Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

Etienne wrote: What does this have to do with the number of Palestinian children killed by Israeli Security Forces? Six times as many Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children, but you post a few pictures of Israelis and expect people to feel sorry for them?

In the Gaza and the West Bank, more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli civilians and security forces combined.

Indeed.

IfAmericansKnew.org wrote:

“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”
-Catherine Cook

Source: These numbers are from Remember These Children, a coalition of groups calling for an end to the killing of children and a fair resolution of the conflict. (View the complete list of the victims, which was last updated on March 10, 2006.)

Let's remember these children. Death is not something to be rejoiced over.

p.s. What state solution do you support, Etienne?

[superskippy]

Heres a link to statistics of the breakdown of fatalities in the conflict.


http://www.ict.org.il/

[sherborne]

DavidXV wrote: Etienne wrote: DavidXV wrote: Well tell that to her Dad, shes dead now.

How about you tell it to the parents of the hundreds of Palestinian children killed by Israeli Security Forces? Israeli security forces are charged with the responsibility of protecting the citizens from the systematic practice of deranged suicide bombers. The posting of what one side says is the history of what happened or the posting of what the other side says doesn't change anything, the UN made it Israel a very long time ago, now it's Israel, and the citizens have a right to live in peace. Crazed madmen blowing up innocent people to seek revenge for their real or imagined past is barbaric savagery and as you can see from the picture they are not evil zionist plotting to takeover the world they are just people.

Holding on to past offenses, embracing hate and murder is a choice that people make, not only kills their victims and destroys many lives, it also kills the hater, blacks out their heart, turns them into animals, turns them into evil workers for satan, destroys their life. God wants people to forgive like Jesus did, to forgive and accept forgiveness to have internal peace, the only way to have internal peace is to forgive, all old things are past away and all things become new. When you walk away from hate, revenge and unforgivingness leaving it behind you for good, then you find abundant life and you have God speaking peace to you soul without even having to wait.

If you don't believe me, ask God.

Im doing my final project for university at the moment and its on Holy warfare. Its interesting the mass stereotyping that goes on in the theatre of holy war, because thats what were talking about here. Jews kill palestinians, Muslims kill jews and christrians have killed Jews in the past. At the end of the day it all boils down to a blame game. And the land of Israel is the biggest factor in this. You must remember that whoever talks about Israel, is merely laying out a subjective interpretation of events. I could write here about how the Jews conquered Israel in the first place under Moses, or how the christians killed Muslims during the crusades, or how Jews have killed Muslims recently (and vice versa). But at the end of the day your talking about perhaps the most significant religious area in the world, because it is so hotly contested (3 faiths claim it as a holy city). Hence why you have so many people being killed. The situation on both sides is deplorable but you cant write off another sides grieviences simply because you dont agree, otherwise we will have more of the same killing for years and years. Both sides need to grow up and quite frankly, the Israelies have more to answer for because they are the ones with all the power. Im not talking about the Israelie people, im talking about the Israelie politicians (and the American). A good example is not recognising Hamas as legitimate. That wont help the situation one little bit and yet we all turn a blind eye to it. In briatin the thing that really turned the peace process in Northern Ireland was the British government accepting Sinn Fein as a legitimate party. Britain in Northern Ireland could effectivly act as a broker because it wasnt completley confounded by the internal problems. This is why America should take more responsibility. Britain were the financial guardians of northern Ireland and (eventually) brought a solution through. This is the role that America needs to do. Dont forget, Sinn Fein was admitted to parliament even though they hadnt fully renounced violence and still had an army. Lets not expect too much from Hamas straight away. Its a positive move that they have even entered the political process. Lets not scupper the best hope we have had in a generation for peace. Israel havnt even dealt with Hamas yet, they may actually find them more trustworthy than Arafat ever was.

[venator]

I agree entirely with ure argumentation Sherborne. I would only add; that in my opinion Jerusalem should be made a free city with a UN administration; precisely because it was/is always a reason for conflict between the 3 major monotheistic religions...

