Political Crossfire Forums

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Let's say, for sake of argument, that being Gay is a genetic/physical attribute (disease if you will) like cancer. We all have known or heard of God curing cancer in people (rather it be a unexplained miracle or with doctors & treatment). One would think think that being gay can be cured as well. But we have also heard about people who have asked God to cure them of their cancer & it never happens. Couldn't the same be said for being gay?
If that is the case, then how can we condem anyone for being gay? If God doesn't cure everyone's cancer, then he won't cure everyone's gay-ness, right?

Now let's say being gay is a choice (which it is not 100%, but for argument's sake). Just like smoking or drinking is a choice. You choose, at one point in your life, to take up the beer can or the cig. Now you are addicted & can't stop. Let's also say that at one point, you 'choose' to like the same sex & have relationships with them. But now, like smoking &/or drinking, you like it & can't stop. You go to God to ask for help in stopping the drink or the smoke. Sometimes, He helps people quit. Other times he doesn't. Can't the same, then be said of gays?

So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge gays for NOT changing. Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat gay people bad in the name of God or because it's 'against the Bible"??
It just doesn't make sense to me.

snow · Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 669

What I am more troubled with is the idea that God would help some people and not others. Personally, I don't think God operates like this, but I can see what you're saying, and it is an interesting question.

eynon · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject:

This whole issue gets way too much attention considering how little it's mentioned in the bible. :-|

The truth is that I don't know and I don't care, if a homosexual is a Christian it's between them and god.....I don't fit into the equation.

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10198

Eynon81 wrote: This whole issue gets way too much attention considering how little it's mentioned in the bible. :-|

The truth is that I don't know and I don't care, if a homosexual is a Christian it's between them and god.....I don't fit into the equation.

I think that's an excellent thought.

Gryff1nd0r · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 2430 Location: Cambridge, MA

connermt wrote:
So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge gays for NOT changing.

I can. They see it as a sin, and most gays aren't trying to change.

Homosexuality does not compare to a disease. Christians are supposed to try to be sexually pure. If a married man is attracted to another women, he shouldn't have sex with her because that would be adultery. He doesn't have a disease, he has a desire that should be repressed. It is the same view that many have about homosexual desires. It doesn't matter if they are innate or natural. Being sexually attracted to many people, even when married, is innate and natural too.

As for viewing it as an addiction like alcoholism, that doesn't change anything. If someone puts in the effort and seeks help, they can quit. It is a matter of willpower (and some would say prayer and asking God's help).

connermt wrote: Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat gay people bad in the name of God or because it's 'against the Bible"??
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Treat them bad? Or say that homosexual behavior is a sin and acknowledging that one who identifies as homosexual and leads a homosexual lifestyle is openly and purposefully sinning without attempting to stop or resist temptation? It is not Christian to treat anyone badly, but that is different from saying that repeated intentional sinning is acceptable.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5360 Location: Boston, MA

connermt wrote: Let's say, for sake of argument, that being Gay is a genetic/physical attribute (disease if you will) like cancer. We all have known or heard of God curing cancer in people (rather it be a unexplained miracle or with doctors & treatment). One would think think that being gay can be cured as well. But we have also heard about people who have asked God to cure them of their cancer & it never happens. Couldn't the same be said for being gay?
If that is the case, then how can we condem anyone for being gay? If God doesn't cure everyone's cancer, then he won't cure everyone's gay-ness, right?

Now let's say being gay is a choice (which it is not 100%, but for argument's sake). Just like smoking or drinking is a choice. You choose, at one point in your life, to take up the beer can or the cig. Now you are addicted & can't stop. Let's also say that at one point, you 'choose' to like the same sex & have relationships with them. But now, like smoking &/or drinking, you like it & can't stop. You go to God to ask for help in stopping the drink or the smoke. Sometimes, He helps people quit. Other times he doesn't. Can't the same, then be said of gays?

So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge gays for NOT changing. Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat gay people bad in the name of God or because it's 'against the Bible"??
It just doesn't make sense to me.

There is NO religious or theological justification for treating someone badly for being gay. Any Christian who would believe otherwise is simply wrong.

