Political Crossfire Forums

[John Galt]

Italian Panel: Soviets Behind Pope Attack

By VICTOR L. SIMPSON
Associated Press Writer

ROME

An Italian parliamentary commission concluded "beyond any reasonable doubt" that the Soviet Union was behind the 1981 attempt to kill Pope John Paul II _ a theory long alleged but never proved, according to a draft report made available Thursday.

The commission held that the pope was a danger to the Soviet bloc because of his support for the Solidarity labor movement in his native Poland. Solidarity was the first free trade union in communist eastern Europe.

"This commission believes, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the leaders of the Soviet Union took the initiative to eliminate the pope Karol Wojtyla," said a draft of the commission's report obtained by The Associated Press. Wojtyla was John Paul's Polish name.

The draft has no bearing on any judicial investigations, which have long been closed. If the commission approves the report in its final form, that would mark the first time an official body had blamed the Soviet Union for shooting John Paul.

The Italian report said Soviet military intelligence _ and not the KGB _ was responsible. In Russia, Foreign Intelligence Service spokesman Boris Labusov called the accusation "absurd."

"All assertions of any kind of participation in the attempt on the pope's life by Soviet special services, including foreign intelligence, are completely absurd," he said, according to the Interfax news agency.

In 1991, then-Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev denied KGB complicity in the shooting.

The report also said a photograph shows that a Bulgarian man acquitted of involvement in the May 13, 1981, assassination attempt was in St. Peter's Square when the pontiff was shot by Mehmet Ali Agca.

The Bulgarian secret service allegedly was working for Soviet military intelligence, but the Italian court held that the evidence was insufficient to convict the Bulgarians in the plot.

Agca, a Turk, has changed his story often and investigators said it was never clear who he was working for. He initially blamed the Soviets.

Agca served 19 years in an Italian prison for shooting the pope and then 5 1/2 years in Turkey for murdering journalist Abdi Ipekci.

He was released from the Turkish prison Jan. 12 but returned days later when prosecutors said he must serve more of his 10-year term for killing Ipekci. He will be released in 2010.

The Italian commission was originally established to investigate any KGB penetration of Italy during the Cold War.

The commission president, Sen. Paolo Guzzanti, said he decided to investigate the 1981 shooting after John Paul said in his book "Memory and Identity: Conversations Between Millenniums" that "someone else planned it, someone else commissioned it." The book came out shortly before the pope's death last year.

The report said the commission used all the evidence gathered during trials in Italy as well as information given by French anti-terrorism judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere.

Sergei Antonov, former Rome station manager of Bulgaria's state airline, claimed during his trial that he was in his office when John Paul was shot. Italy had accused him of complicity with Agca.

Antonov's lawyer, Giuseppe Consolo, said it was a case of mistaken identity and the man in the photograph came forward during the investigation as an American tourist of Hungarian origin. Consolo said the photo was not used as evidence in the trial.

Guzzanti said the photo was discarded because the technology of the time could not determine whether it showed Antonov, but recent computer comparisons with other shots of the Bulgarian show "there is a 100 percent compatibility."

"We don't believe it's possible to reopen the case against Antonov," Guzzanti told the AP. "We just want to set the record straight."

The report must be approved by the full commission, which meets March 7.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/02/D8G3J3J00.html

[Angela]

sorry but that commission is a joke, or worse a farce it was established by the current government as an attempt to delegitimate the opposition (I think it’s a world premiere usually parliamentary commissions are required by the opposition) unfortunately for the government it backfired and now a month before general elections they’re trying to save their faces with improbable revelations. So I wouldn’t trust their so called conclusion, especially when there have been many trials about what happened. BTW the commission’s president is a joke on his own, a left extremist that in the 70’s accused the communist party to be too moderate turned in a equally rabid right wing extremist.

BTW it haven't even hit the news in Italy that should tell something about the credibility of that commission

[Saracen]

Angela wrote: sorry but that commission is a joke, or worse a farce it was established by the current government as an attempt to delegitimate the opposition (I think it’s a world premiere usually parliamentary commissions are required by the opposition) unfortunately for the government it backfired and now a month before general elections they’re trying to save their faces with improbable revelations. So I wouldn’t trust their so called conclusion, especially when there have been many trials about what happened. BTW the commission’s president is a joke on his own, a left extremist that in the 70’s accused the communist party to be too moderate turned in a equally rabid right wing extremist.

Well-said. :tu: It sounds a lot like those who blamed Iran for the recent attacks in Iraq, whereas in fact it was Iranian independents who were living in Iraq. It's equally as stupid as well when the Iranian president accused the U.S. and Israel for bombing that shrine a week ago... was it a week ago? Anyways, what happened here is a diversion of the blame. Some people can't take it or can't believe that a said group did X, so they start throwing accusations themselves at other groups. It's just sickening that people do this. It makes them less manly than anything else IMHO.

[jeechoscopy]

Another country is going to be blackmailed…
I'm sure Russia will keep supporting the civilian nuclear program of Iran.