[Etienne]

superskippy wrote: Heres a link to statistics of the breakdown of fatalities in the conflict.


http://www.ict.org.il/

3179 Palestinians killed
1010 Israelis killed

1099 Palestinian Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
764 Israeli Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side

88 Palestinian Non-Combatants below the age of 12 killed
46 Israeli Non-Combatants below the age of 12 killed

581 Palestinian Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 killed
178 Israeli Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29

[The_Right_Honourable]

Sure the Jews have had a rough time. But please shut up with this anti-semitism crap!

Muslims hate Jews for Palestine. Whereas i just find Israelis idiots and fools.

Jews have a real persecution complex as shown by what happened to the Mayor of London, Ken Livingston.

Why cant you call a Jew a Nazi? Are Jews exempt from being evil?

Suicide bombers are cowardly scum. But as far as im concerned Israel is the hand of its own suffering.

Being non-religious and anti-nationalist i see their claims for a right to the land as senseless. Be practical and deal with Hamas. There is no other way.

[superskippy]

Etienne how quiant you forgot to mention the combatants killed...

Of all the Palestinians deaths of abour 3,170, about 1,600 were combatants. A further 400 were killed by the Palestinians themselves. So out of those 3,170 deaths at least 2,000 were not our responsability or were justified kills of combatants.

Furthermore of the Palestinian Non Combatants killed at least 400 were killed in riots or uprisings.

[Etienne]

superskippy wrote: Etienne how quiant you forgot to mention the combatants killed...

Of all the Palestinians deaths of abour 3,170, about 1,600 were combatants. A further 400 were killed by the Palestinians themselves. So out of those 3,170 deaths at least 2,000 were not our responsability or were justified kills of combatants.

Furthermore of the Palestinian Non Combatants killed at least 400 were killed in riots or uprisings.

More Palestinian NON-COMBATANTS have been killed than Israeli NON-COMBATANTS...more Palestinian CHILDREN have been killed than Israeli CHILDREN...yet you want the world to believe that the Israelis are the ones suffering?

WHAT ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS? The statistics indicate that the Palestinians are suffering more...and in response to the Palestinian suffering Israel builds a security wall that completely encircles a Palestinian town, and steals fertile Palestian land.

Go ahead...justify this. Justify the number of innocent Palestinians killed by Israeli Security Forces. Justify stealing Palestinian land. Justify turning a Palestinian town into a prison.

[superskippy]

Theres a difference between a missed shot and intentionally blowing up a bus. One is a murder the other is an accident, the militants and terrorists in the territories bring the suffering to the Palestinians, it is not our intention to harm them.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: Theres a difference between a missed shot and intentionally blowing up a bus. One is a murder the other is an accident, the militants and terrorists in the territories bring the suffering to the Palestinians, it is not our intention to harm them.

Yeah, skippy, thousands and thousands of Palestinian non-combatants died because of accident, yet the fewer Israelis who were killed were targeted on purpose.. Nice, so thousands hit by stray bullets... Give me a break, skippy. You and I both know that both sides kill innocent civilians.

Sunil K. Sharma wrote: On June 22, three Palestinian children, Ahmed Abu Aziz, his brother Jamil Abu Aziz, and Sajedah Famahwi, ages 6, 13, and 6 respectively, were killed by a hail of Israeli tank fire in Jenin. The children were among many Palestinian civilians trying to flee from oncoming Israeli forces. A third brother, Tareq, age eleven, was critically injured.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) issued the usual empty apology, but aver that the Palestinians were heading towards them and were violating a curfew.

Eyewitness reports and videotape footage of the incident obtained by the BBC belie Israel's claim. The Palestinians were in fact running away from the Israelis, and were being fired upon at close range. Eyewitnesses say the residents left their homes because they had heard the curfew had been lifted.