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10198

This one's just for fun, thinking turnabout...is often fair play. :wink:

Let's say, for sake of argument, that being Religious is a genetic/physical attribute (disease if you will) like cancer. We all have known or heard of science curing cancer in people (rather it be a unexplained miracle or with doctors & treatment). One would think think that being religious can be cured as well. But we have also heard about people who have asked doctor's to cure them of their cancer & it never happens. Couldn't the same be said for being religious?
If that is the case, then how can we condem anyone for being religious? If Science doesn't cure everyone's cancer, then he won't cure everyone's loopiness, right?

Now let's say being religious is a choice (which it is not 100%, but for argument's sake). Just like smoking or drinking is a choice. You choose, at one point in your life, to take up the beer can or the cig. Now you are addicted & can't stop. Let's also say that at one point, you 'choose' to like the religious people & have relationships with them. But now, like smoking &/or drinking, you like it & can't stop. You go to the psychologist to ask for help in stopping the drink or the smoke. Sometimes, He helps people quit. Other times he doesn't. Can't the same, then be said of believers?

So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge religious people for NOT changing. Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat religious people bad in the name of Science or because it's 'against the rationality"??
It just doesn't make sense to me. :-D

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 19330

I don't think anybody has the "right" to treat anyone else badly.

I don't know that homosexuals can "change." I do believe, however, that any deliverance of any kind or category is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Meanwhile, I have found true throughout my life, and certainly now that one of my children is "out and proud," that (1) there is a distinction between the sin and the sinner, (2) "Judge not...lest ye be judged [in kind]," and (3) there are so many timbers in my own eyes that I am busy enough trying to remove them without worrying overmuch about the spinters in others'!

As an aside, does anyone else wonder about the part of "The Lord's Prayer" in which we pray, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others"? Speaking only for myself, I pray that my Father is more forgiving of me than I have been of everybody else. I want Him to forgive me more rather than "in kind"!

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Eynon81 wrote: This whole issue gets way too much attention considering how little it's mentioned in the bible. :-|

The truth is that I don't know and I don't care, if a homosexual is a Christian it's between them and god.....I don't fit into the equation.

If everyone thought that way, then there wouldn't be much discussion. The discussion against the gay is often done to justify discrimination or some other nasty thing against gay people.

GreyArcher · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 12 Location: Missouri

I keep thinking of the fall and how humanity has slid toward our perverse and corporeal end. Decadence is a key indicator throughout history of a nation’s imminent fall. Genetic or behavioral? Those are the questions and both camps work hard to prove their assertion correct. Is it really important to define the catalyst of our fallen nature? We are all in Adam and incapable of reaching the glory of God. So in a sense, as Tim Keller says, we are engaging in defeater beliefs to assuage the real issue; our position with God.

The alcoholic, pedophile, adulterer, drug addict, prostitute, murderer, homosexual, liar. What do hey all have in common? A desperate need for redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ. Sin is sin. Regardless of it’s genetic/behavioral component. God cures some cancer and not others? Well, maybe He does but part of having faith is to understand that we are merely a PART of God’s plan; not the entirety of His plan. Romans 8:28 says that ALL things work to God’s glory; not some—but ALL.

I believe that the homosexual, like any other sinner should repent of his/her sin. No church would accept the abusive husband and not require some repentance of his action. To accept the alcoholic and suggest that they need not repent of their sinful behavior and they can still be a Christian with eternal salvation is tenuous. All of us, who have turned our lives over to Christ, have sacrificed our old self. The old self has died. We still sin and carry past consequences of that sin but we are asked to repent. Repentance is not conditional on the fact that we prove our sinful nature is genetic and therefore we get a pass on repenting. Sin=sin. Repentance is for sin regardless of the catalyst that drives it.

Just my humble opinion and sometimes even those don’t matter anymore. ;)

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Gryff1nd0r wrote: connermt wrote:
So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge gays for NOT changing.

I can. They see it as a sin, and most gays aren't trying to change.

Homosexuality does not compare to a disease. Christians are supposed to try to be sexually pure. If a married man is attracted to another women, he shouldn't have sex with her because that would be adultery. He doesn't have a disease, he has a desire that should be repressed. It is the same view that many have about homosexual desires. It doesn't matter if they are innate or natural. Being sexually attracted to many people, even when married, is innate and natural too.