[Saracen]

jeechoscopy wrote: Another country is going to be blackmailed…
I'm sure Russia will keep supporting the civilian nuclear program of Iran.

What are talking about? You're going off-topic. This is the Pope we're talking about, not Iran.

[John Galt]

Well Angela it has been for years widley suspected and even accepted that the Communists were trying to take out the Pope and were behind the attempt on John Paul's life.

[Angela]

I'm not denying there could have been the USSR behind the pope attack (although I find it highly improbable too much risk for too little gain, and Soviets have always been highly rational in those matters). But surely it won’t be such a commission to bring up the truth about what happened. Courts have been inquiring about the pope attack for 25 years and suddenly in a matter of few months a commission with very little investigative support and completely different competences cleared all the doubts? And please the GRU (military intelligence) and not the KGB would have planned and executed that? :lol: perhaps because Belusconi’s (Italian PM) new best friend Putin had an high level role in the KGB at the time?

[venator]

Angela wrote: I'm not denying there could have been the USSR behind the pope attack


There is no doubt that the USSR was indirectly responsible for the assasination attempt. As intelligence archives are being opened in ex-communist countries new evidence makes it clear that KGB, Stazi and the Rumanian services played a role in the event.

Angela wrote: (although I find it highly improbable too much risk for too little gain, and Soviets have always been highly rational in those matters).


Yes, the Soviets were highly rational in those (and other matters). This is especially true when they tried to deploy nuclear warheads in Cuba... ;) right?

Angela wrote:
But surely it won’t be such a commission to bring up the truth about what happened. Courts have been inquiring about the pope attack for 25 years and suddenly in a matter of few months a commission with very little investigative support and completely different competences cleared all the doubts? And please the GRU (military intelligence) and not the KGB would have planned and executed that? :lol: perhaps because Belusconi’s (Italian PM) new best friend Putin had an high level role in the KGB at the time?

Agreed, politics in Italy have gone wild lately... ;)


Having said that I wouldnt underestimate JP2 role in overthrowing communism in the Eastern European countries (and later the USSR). His charisma and strength gave hope to the millions oppressed under the communist regimes, and his pilgrimage to his native Poland in June 1979 was the event that gave the nation strength to form the first independant movement in communist Europe - Solidarity. With "Solidarity" established the dismantling of the Iron Curtain began...





Some basic info links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarno%C5%9B%C4%87

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II

[jeechoscopy]

Saracen wrote: jeechoscopy wrote: Another country is going to be blackmailed…I'm sure Russia will keep supporting the civilian nuclear program of Iran.

What are talking about? You're going off-topic. This is the Pope we're talking about, not Iran.

The bold line is what related to the topic... as Russia is blamed...
second line is my personal view... that's still on the topic...

[MoscowMatt]

venator wrote: Angela wrote: I'm not denying there could have been the USSR behind the pope attack


There is no doubt that the USSR was indirectly responsible for the assasination attempt. As intelligence archives are being opened in ex-communist countries new evidence makes it clear that KGB, Stazi and the Rumanian services played a role in the event.

Angela wrote: (although I find it highly improbable too much risk for too little gain, and Soviets have always been highly rational in those matters).


Yes, the Soviets were highly rational in those (and other matters). This is especially true when they tried to deploy nuclear warheads in Cuba... ;) right?

Angela wrote:
But surely it won’t be such a commission to bring up the truth about what happened. Courts have been inquiring about the pope attack for 25 years and suddenly in a matter of few months a commission with very little investigative support and completely different competences cleared all the doubts? And please the GRU (military intelligence) and not the KGB would have planned and executed that? :lol: perhaps because Belusconi’s (Italian PM) new best friend Putin had an high level role in the KGB at the time?

Agreed, politics in Italy have gone wild lately... ;)


Having said that I wouldnt underestimate JP2 role in overthrowing communism in the Eastern European countries (and later the USSR). His charisma and strength gave hope to the millions oppressed under the communist regimes, and his pilgrimage to his native Poland in June 1979 was the event that gave the nation strength to form the first independant movement in communist Europe - Solidarity. With "Solidarity" established the dismantling of the Iron Curtain began...


Hmmm Can't really see what the Russians thought they could gain by assassinating the pope.

As for the bit about them wanting to put missiles in Cuba, I think both sides were guilty of maneuvering weapons and forces around the globe in an attempt to intimidate the other, not just Russia. The only reason the Cuban issue ended up being a crisis is that the Americans threw their toys out the pram about it.

[Alula]

So what you can't put the USSR on trial they don't exist. It would be considered Double Jeopardy anyway.

[venator]

MoscowMatt wrote: venator wrote: Angela wrote: I'm not denying there could have been the USSR behind the pope attack


There is no doubt that the USSR was indirectly responsible for the assasination attempt. As intelligence archives are being opened in ex-communist countries new evidence makes it clear that KGB, Stazi and the Rumanian services played a role in the event.

Angela wrote: (although I find it highly improbable too much risk for too little gain, and Soviets have always been highly rational in those matters).


