Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The really tragic thing is that all sort of criticism towards Izrael, or Jews genarally is de facto not allowed.

You mean like the criticism that the Jewish conspiracy is using Hollywood to divide and conquer the US?

:lol: The fact is even this kind of tripe is allowed. But obviously not very many people are going to agree that it is true.

[venator]

superskippy wrote: Quote: I concur. The really tragic thing is that all sort of criticism towards Izrael, or Jews genarally is de facto not allowed. One would be labelled antisemite, nazi etc. - and indeed I have a feeling that such labelling itself is an act of racism towards gentiles as such.

Which is in reality a myth that has it's roots from arguments from the Neo Nazi's of the early 1990's and people like David Duke, if it were so easily quashed and suppressed the massive criticism and negative policies towards my country would not exist.


There u see; u answered my statement by stressing the fact that such thinking "has it's roots from arguments from the Neo Nazi's of the early 1990's" ; thus giving the false 'suggestion' that I have sth in common with such people... Typical.

superskippy wrote:
venator wrote: Also I wonder how the younger generations of Jews are going to change the future when since childhood they are indoctrinated that they are the 'chosen people'.

Indoctrined that we are the chosen people eh? We are indoctrined with our faith. I ask you how many Jews have you ever met that have claimed superiority because god decided to grace us with the Torah and his Convent? Which is why we are called the chosen people, it's not because of some beleif of superiority, its because God gave us the Torah and his graced us with his blessing and the convent between us and God.

It is a deeply religous matter that has been twisted for millenia by people who have tormented us or used it as a pretext for such torment.


For centuries it was ure faith that has guided u and made it possible to survive against all the odds and despite being unwelcome wherever (well, almost - The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was an exception perhaps) u were. Thus dont tell me that there is a clear distinction between faith and Izraeli identity nowadays. Furthermore, with the creation of the Izraeli state some of these theological theories/doctrines/believes were used to strengthen the nationalistic character of its citizens. It so happens that some of my friends (that currently work in some Kibbutz in Izrael) were the ones who 'enlightened' me of all this. Thus ure argumentation that suggests me repeating what 'the people that have tormented u used as a pretext for millenia' is not convincing at all. My statement concerns the current situation - not the past...

superskippy wrote:
venator wrote: They are given an extremely biased account on modern history (of the creation of Izrael etc.). Obviously some strong individuality would have to arise to change this situation and the Izraeli society as such.

Or rather it is that we have been given an account of our own factual history.

Yes, there naturally are no stains in Izraeli history... ;)


I should have known that I would resurrect this topic... :lol:

[venator]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The really tragic thing is that all sort of criticism towards Izrael, or Jews genarally is de facto not allowed.

You mean like the criticism that the Jewish conspiracy is using Hollywood to divide and conquer the US?

:lol: The fact is even this kind of tripe is allowed. But obviously not very many people are going to agree that it is true.

yeah exactly... :lol:

[superskippy]

Quote: There u see; u answered my statement by stressing the fact that such thinking "has it's roots from arguments from the Neo Nazi's of the early 1990's" ; thus giving the false 'suggestion' that I have sth in common with such people... Typical.

:roll:

I was simply listing the root of the beleif that criticism of Israel is now allowed. Since it obviously is and is a driving force in many nations and we have much criticism around the world.

Quote: For centuries it was ure faith that has guided u and made it possible to survive against all the odds and despite being unwelcome wherever (well, almost - The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was an exception perhaps) u were. Thus dont tell me that there is a clear distinction between faith and Izraeli identity nowadays. Furthermore, with the creation of the Izraeli state some of these theological theories/doctrines/believes were used to strengthen the nationalistic character of its citizens. It so happens that some of my friends (that currently work in some Kibbutz in Izrael) were the ones who 'enlightened' me of all this. Thus ure argumentation that suggests me repeating what 'the people that have tormented u used as a pretext for millenia' is not convincing at all. My statement concerns the current situation - not the past...

