties property.

NobleOne · Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 78

thintheherd wrote: Johannes wrote: What about Robin Hood?
What about him??

Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor...

You are perpetuating the myth that RH was a socialist. In fact he robbed the evil Sheriff of Nottingham and his fellow statists.

RH was a libertarian hero!

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5260

Random Evil Guy wrote:

is stealing always morally wrong?
No...