As for viewing it as an addiction like alcoholism, that doesn't change anything. If someone puts in the effort and seeks help, they can quit. It is a matter of willpower (and some would say prayer and asking God's help).

connermt wrote: Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat gay people bad in the name of God or because it's 'against the Bible"??
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Treat them bad? Or say that homosexual behavior is a sin and acknowledging that one who identifies as homosexual and leads a homosexual lifestyle is openly and purposefully sinning without attempting to stop or resist temptation? It is not Christian to treat anyone badly, but that is different from saying that repeated intentional sinning is acceptable.
Quote: I can. They see it as a sin, and most gays aren't trying to change.
But some have tried & while there have been some success, some have failed in 'changing'

Quote: Homosexuality does not compare to a disease. I am not saying that it is a disease, but the Christian idea (from the Christians I know) says that anything that is not 'good', 'perfect', {or whatever positive word you insert} is because of the fall from grace. This would mean cancer, lupas, alcoholism, sexual addictions, being gay, etc. People pray to God to cure them of certain issues they have in life. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. So why does it happen sometimes & not others? Are you trying to cure yourself of something natural (gay) that can't be readily fixed, or are they just not 'trying hard enough'?
Quote: He doesn't have a disease, he has a desire that should be repressed. It is the same view that many have about homosexual desires. It doesn't matter if they are innate or natural. Being sexually attracted to many people, even when married, is innate and natural too.
By that logic, the desire of a straight guy (desiring a woman) is considered natural. Once he gets married, he still may have desires, he is at least allowed to get married. But gays aren't. If everything were equal, gays should also be allowed to get married. Then, both couples would have desires that they would have to surpress (a monagamous relationship), but they would be allowed to be with a partner that they love.

Quote: As for viewing it as an addiction like alcoholism, that doesn't change anything. If someone puts in the effort and seeks help, they can quit. It is a matter of willpower (and some would say prayer and asking God's help). Tell that to the person that died of cancer after they & their family asked for God's help but never received it in the manner that others would see (being cured). God does NOT cure everyone no matter their willpower. That is accurate accross the board.

Quote: Treat them bad? Or say that homosexual behavior is a sin and acknowledging that one who identifies as homosexual and leads a homosexual lifestyle is openly and purposefully sinning without attempting to stop or resist temptation? It is not Christian to treat anyone badly, but that is different from saying that repeated intentional sinning is acceptable. Agreed. However, many gays are treated badly by 'christians'. I have seen them asked to leave a certain church - they were told: "You shouldn't be here." True Christians should treat everyone with love & respect, rather or not you agree with how they live their live(s) in private. However, you can look around in today's world & see that is not the case 100% of the time.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

sLiPpY wrote: This one's just for fun, thinking turnabout...is often fair play. :wink:

Let's say, for sake of argument, that being Religious is a genetic/physical attribute (disease if you will) like cancer. We all have known or heard of science curing cancer in people (rather it be a unexplained miracle or with doctors & treatment). One would think think that being religious can be cured as well. But we have also heard about people who have asked doctor's to cure them of their cancer & it never happens. Couldn't the same be said for being religious?
If that is the case, then how can we condem anyone for being religious? If Science doesn't cure everyone's cancer, then he won't cure everyone's loopiness, right?

Now let's say being religious is a choice (which it is not 100%, but for argument's sake). Just like smoking or drinking is a choice. You choose, at one point in your life, to take up the beer can or the cig. Now you are addicted & can't stop. Let's also say that at one point, you 'choose' to like the religious people & have relationships with them. But now, like smoking &/or drinking, you like it & can't stop. You go to the psychologist to ask for help in stopping the drink or the smoke. Sometimes, He helps people quit. Other times he doesn't. Can't the same, then be said of believers?

So in both regards, I don't see how someone can judge religious people for NOT changing. Rather it be genetic (born that way), or a choice, or a combo of the 2 (or maybe even more) issues, what right does anyone then have to treat religious people bad in the name of Science or because it's 'against the rationality"??
It just doesn't make sense to me. :-D

Of course it would work the same way if the situation(s) were reversed. But that is not what this topic is about

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Lumina wrote: I don't think anybody has the "right" to treat anyone else badly.

I don't know that homosexuals can "change." I do believe, however, that any deliverance of any kind or category is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Meanwhile, I have found true throughout my life, and certainly now that one of my children is "out and proud," that (1) there is a distinction between the sin and the sinner, (2) "Judge not...lest ye be judged [in kind]," and (3) there are so many timbers in my own eyes that I am busy enough trying to remove them without worrying overmuch about the spinters in others'!