You didnt respond to what I said in the slightest. I defined what the term Chosen People meant, it is a holy convent with God, and the blessing of being granted his laws and the Torah. You have gone on a tirade about identity and past history in comparison to the modern day which is nothing to what the point you made. You choose to ignore that basic definition and thus the end and beggining of my argument. I repeat, it refers to our Convent with almighty God, and the blessing that we received his laws and the Torah. Your question and really I might add statement "Also I wonder how the younger generations of Jews are going to change the future when since childhood they are indoctrinated that they are the 'chosen people'. " Thus does not make sense as aforementioned Chosen People is a religous reference, not a social or political one. Except perhaps for the crazy Haredi, though even they dont view it that way I beleive.

That's what Chosen People means and by definition of what it means and the context that you have tried to display it you are wrong outright.

If your going to use a deeply religous part of my faith in your arguments at least know what it means before using it out of context, I suggest going to the Religion forums to study up if thats your intent. I beleive Saracen would say the same thing of someone misused a deeply religous part of his faith.

Quote: Yes, there naturally are no stains in Izraeli history...

Au Contraire, we have Dier Yassin on our hands, the tradgedy at Qibya, we have Qana another great tragedy, as well as the places where we did expel the Palestinians, and other actions during the 1948 war, as well as other events

Of course we have stains, and some of the bloody stains at that, but the accusations leveled against us time and time again such as our total plan for expulsion, or constant massacres of Palestinians, planning to conquer everything in 1967, the wild accusations leveled against us from 1982, the implication of Sharon for his role as a scapegoat for Sabra and Shatilla, Are utter bulls**t.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: Of course we have stains, and some of the bloody stains at that, but the accusations leveled against us time and time again such as our total plan for expulsion, or constant massacres of Palestinians, planning to conquer everything in 1967, the wild accusations leveled against us from 1982, the implication of Sharon for his role as a scapegoat for Sabra and Shatilla, Are utter bulls**t.

I beg to differ, since we discussed it and decided not to delve into this matter anymore.

[venator]

superskippy wrote: Quote: There u see; u answered my statement by stressing the fact that such thinking "has it's roots from arguments from the Neo Nazi's of the early 1990's" ; thus giving the false 'suggestion' that I have sth in common with such people... Typical.

:roll:

I was simply listing the root of the beleif that criticism of Israel is now allowed. Since it obviously is and is a driving force in many nations and we have much criticism around the world.

Quote: For centuries it was ure faith that has guided u and made it possible to survive against all the odds and despite being unwelcome wherever (well, almost - The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was an exception perhaps) u were. Thus dont tell me that there is a clear distinction between faith and Izraeli identity nowadays. Furthermore, with the creation of the Izraeli state some of these theological theories/doctrines/believes were used to strengthen the nationalistic character of its citizens. It so happens that some of my friends (that currently work in some Kibbutz in Izrael) were the ones who 'enlightened' me of all this. Thus ure argumentation that suggests me repeating what 'the people that have tormented u used as a pretext for millenia' is not convincing at all. My statement concerns the current situation - not the past...

You didnt respond to what I said in the slightest. I defined what the term Chosen People meant, it is a holy convent with God, and the blessing of being granted his laws and the Torah. You have gone on a tirade about identity and past history in comparison to the modern day which is nothing to what the point you made. You choose to ignore that basic definition and thus the end and beggining of my argument. I repeat, it refers to our Convent with almighty God, and the blessing that we received his laws and the Torah. Your question and really I might add statement "Also I wonder how the younger generations of Jews are going to change the future when since childhood they are indoctrinated that they are the 'chosen people'. " Thus does not make sense as aforementioned Chosen People is a religous reference, not a social or political one. Except perhaps for the crazy Haredi, though even they dont view it that way I beleive.

That's what Chosen People means and by definition of what it means and the context that you have tried to display it you are wrong outright.

If your going to use a deeply religous part of my faith in your arguments at least know what it means before using it out of context, I suggest going to the Religion forums to study up if thats your intent. I beleive Saracen would say the same thing of someone misused a deeply religous part of his faith.

Quote: Yes, there naturally are no stains in Izraeli history...

Au Contraire, we have Dier Yassin on our hands, the tradgedy at Qibya, we have Qana another great tragedy, as well as the places where we did expel the Palestinians, and other actions during the 1948 war, as well as other events

Of course we have stains, and some of the bloody stains at that, but the accusations leveled against us time and time again such as our total plan for expulsion, or constant massacres of Palestinians, planning to conquer everything in 1967, the wild accusations leveled against us from 1982, the implication of Sharon for his role as a scapegoat for Sabra and Shatilla, Are utter bulls**t.