The IDF says it will investigate the incident, but if history is any guide, no one will be punished or even tapped on the wrist, and the matter will soon be forgotten. One can browse over many reports and complaints over the years by the leading Israeli human rights group B'Tselem to know this is as predictable as bulls**t coming out of the mouths of politicians.

That same day in Jenin, a 12-year-old Palestinian child was crushed to death in the course of yet another Israeli army home demolition. That incident elicited barely a word in the US press.

Outside the vapid media coverage of the Israel-Palestinian conflict in the US, anybody with an open mind who reads the European and Israeli press, along with reports by international human rights organizations, knows that deliberate attacks on civilians by the Israeli military are the norm rather than the exception

Last week, CNN aired a five-part special on the Israeli victims of suicide bombings, and posted a memorial website for the slain. A fitting gesture no doubt. Suicide bombings that target innocent civilians are, no matter what the motivations may be, simply reprehensible.

Yet if we are to have any moral consistency or semblance of balance, when is there going to be a documentary on the even larger number of Palestinians killed by Israeli occupation forces? 563 Israelis have been killed and 4,122 injured since the start of the second intifada on September 29, 2000 to July 1, 2002. 1,638 Palestinians have been killed and almost 20,000 injured in the same period.

Is CNN also going to air a segment on the daily humiliations Palestinians suffer in the course of Israel's illegal occupation and colonial conquest of Palestinian lands? The devastation of the Palestinian economy from the closures? Of the Palestinians who have suffered terrible medical problems because they can't get to a hospital because they're barred by (often sadistic teenage) Israeli soldiers manning a veritable Berlin Wall of checkpoints, including pregnant women whose babies died at birth? What of the psychic effect on a culture and society when people can't even travel a few miles to see friends and relatives? Or the epidemic of post-traumatic stress disorders in Palestinian towns that are invaded, and re-invaded, again and again? What about a news segment on the demolition of Palestinian homes and the cancerous growth of illegal Israeli colonial settlements on Palestinian land? Or Israel's barring international humanitarian aid to the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Or the over 800,000 Palestinians under virtual house arrest by the IDF? Or the life-threatening obstacles Palestinian students face just trying to access educational facilities?

Journalistic "balance" is often a misleading concept, especially in a asymmetrical conflict as this. Simply giving equal treatment to every Israeli and Palestinian killed misses the larger issue. Israel is carrying out a decades long colonial war, and it illegally occupies someone else's land. Israel has the 3rd or 4th most powerful military on the planet. It receives the latest and most sophisticated armaments from its superpower patron -- our tax dollars at work. And Israel can get away with ignoring international condemnation and telling the world to bugger off because the US allows it to. The toll of the occupation on Palestinian people and society is far worse than anything Israelis have had to suffer. To talk of stone throwing Palestinian resisters and the PA's military and police units in a comparable breath with the Israeli military is beyond the level of a stupid joke, though one the American press and pundit class are adept at sinking below. But even such a context-ignoring "balance" would be a great improvement from the current rubbish.

CNN exec Eason Jordan has stated that there will be no 5-part (or any part) special on Palestinian suffering; ditto any web memorial. Here is what he had to say on the PBS Newshour (7/3):

NewsHour's Terence Smith: "Eason Jordan, let me ask you what changes you've made in response to some of the complaints. We mentioned a couple in the setup, the series that you did on some of the Israeli victims. Are you going to do a comparable series, for example, on Palestinian victims?"

Eason Jordan: "Well, I think we've done many, many stories on Palestinian victims, and we will continue to do so. Just in the week I was in Israel over the past couple of weeks, we actually did a series of reports out of Jenin. There was a really tragic incident where an Israeli tank fired on a marketplace. Some civilians were killed. Israel said it was an accident. We reported it with that attribution, as Israel said it, but it was a tragedy and innocent civilians were killed. We did, of course, did a week- long series of reports on Israeli victims, but there's a big difference, I would state, between what's happening in Israel and what's happening in the Palestinian territories, because while it's disputable whether Israel is targeting civilians, there's certainly no irrefutable evidence of that in the territories. There's no doubt that suicide bombers are going into Israel and intentionally killing civilians at random."