Yes, the Soviets were highly rational in those (and other matters). This is especially true when they tried to deploy nuclear warheads in Cuba... ;) right?

Angela wrote:
But surely it won’t be such a commission to bring up the truth about what happened. Courts have been inquiring about the pope attack for 25 years and suddenly in a matter of few months a commission with very little investigative support and completely different competences cleared all the doubts? And please the GRU (military intelligence) and not the KGB would have planned and executed that? :lol: perhaps because Belusconi’s (Italian PM) new best friend Putin had an high level role in the KGB at the time?

Agreed, politics in Italy have gone wild lately... ;)


Having said that I wouldnt underestimate JP2 role in overthrowing communism in the Eastern European countries (and later the USSR). His charisma and strength gave hope to the millions oppressed under the communist regimes, and his pilgrimage to his native Poland in June 1979 was the event that gave the nation strength to form the first independant movement in communist Europe - Solidarity. With "Solidarity" established the dismantling of the Iron Curtain began...


Hmmm Can't really see what the Russians thought they could gain by assassinating the pope.

As for the bit about them wanting to put missiles in Cuba, I think both sides were guilty of maneuvering weapons and forces around the globe in an attempt to intimidate the other, not just Russia. The only reason the Cuban issue ended up being a crisis is that the Americans threw their toys out the pram about it.

1. Not Russians - the Soviet camp.
2. What would they gain? - Well, they would have one problem less. JP2 was partially responsible for the inner deintegration of the Soviet Camp (i.e. the USSR and its sattelite states).
3. The Cuba issue - I just wanted to stress that the USSR wasnt always rational when acting in certain situations. Indeed, the US has a similar record...

;)

[venator]

Alula wrote: So what you can't put the USSR on trial they don't exist. It would be considered Double Jeopardy anyway.

True, its more of a historical dispute really...

[Alula]

I see so a point would be why didn't his book with these fact come out until.
he was near death. John Paul II. By assasinating Pope John Paul many Calothic's wich have nothing in his I mean John Paul's country would loose faith in their man. Probably so thought the KGB. People from all over the world loved I mean adored Pope John Paul II because he was so political.
Even outspoken when other people in the church where afraid to say things
he wasn't. I could see why. Its his importance. and Reverence.

[Dark Archangel]

This is very tragic.

[Ex SEAL]

boohoo pope got shot ya I'm 25 years late but teh soviets didn't do it they got bigger fish to fry it was probably the mifia trying to intimidate the public not assasinate the pope,the soviets got bigger fish to fry. :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

[Cheney's Shotgun]

Ex SEAL wrote: boohoo pope got shot ya I'm 25 years late but teh soviets didn't do it they got bigger fish to fry it was probably the mifia trying to intimidate the public not assasinate the pope,the soviets got bigger fish to fry. :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

You idiot! The Soviets would try to kill the pope because he is a big social and religious figure! Millions of people all over the world, mostly Westerners , would mourn and the Soviets would use that to make fun of the Westerners.

[IlVespa]

It's the first topic for me.

I'll make things clear. There are no farce-commissions in our parliament. Our country IS NOT a dictatorship and PM Berlusconi does NOT bother with the tempted assassination of JP2. Although many Italians have interest in make you trust the contrary.
The commission is the highly trustful "Commissione d'Inchiesta sul dossier Mitrokhin" You can find ALL the related infos here: http://www.parlamento.it/Bicamerali/2/sommariobicamerali.htm
if you understand Italian, obviously. It is NOT true that italian Medias did not care of the news. The most important political show, "Porta a Porta" (I don't comment about the show but IT'S the most viewed) dedicated an entire evening about the querelle. The president of the commission is a famous and honorable journalist. It's true, he was a fervent communist in the 70's, as the quite entire youth of the universities in those years. However, you may find some infos about him here
http://www.senato.it/leg/14/BGT/Schede/Attsen/00017582.htm
(site of italian senate)
I don't know if the KGB or the GRU or the Bulgarians or the STASI, but I know that the STASI officer Wolff did clearly admit they were involved. Their duty was (as usual) to control the operations of the Bulgarian Secret Services (usually used by KGB as low-skilled jobforce) and to cover the entire operation by diversion to the western SS. Wolff declared this during "Porta a Porta". The unique voice raising against this thesis was this: the advocate of one of the Bulgarians (i warn you that there had been a process by italian authorities, finished with all the Bulgarians discharged)., actually a deputate of Alleanza Nazionale, right-winged party part of Berlusconi's coalition (so it is NOT a political problem).
To note also that Wolf told they (STASI) had a spy in the Vatican City (an Augustinian father) and for the first time he revealed the name of one of his spies. Don't know what to believe, history will light on also this part of the USSR history, but it was confirmed that the order came directly from the Brezhnev staff, in the Kremlin.
Trust what you want, but now you have a more complete portrait of the affair. I love Truth.

[SilveryMinnow]

Dark Archangel wrote: This is very tragic.

That you, Snake?