Well, oviously we have a problem reading oneanothers statements... ;)

1. The "chosen people" issue- naturally there is no accusation from my side against the religious aspect of 'what' is meant by 'chosen people'. Indeed the definition is as u presented it. However, my point is that with the creation of the Izraeli state and the natural need of elements 'bonding' together a common national identity - this element (the 'chosen people') was forged into what is known as the Izraeli identity today; thus the religious aspect was has somewhat diminished. And it is here were the problem lies...That is exactly what I wrote previously btw.

2. History issue. Well, u are bold to admitting these stains. Its a pity not many of my Jewish friends do. According to them its all the muslims and Arabs that were the agressors. But then again, they might be an exception... (I hope so at least).

:roll:

[Parmenides]

20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.
Jews put all of their energies towards helping the world by advancing science and diplomatic relations. You can't argue against that. Those are cold, hard facts. And also, the Muslims only deserve 6. Yasser Arafat won a Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accords, but he broke the treaty.

[Saracen]

Parmenides wrote: 20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.

Basing it on Nobel Prizes alone is not a good argument. Whether or not Jews and Muslims win Nobel Prizes does not mean that all Muslims are bloodthirsty and that Jews are good. I think you should realize that most of the world's Muslims, regardless of how many thousands you see on TV, are peaceful and normal people.

Quote: Jews put all of their energies towards helping the world by advancing science and diplomatic relations. You can't argue against that. Those are cold, hard facts. And also, the Muslims only deserve 6. Yasser Arafat won a Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accords, but he broke the treaty.

The only fact you mentioned is how many Jews and Muslims won Nobel Prizes. Other than that, I'm calling bullsh!T. Muslims and Jews are both good people in general and neither have the energy to kill or maim as a whole. If what you were saying is true, then all the 1.4 BILLION Muslims in the world would kill and maim, which is not happening at all.

[psholtz]

DavidXV wrote: Whenever a nazi group, no matter what they call themselves, targets the Jews for hatecrimes I beleive it is the responsibility of a Superpower to snuf out the Hitler leader of the nazi group and all the nazi followers of the Hitler.
This is an extremely odd definition of the word "superpower"..

A superpower is that nation state which is responsible for exterminating anyone and anything that opposes the Jews.

Is that what you're trying to say? :?

[psholtz]

Parmenides wrote: 20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.
The day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel "Peace" Prize was the day that Nobel Prizes ceased to have any serious (at all) on this planet.

[Saracen]

psholtz wrote: Parmenides wrote: 20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.
The day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel "Peace" Prize was the day that Nobel Prizes ceased to have any serious (at all) on this planet.

Damn straight.

[venator]

Parmenides wrote: 20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.
Jews put all of their energies towards helping the world by advancing science and diplomatic relations. You can't argue against that. Those are cold, hard facts. And also, the Muslims only deserve 6. Yasser Arafat won a Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accords, but he broke the treaty.

So by ure way of thinking Christians are the smartest people? After all they are the majority of the Noble prize winners...

Parmenides, statistics are just statistics - and they do NOT prove anything...

:-|

[Skufr]

venator wrote:
So by ure way of thinking Christians are the smartest people? After all they are the majority of the Noble prize winners...

Parmenides, statistics are just statistics - and they do NOT prove anything...

:-|

It doesn't prove who's smartest. But it does show how Islamic ideology creates backwardness.

[mulberrymagnet]

Parmenides wrote: 20.12% of the people in the world are Muslims and they have one only 7 Nobel prizes. 0.23% of the people in the world are Jews and they have won 128 Nobel prizes. This shows where the different groups priorities lie. Muslims put all of their energies towards killing innocent women and children.
Jews put all of their energies towards helping the world by advancing science and diplomatic relations. You can't argue against that. Those are cold, hard facts. And also, the Muslims only deserve 6. Yasser Arafat won a Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accords, but he broke the treaty.