Jordan merely reiterates, as does the rest of the press, Israel's claim that its attack on the marketplace where the three children were killed was an accident, a tragic mistake.

Yet his more audacious claim is that it's "disputable" whether the Israelis intentionally target civilians.

Really, Mr. Jordan?

This is the same Israeli army that has been condemned by leading human rights groups for targeting civilians [1], medical personnel [2], carrying out assassinations ("targeted killings") of Palestinian activists and leaders which have often resulted in the deaths of bystanders [3], firing on Palestinian residential areas with US helicopter gunships [4], using civilians as human shields [5], and on and on.

The US State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2001 states that the IDF employed "excessive use of force" against the Palestinians, including use of live ammunition in instances when they were not in imminent danger. The report also notes the IDF "shelled Palestinian Authority (PA) institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers." (released March 2002)

Last March, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan conveyed to the US his concern about Israel's use of American weapons:

"I feel obliged to call your attention to disturbing patterns in the treatment of civilians and humanitarian relief workers by the Israeli Defense Forces…. Judging from the means and methods employed by the IDF -- F-16 fighter-bombers, helicopter and naval gunships, missiles and bombs of heavy tonnage -- the fighting has come to resemble all-out conventional warfare. In the process, hundreds of innocent noncombatant civilians – men, women and children – have been injured or killed, and many buildings and homes have been damaged or destroyed. Tanks have been deployed in densely populated refugee camps and in towns and villages; and heavy explosives have been dropped mere meters from schools where thousands of children were in attendance." (New York Times, March 19, 2002)

A report by Amnesty International Australia states:

“Educational, cultural institutions, government offices and especially police stations were destroyed by missiles and explosives. Bethlehem University's new Millennium Hall, opened in 2000, costing $2million, of which $1.2million was provided by USAID's ASHA program (American Schools and Hospitals Abroad), was destroyed by four TOW missiles, each costing $180,000, provided in aid to the IDF by the US Government.”

Curt Goering, Deputy Executive Director of Amnesty International USA said: “It is difficult to imagine that the strike on the university was not intentional.” [6]

Eason Jordan's comment is especially lacking when one looks at the plight of Palestinian children.

Defense of Children International/Palestine Section estimates that 317 Palestinian children have been killed and over 7,000 injured during the second intifada as of August 15, 2002. Many have been maimed and crippled for life.

In an article I wrote last year, I cite at length an interview with an IDF sharpshooter conducted by Israeli journalist Amira Hass of Ha'aretz. In the course of this chilling interview, the sharpshooter admits that IDF policy allows troops to fire at children over the age of 12. I also cite a report by B'Tselem concerning an incident in which Israeli troops fired on a group of children who had finished playing soccer at a refugee camp in Rafah, killing an eleven-year-old boy. B'Tselem concludes:

"An eleven-year-old child was killed and two children were injured for no reason. However, the army failed to open any investigation against the soldiers responsible, even though all the army officials involved in the review of the incident clearly knew that the soldiers had used lethal weapons when their lives were not in jeopardy and had violated army regulations."

B'Tselem goes on to note:

"Over the years, B'Tselem has received hundreds of letters from the Judge Advocate General's office regarding events in which Palestinians were killed, injured, or beaten by soldiers. In some of the cases, Military Police investigations were opened, and in some, the Judge Advocate General's office only conducted an internal investigation. Most of the replies that B'Tselem received state that the soldiers acted properly and that no action was taken against the soldiers involved." [7]

Impunity equals carte blanche for more atrocities. That in my book comes with the turf of deliberately targeting civilians, as reprehensible if not more so than the inexcusable murder of Israeli civilians by Palestinian individuals because we're talking about state terrorism, backed to the hilt by the world's lone superpower.