As an aside, does anyone else wonder about the part of "The Lord's Prayer" in which we pray, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others"? Speaking only for myself, I pray that my Father is more forgiving of me than I have been of everybody else. I want Him to forgive me more rather than "in kind"!

Well said

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Eynon81 wrote: This whole issue gets way too much attention considering how little it's mentioned in the bible. :-|

The truth is that I don't know and I don't care, if a homosexual is a Christian it's between them and god.....I don't fit into the equation.

If everyone thought that way, then there wouldn't be much discussion. The discussion against the gay is often done to justify discrimination or some other nasty thing against gay people.

Agreed

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

GreyArcher wrote: I keep thinking of the fall and how humanity has slid toward our perverse and corporeal end. Decadence is a key indicator throughout history of a nation’s imminent fall. Genetic or behavioral? Those are the questions and both camps work hard to prove their assertion correct. Is it really important to define the catalyst of our fallen nature? We are all in Adam and incapable of reaching the glory of God. So in a sense, as Tim Keller says, we are engaging in defeater beliefs to assuage the real issue; our position with God.

The alcoholic, pedophile, adulterer, drug addict, prostitute, murderer, homosexual, liar. What do hey all have in common? A desperate need for redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ. Sin is sin. Regardless of it’s genetic/behavioral component. God cures some cancer and not others? Well, maybe He does but part of having faith is to understand that we are merely a PART of God’s plan; not the entirety of His plan. Romans 8:28 says that ALL things work to God’s glory; not some—but ALL.

I believe that the homosexual, like any other sinner should repent of his/her sin. No church would accept the abusive husband and not require some repentance of his action. To accept the alcoholic and suggest that they need not repent of their sinful behavior and they can still be a Christian with eternal salvation is tenuous. All of us, who have turned our lives over to Christ, have sacrificed our old self. The old self has died. We still sin and carry past consequences of that sin but we are asked to repent. Repentance is not conditional on the fact that we prove our sinful nature is genetic and therefore we get a pass on repenting. Sin=sin. Repentance is for sin regardless of the catalyst that drives it.

Just my humble opinion and sometimes even those don’t matter anymore. ;)
Agreed.
however, do you think that 'once forgiven always forgiven'? Meaning that if you repented in 1992, that any 'sin' made afterwards will automatically be forgiven?

Gryff1nd0r · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 2430 Location: Cambridge, MA

[quote="connermt"] Gryff1nd0r wrote:
Quote: I can. They see it as a sin, and most gays aren't trying to change.
But some have tried & while there have been some success, some have failed in 'changing'

True. I recently read an article about this in the Scientific American Mind. Strong evidence supports the idea that people are almost all bisexual, with about 10% of the population on each end being exclusively homo-heterosexual. Everyone else is in between, usually with a leaning towards one preference. We don't control who we are attracted to, but we control which attractions we act on. A guy can be bisexual, but may identify as "gay" and only act on gay attractions for psycological reasons. If that guy tries to "change", he will probably have success. On the other hand, a guy at the far gay end of the spectrum will not have success in switching his orientation because he so strongly favors men and never women.

connermt wrote: Quote: Homosexuality does not compare to a disease. I am not saying that it is a disease, but the Christian idea (from the Christians I know) says that anything that is not 'good', 'perfect', {or whatever positive word you insert} is because of the fall from grace. This would mean cancer, lupas, alcoholism, sexual addictions, being gay, etc. People pray to God to cure them of certain issues they have in life. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. So why does it happen sometimes & not others? Are you trying to cure yourself of something natural (gay) that can't be readily fixed, or are they just not 'trying hard enough'?

Same answer as above. It is a matter of opinion of one feels that he/she should try to confine themselves to acting upon heterosexual attractions only, but there is nothing one can do if those heterosexual attractions simply don't exist at all. That person could be celibate, but there is no way they could live in a straight relationship without being miserable.

connermt wrote: Quote: He doesn't have a disease, he has a desire that should be repressed. It is the same view that many have about homosexual desires. It doesn't matter if they are innate or natural. Being sexually attracted to many people, even when married, is innate and natural too.
By that logic, the desire of a straight guy (desiring a woman) is considered natural. Once he gets married, he still may have desires, he is at least allowed to get married. But gays aren't. If everything were equal, gays should also be allowed to get married. Then, both couples would have desires that they would have to surpress (a monagamous relationship), but they would be allowed to be with a partner that they love.