Don't be crass. This couldn't have anything to do with the fact that most Muslim countries are newly emerging and developing could it? With that in mind, it has been oft suggested that do$h, influence and fame are more important than actual achievements in the process of deciding who is awarded the prize. Remember when Henry Kissinger won the peace prize for bringing peace to Vietnam, though the War there didn't end for another two years? HELLO??

[Jehan]

psholtz wrote: The day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel "Peace" Prize was the day that Nobel Prizes ceased to have any serious (at all) on this planet.

Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize? :lol:

I'm not belittling you there. I just find it genuinely amusing.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The really tragic thing is that all sort of criticism towards Izrael, or Jews genarally is de facto not allowed.

If it were not allowed there wouldn't not be so many badly spelled posts criticizing Israel on this and many other political forums.

How anyone can make such a claim while freely criticisizing Israel in a public forum is beyond me.

Quote: The day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel "Peace" Prize was the day that Nobel Prizes ceased to have any serious (at all) on this planet.

I would say the day that Yasser Arafat, a guy who has beaten people (fellow Palestinians, no less) to death with a baseball bat while they were hanging by their ankles on a rope, had a lot more to do with it.

[venator]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The really tragic thing is that all sort of criticism towards Izrael, or Jews genarally is de facto not allowed.

If it were not allowed there wouldn't not be so many badly spelled posts criticizing Israel on this and many other political forums.

How anyone can make such a claim while freely criticisizing Israel in a public forum is beyond me.


Read the posts more carefully. Of course its allowed, but once u do - u are singled out, punished with infamy, labelled etc. In that sense not many people can afford to criticise Izrael/Jews.

To give u an idea of what I am saying; it had to take such authors like Finkelstein and (Holocaust industry) or Sack (An eye for eye) - Jews themselves - to criticise other Jews. Would a non-Jew write these books - he would be labelled an antisemite or Nazi.

Another example is the political correctness here in western Europe that does not allow us to criticise Izrael for its policies. In Germany for instance a socialist parliamentarian was forced to draw back his critique of Izrael and apologize. Then we have the limitations of free speach (like the thing with jailing that idiot Irving). Then there was that Ken Livingstone incident...

That was my point...

:-|

[superskippy]

Not really. Name a person who has labeled you an Anti-Semite in this thread.

Has Saracen been labeled an Anti-Semite?

Criticism exits, it is a myth that it is quashed in the manner you describe.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel "Peace" Prize was the day that Nobel Prizes ceased to have any serious (at all) on this planet.

I would say the day that Yasser Arafat, a guy who has beaten people (fellow Palestinians, no less) to death with a baseball bat while they were hanging by their ankles on a rope, had a lot more to do with it.
That's a beautiful Hegelian/Marxist dialectic way of responding.. Kissinger this, Arafat that. I find it amusing that you're so quick to label others as "Marxists", w/o even understanding what the word means yourself. However, in this case, you may have a point.. Arafat winning the Nobel Prize doesn't help much, nor does Jimmy Carter's award (nor do the awards given to pretty much anyone else). All these men are great criminals (although neither Carter nor Arafat are anywhere near as savage and murderous as Kissinger is).

However, both these awards (Carter and/or Arafat) came after Kissinger's.. My point is that Kissinger's award really set the standard for just how absurd and ridiculous the Nobel Prize committee really is.. Not only is Kissinger the greatest mass murderer in the post-Hitler/Stalin era, but he "won" his Nobel Prize in 1973 for "ending" the Vietnam War.

Students of history will notice that the Vietnam War did not end until 1975.

Absurdity at its finest..

Anyone who uses Nobel Prize count as a standard of "intelligence" or "excellence" is even more laughable than the Nobel Prize Committee itself.

[psholtz]

superskippy wrote: Not really. Name a person who has labeled you an Anti-Semite in this thread.

Has Saracen been labeled an Anti-Semite?

Criticism exits, it is a myth that it is quashed in the manner you describe.
If that's true, then let's start exploring this term "anti-Semite" that you love to use, shall we?

For starters, you do realize that the term (at least, here in the English language) is utterly inaccurate and misleading? At least 95% (probably much more) of all Semites are non-Jewish Arabs. To say that someone is "anti-Semite" would suggest that that person has a dislike for non-Jewish Arabs..

Yet, that's not how you're using that term, is it?

Words mean things.