Further contradicting Mr. Jordan's distortions are the (largely ignored) observations of former NY Times Middle East Bureau Chief Chris Hedges. In an article in Harper's, Hedges writes this about the Israeli military:

"Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." [8]

In an October 30, 2001 interview with NPR, Hedges states:

"And I walked out towards the dunes and they were -- the -- over the loudspeaker from an Israeli army Jeep on the other side of the electric fence they were taunting these kids. And these kids started to throw rocks. And most of these kids were 10, 11, 12 years old. And, first of all, the rocks were the size of a fist. They were being hurled towards a Jeep that was armor-plated. I doubt they could even hit the Jeep. And then I watched the soldiers open fire. And it was -- I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport. It was -- I just -- even now, I find it almost inconceivable. And I went back every day, and every day it was the same."

What should be a worthy topic for discussion here in the US is how can the US media go on putting the onus of blame for the bloodshed in Israel/Palestine squarely on the Palestinians, ignore a mountain of evidence that the Israeli military deliberately targets civilians, ignore the open discussion in the Israeli press and among Israeli intellectuals of Israel's visions of colonial conquest, not view the plight of the victims of that conquest as newsworthy, and completely whitewash the overwhelming military, economic and diplomatic support the United States bestows on its client.

CNN's refusal to air a series on the suffering of Palestinians should be vigorously protested. Palestine Media Watch, a media watchdog organization, is leading such an effort and their website has all the pertinent details and contact info: http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/cast/cnnbias2.asp.

We might also want to discuss the well-documented inculcation of ridiculous stereotypes about Arabs and Muslims by the US media and what passes for "scholarship" in American academic literature.

We should ask how is it that people in the US don't crack up in ridicule when the judicially-installed squatter in the White House mouths platitudes about the Palestinians needing to adopt democratic practices? As much as I despise Arafat, I do recall his election was deemed fair by official observer Jimmy Carter. And then there's the small matter of apartheid in Israel proper, as the Arab minority faces discriminations in every aspect of life: land ownership, equality before the law, access to education, freedom to travel, and more. [9]

We might also want to ask how is it that House Majority Leader Dick Armey can appear on national television and advocate the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza to other Arab countries, i.e. a war crime, and elicit not even a yawn from American commentators or his colleagues in Congress (MSNBC’s Hardball, May 1, 2002). Indeed, the inhabitants of the open sewer we call Congress followed up by passing resolutions calling on America to stand even more decisively behind Israel. All this after Israel's war crime outrages in Jenin this past April garnered worldwide condemnation.

Sorry, skippy. We're not buying your "collateral damage" and "accidental" crock sh!t anymore.

[Etienne]

superskippy wrote: Theres a difference between a missed shot and intentionally blowing up a bus. One is a murder the other is an accident, the militants and terrorists in the territories bring the suffering to the Palestinians, it is not our intention to harm them.

Israeli Security Forces must miss a lot. Missiles must not be very accurate. Perhaps Israel should refrain from using them in civilian populated areas?

[superskippy]

Its hard not to hit civilians most of the time since the terrorists and militants keep their bases in refugee camps and in urban areas. They use it as a shield and we refuse to let them. They did the same thing in Lebanon it hasnt changed.

Quote: Yeah, skippy, thousands and thousands of Palestinian non-combatants died because of accident

Thousands and thousands? The total non-combatants we are responsable for killing barely peaks past 1,000 if at all.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: Its hard not to hit civilians most of the time since the terrorists and militants keep their bases in refugee camps and in urban areas. They use it as a shield and we refuse to let them. They did the same thing in Lebanon it hasnt changed.

Quote: Yeah, skippy, thousands and thousands of Palestinian non-combatants died because of accident

Thousands and thousands? The total non-combatants we are responsable for killing barely peaks past 1,000 if at all.

