Political Crossfire Forums

shifter · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 2 Location: WA

Freedom is an over used description, as in if someone wants to express their ideas they must first consider if they will be laughed or made fun of. America is not truly free because there is no freedom of expression among people, the people who's freedom is restricted by teh opinions of other people, and judging whether or not you wish to be liked and successful, your idea is restricted as such.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8879

No peoples, under any government are truly free. When comparing democracies to one another, America is a nation that is run by an autonomous body that dictates itself without the consent of the people. For example, the American government conducts wiretaps on its own citizens, imprisons its own people for being "suspected terrorists" and holds them as "enemy combatants" without any rights. Even regular prisoners have rights, but an "enemy combatant" has none under any international treaty.

Also, the President himself was elected (the first time) without the majority consent of the people. The Electoral College in America is an institution that degrades the people's votes to insignificant, and the true election power rests in the Electors that vote behind the scenes. The majority vote counts for nothing in America, and so the primary power of a democracy is null and void.

So is America free? Absolutely not. We may have more rights than those of other nations, but we are certainly not free. True liberty can only be achieved through the abandonment of government altogether.

mileshigh16 · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 1

You suggest that we as a people can become truly free by abandoning our government altogether. My question is this, is freedom really worth it? No government can promise us true freedom, but isn't it better to sacrifice some of that freedom for the many benifits a government gives us? And aren't rules one of the things that seprates people from the apes? I believe people don't really want true freedom, what they desire is the illusion of freedom. And that IS something our government can give us.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8879

Human beings are no better than any other creature that walks this Earth. Man and beast are one in the same. Every creature has rules, but what separates us from the common animal is a sense of self-actualization. That idea of making yourself a better person is something that is held back by the same society that gives only an illusion of freedom. If we abandon the cause of true freedom, then we abandon our rights as individuals and become subjects of a government that does nothing but grant us illusions.

So I would say yes, the cause of true freedom is worth it by any stretch of the means. Freedom is what makes the individual the individual, and to abandon that for a pseudo-collective of the national society and their rules does nothing but eliminate a part of the individual, and eliminate the hope for self-actualization.

George W Bush · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:

no ones free in this man=made construct where your forced to pay taxes, work for the money to pay taxes all while being told that your free.

freedoms been sold to us. were not truly free.

The_Right_Honourable · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 682 Location: UK (mostly)

Our freedom is an illusion.

True freedom would be Anarchy. We dont want this. Realistic Freedom is a balance. Liberty versus security(personal or econmic).

Saf · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 377

A libertarian government would maximise freedom while creating a requisite level of security, and that is the closest thing to freedom acheivable by a population of our size.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Americans are not free; just incredibly and unacceptably cheap. Look at all the slave labor that Americans absolutely refuse to do because minimum wage is too insignificant to bend over and pick up. Thank God for Mexicans. We may not pay them a living wage, but they fix our standard of living so low it cannot be heard. I am not free. I absolutely refuse to do nothing for free. Please quit expecting me to work for nothing. I am a human being. Asking me to compete with slaves trying desperately to avoid starvation is not a worthy job, no matter how little it is worth.

George W Bush · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject:

were only free in terms of prospering within the confines of the prosperous. that is, the wealthy people are the ones securing the gates around us. we can only increase the size of the gates but not without achieving greater wealth. Having greater wealth is only freedom because everyone else wants the same thing, which has been etched into our concious as the only way to be FREE. THeres more ways to be free, but they cannot be exploited - the prosperous have managed to make them costly - all true freedom is now paid for - and that is hardly free.

BastionOfSanity · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:

when a black man can't walk certain streets
without being hassaled by the pigs
when the youth are forced into the school system
designed to break the will of the kids
when you don't feel safe walking the streets
of your own f***ing hometown
just cause you look different
people always try to push you around
so this is freedom?!
live in a capatalist system that says
you gotta work just to survive
but when you're stuck in a dead end job
are you really alive?
then they tax us on what we earn
to pay for their f***ing wars
the cold war, war on drugs
the secret war out on the poor
go to school, learn to trade, do as i say you better behave
if this is freedom how come i feel like a f***ing slave?

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8879

BastionOfSanity wrote: when a black man can't walk certain streets
without being hassaled by the pigs
when the youth are forced into the school system
designed to break the will of the kids
when you don't feel safe walking the streets
of your own f***ing hometown
just cause you look different
people always try to push you around
so this is freedom?!
live in a capatalist system that says
you gotta work just to survive
but when you're stuck in a dead end job
are you really alive?
then they tax us on what we earn
to pay for their f***ing wars
the cold war, war on drugs
the secret war out on the poor
go to school, learn to trade, do as i say you better behave
if this is freedom how come i feel like a f***ing slave?

Could not have said it better myself.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

George W Bush wrote: were only free in terms of prospering within the confines of the prosperous. that is, the wealthy people are the ones securing the gates around us. we can only increase the size of the gates but not without achieving greater wealth. Having greater wealth is only freedom because everyone else wants the same thing, which has been etched into our concious as the only way to be FREE. THeres more ways to be free, but they cannot be exploited - the prosperous have managed to make them costly - all true freedom is now paid for - and that is hardly free.

Did he say that? My God. The man is not blind, only blind drunk. Can't you see it? If slave and slave master are equally slaves then the standard of freedom must be equated to wealth, which is the true difference between slave and master. No wonder they equated freedom with poverty during the industrial revolution. What people were freed from was feudal obligations, and their poverty was the result of losing all feudal rights, which was the source of their livelihood.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8879

Fido wrote: George W Bush wrote: were only free in terms of prospering within the confines of the prosperous. that is, the wealthy people are the ones securing the gates around us. we can only increase the size of the gates but not without achieving greater wealth. Having greater wealth is only freedom because everyone else wants the same thing, which has been etched into our concious as the only way to be FREE. THeres more ways to be free, but they cannot be exploited - the prosperous have managed to make them costly - all true freedom is now paid for - and that is hardly free.

Did he say that? My God. The man is not blind, only blind drunk. Can't you see it? If slave and slave master are equally slaves then the standard of freedom must be equated to wealth, which is the true difference between slave and master. No wonder they equated freedom with poverty during the industrial revolution. What people were freed from was feudal obligations, and their poverty was the result of losing all feudal rights, which was the source of their livelihood.

Which is exactly why the concept of money must be destroyed if we are ever to bask in true liberty.

Taliesin · Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject:

LostSoul3412 wrote: Fido wrote: George W Bush wrote: were only free in terms of prospering within the confines of the prosperous. that is, the wealthy people are the ones securing the gates around us. we can only increase the size of the gates but not without achieving greater wealth. Having greater wealth is only freedom because everyone else wants the same thing, which has been etched into our concious as the only way to be FREE. THeres more ways to be free, but they cannot be exploited - the prosperous have managed to make them costly - all true freedom is now paid for - and that is hardly free.

Did he say that? My God. The man is not blind, only blind drunk. Can't you see it? If slave and slave master are equally slaves then the standard of freedom must be equated to wealth, which is the true difference between slave and master. No wonder they equated freedom with poverty during the industrial revolution. What people were freed from was feudal obligations, and their poverty was the result of losing all feudal rights, which was the source of their livelihood.

Which is exactly why the concept of money must be destroyed if we are ever to bask in true liberty.

Gift Econ?

animefreak · Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Pearl Harbor, 1941

"No body of government is truely free"
peoples own opinions stop the freedom that should resonate. the freedom of one is the binding of another, therefore a country is never truely free. :-|

animefreak · Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Pearl Harbor, 1941

Quote: mileshigh16

THE Government must be changed, if not abandoned, we as a country cannot live like this , Bush is a downhill wagon ride to hell.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

I am free. The rest of you can burn for all I care.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Korimyr the Rat wrote: I am free. The rest of you can burn for all I care.

If you are free you are still too dear.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

LostSoul3412 wrote: Fido wrote: George W Bush wrote: were only free in terms of prospering within the confines of the prosperous. that is, the wealthy people are the ones securing the gates around us. we can only increase the size of the gates but not without achieving greater wealth. Having greater wealth is only freedom because everyone else wants the same thing, which has been etched into our concious as the only way to be FREE. THeres more ways to be free, but they cannot be exploited - the prosperous have managed to make them costly - all true freedom is now paid for - and that is hardly free.

Did he say that? My God. The man is not blind, only blind drunk. Can't you see it? If slave and slave master are equally slaves then the standard of freedom must be equated to wealth, which is the true difference between slave and master. No wonder they equated freedom with poverty during the industrial revolution. What people were freed from was feudal obligations, and their poverty was the result of losing all feudal rights, which was the source of their livelihood.

Which is exactly why the concept of money must be destroyed if we are ever to bask in true liberty.

First, you cannot destroy a concept.
Second, Money is a form of relationship, and like slavery in this respect. The fact that money has honor, or that money works against, or upon the concept of honor, which is itself a form of relationship only means that to change society we have to reformulate our relationships. Never forget that money is a trust, and is in fact a demonstration of trust in the government, which is again, a form of relationship. The best forms of relationship, of which a shared liberty is but one, are relationships with little formality and much relationship.
The fact is that we are all bronzed or frozen in unsatisfying relationships, or relationships of forms that hold everyone from his neighbor's throat, that are not spontaneous, nor hardly alive, and not liberty, but only peace, and very often the peace of the slave or the prisoner. Money as a medium of exchange changes free people into slave and master, and in the end changes freedom as a concept from an absolute into a relative and subjective concept.

Robingoblin · Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 6

I am free because I choose to take freedom for myself, wherever in this universe I may be. That simple. True freedom is not something that can be doled out to you by governments, militaries, forefathers who we're constantly reminded fought and died, or even by deities. True freedom dies the moment you accept it from another's hand. Freedom is the simple power of choice, not a way of life, a bill of rights, or a book of commandments. If I choose to pay taxes because I think it is the right thing to do, if I choose to follow the laws because I think the laws are good, if I choose to participate in a war because I think the cause is worthy, then I remain free because I made up mine own mind. It makes no difference to me if other people choose to do the same or allow their wills to be influenced by the threat of reprisals, because I am no kind of zealot, I don't believe that everyone should live, think, and believe as I do. End of story.