And still the more Palestinian civilians get killed I doubt that they did the same thing in Lebanon when the Israelis shelled Qana and brutally killed off many civilians, as well as their support and partaking in the Sabra and Chatila massacres. Ever since that time, more Palestinian (and Lebanese, if you count the civil war) civilians have died at the hands of the Israelis, who also bombarded Beirut with missiles and artillery fire. It was quite known at that time that the Israelis did so. Also, some of the combatants that you mention are also rock throwers and people who resist the IDF oncomers, and thus they are labelled combatants. Moreover, most civilians were killed out not just in their homes, but out in the open, where no militants are around. That tells you something: the Israeli "Defense" Force does indeed target civilians. And don't forget: the reason Hamas "responds" is because of the purported deaths of innocent civlians.

Source wrote: Various grievances and social stressors can contribute to the formation of terrorist groups. For example, poverty, unemployment, epidemics, and criminality often lead to social instability, which provides fertile ground for terrorist activity. Over-population, socioeconomic struggle, and a lack of professional opportunities can also produce a sense of rage, powerlessness, and resentment among the populace.

Disaffected individuals and/or groups may perceive the world as treating them harshly and unjustly. In some cases, there are indeed genuine causes for grievance and a sense of group persecution. The move from being a disaffected individual to a violent extremist is usually facilitated by some catalyst event. [16] In most cases it is an act of extreme violence committed against the individual, family or friends by those in authority or by some rival group. Research findings indicate that most suicide bombers have had at least one of their loved ones killed or severely harmed at the hands of their enemies. Many of them join terrorist groups in an angry and vengeful state of mind with the intent to take part in aggressive acts. They are rarely coerced into it.

In fact, many suicide bombers may view themselves as soldiers engaged in a war. Casualties are then seen as the regrettable but inevitable consequence of fighting for one's just cause. It is not that they are bloodthirsty or that they enjoy killing civilians, but rather that they believe these missions are the only way to fight for their cause. Although the realization that terrorists view themselves as soldiers engaged in a just war does not legitimize their cause or methods, it does provide some insight into their psychology and motivation. It suggests that their psychology is similar to that displayed by combatants in other conflicts, and that suicide bombers view themselves as soldiers or warriors reacting to the provocative abuses and injustices of others. [17] According to this line of thinking, suicide bombing is a matter of fighting back against unjust political or economic policies, authoritarian governments, and structural violence.

Some argue that the global economic order contributes to groups' sense that they have been wronged. Michael Stevens (2002), for example, argues that globalization contributes to the creation of sociocultural and psychosocial conditions from which terrorism is more likely to emerge. [18] The West has exported its economic, political, and cultural systems with little regard as to how they might be received. While globalization has no doubt generated wealth, it has also produced economic inequality, threats to language and community, and support for oppressive regimes. Many believe that it has also contributed to the uprooting of traditional values and customs. These unanticipated costs may continue to generate hostility among those harmed, humiliated, or left behind by the new world order

This is a good analysis and explains that suicide bombers are motivated for a reason.

[lowchen]

The_Right_Honourable wrote: Sure the Jews have had a rough time. But please shut up with this anti-semitism crap!

Muslims hate Jews for Palestine. Whereas i just find Israelis idiots and fools.

Jews have a real persecution complex as shown by what happened to the Mayor of London, Ken Livingston.

Why cant you call a Jew a Nazi? Are Jews exempt from being evil?

Suicide bombers are cowardly scum. But as far as im concerned Israel is the hand of its own suffering.

Being non-religious and anti-nationalist i see their claims for a right to the land as senseless. Be practical and deal with Hamas. There is no other way.

well said. show me a group that has NOT been persecuted....enough of the victim game.

[superskippy]

Quote: nd still the more Palestinian civilians get killed I doubt that they did the same thing in Lebanon when the Israelis shelled Qana and brutally killed off many civilians, as well as their support and partaking in the Sabra and Chatila massacres.

The Qana shelling should have had no civilian losses, but the villagers had fled there after fighting erupted between us and militants across the border.

Whereas the PLO deployed its base in Beirut turning the city into a fortress and littered villages around the countryside with their troops and used them as battlegrounds to force us to reduce our heavy artillary and airpower.

Quote: Also, some of the combatants that you mention are also rock throwers and people who resist the IDF oncomers, and thus they are labelled combatants.

The combatants list is a list of people who have borne arms against Israel. I'm not certain if rock throwers are catagorized as such, but once you take up violence against a military force you become a combatant. In any case the vast bulk are militants and I beleive it only refers to militants.

Quote: Moreover, most civilians were killed out not just in their homes, but out in the open, where no militants are around.

Not really, the vast vast bulk of them are killed when in proximity to an artillary blast or missile fire. A tragic but collateral casualty and the lack of intent makes it a lack of murder as is so often claimed.

Quote: And don't forget: the reason Hamas "responds" is because of the purported deaths of innocent civlians.

That isnt why they attack and you know it, their own charter advocates attacks on us for the mere reason that Israel exists. They are a ravenous terrible terrorist organization. Heres a quaint peaceful mention from their charter: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."



Also I ask you, why dont the suicide bombers strike at soldiers? Surely that fights the occupation more then some guy on a bus?

[Etienne]

Superskippy...

More Palestinian Non-Combatants have been killed than Israeli Non-Combatants. More Palestinian children under the age of 12 have been killed than Israeli children under the age of 12.

Does this mean anything to you? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering?

[Yrkoon]

DavidXV wrote:
Check it out a picture of an evil zionist occupier:



You can tell she's guilty just look at that smirk on her face, she is probably plotting to overthrow the entire world right now.

Oh OUCH. Good point.

Now check out this picture of an evil Nazi American Scum:



And this one:



Clearly, Israel was just defending itself, its existance and indeed all of the Jewish race when it decided to Mow Her Down.

But forget about Corrie. Forget about that 12 year old boy cowering in the corner, too. Forget about Sabra and Shatila, and Qana and Dir Yassin. Ignore the Jewish terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel by the very same terrorists who would later become Prime Ministers of the Jewish state. Lets just dismiss, as irrelevant, the 65 UN Resolutions against Israel.

Instead, lets just focus on 1 single crime. 1 single act of war committed by Israel against the United States of America: The 75-Minute, air and sea bombing of the USS Liberty. From an objective point of view, I want to know why, instead of regime-changing Israel, we have since formed a troublesome, expensive alliance which has repeatedly damaged our middle east interests. Is it because we feel guilty and responsible and sorry for the plight of the jewish people over the centuries which you have so diligently outlined for us? If so, Israeli actions against the US don't seem to be a fitting thank you for our decades of aid and protection. Perhaps we should demand more.

[Yrkoon]

superskippy wrote:
The Qana shelling should have had no civilian losses, but the villagers had fled there after fighting erupted between us and militants across the border.

The Qana shelling took place in an established, and recognized by both sides, Civilian safe house Marked and run by the UN. In other words, these civilians were *literally* and responsibly removing themselves from the war zone. That Israel decided to shell an established *neutral* *civilian safe house* is yet another violation of the Geneva conventions, of which Israel is a signatory.

[Yrkoon]

superskippy wrote:

Whereas the PLO deployed its base in Beirut turning the city into a fortress and littered villages around the countryside with their troops and used them as battlegrounds to force us to reduce our heavy artillary and airpower.


Interesting argument. What are your thoughts on the strategic placement of the Jewish settlements? Do you see the settlements as a buffer zone in a war between the Palestinians and the Israelies?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: That is kinda interesting isn't it, that I post about the prevalent persecution and targeting of the Jews throughout history and the responce is "evil zionist occupiers"

Yes, that's very interesting. People are crazy as can be, aren't they?

If there is any type of conspiracy I would say it is one against the existence of Israel. It has a pretty decent propaganda machine too.