This isn't about "everything being equal". It is about what the Bible says. According to some people's interpretation, if one doesn't have an acceptable desire, then it must be repressed. Tough if you are gay. Suck it up.

Quote: As for viewing it as an addiction like alcoholism, that doesn't change anything. If someone puts in the effort and seeks help, they can quit. It is a matter of willpower (and some would say prayer and asking God's help). Tell that to the person that died of cancer after they & their family asked for God's help but never received it in the manner that others would see (being cured). God does NOT cure everyone no matter their willpower. That is accurate accross the board.

connermt wrote: Quote: Treat them bad? Or say that homosexual behavior is a sin and acknowledging that one who identifies as homosexual and leads a homosexual lifestyle is openly and purposefully sinning without attempting to stop or resist temptation? It is not Christian to treat anyone badly, but that is different from saying that repeated intentional sinning is acceptable.
Agreed. However, many gays are treated badly by 'christians'. I have seen them asked to leave a certain church - they were told: "You shouldn't be here." True Christians should treat everyone with love & respect, rather or not you agree with how they live their live(s) in private. However, you can look around in today's world & see that is not the case 100% of the time.

Yes, that is true. Christians who behave that way are guilty of a serious sin, IMO. But the appalling behavior in some Christians is a separate issue from whether homosexuality should be an acceptable behavior, or one that gays should attempt to suppress.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

[quote="Gryff1nd0r"] connermt wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote:
Quote: I can. They see it as a sin, and most gays aren't trying to change.
But some have tried & while there have been some success, some have failed in 'changing'

True. I recently read an article about this in the Scientific American Mind. Strong evidence supports the idea that people are almost all bisexual, with about 10% of the population on each end being exclusively homo-heterosexual. Everyone else is in between, usually with a leaning towards one preference. We don't control who we are attracted to, but we control which attractions we act on. A guy can be bisexual, but may identify as "gay" and only act on gay attractions for psycological reasons. If that guy tries to "change", he will probably have success. On the other hand, a guy at the far gay end of the spectrum will not have success in switching his orientation because he so strongly favors men and never women.

connermt wrote: Quote: Homosexuality does not compare to a disease. I am not saying that it is a disease, but the Christian idea (from the Christians I know) says that anything that is not 'good', 'perfect', {or whatever positive word you insert} is because of the fall from grace. This would mean cancer, lupas, alcoholism, sexual addictions, being gay, etc. People pray to God to cure them of certain issues they have in life. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. So why does it happen sometimes & not others? Are you trying to cure yourself of something natural (gay) that can't be readily fixed, or are they just not 'trying hard enough'?

Same answer as above. It is a matter of opinion of one feels that he/she should try to confine themselves to acting upon heterosexual attractions only, but there is nothing one can do if those heterosexual attractions simply don't exist at all. That person could be celibate, but there is no way they could live in a straight relationship without being miserable.

connermt wrote: Quote: He doesn't have a disease, he has a desire that should be repressed. It is the same view that many have about homosexual desires. It doesn't matter if they are innate or natural. Being sexually attracted to many people, even when married, is innate and natural too.
By that logic, the desire of a straight guy (desiring a woman) is considered natural. Once he gets married, he still may have desires, he is at least allowed to get married. But gays aren't. If everything were equal, gays should also be allowed to get married. Then, both couples would have desires that they would have to surpress (a monagamous relationship), but they would be allowed to be with a partner that they love.

This isn't about "everything being equal". It is about what the Bible says. According to some people's interpretation, if one doesn't have an acceptable desire, then it must be repressed. Tough if you are gay. Suck it up.

Quote: As for viewing it as an addiction like alcoholism, that doesn't change anything. If someone puts in the effort and seeks help, they can quit. It is a matter of willpower (and some would say prayer and asking God's help). Tell that to the person that died of cancer after they & their family asked for God's help but never received it in the manner that others would see (being cured). God does NOT cure everyone no matter their willpower. That is accurate accross the board.

connermt wrote: Quote: Treat them bad? Or say that homosexual behavior is a sin and acknowledging that one who identifies as homosexual and leads a homosexual lifestyle is openly and purposefully sinning without attempting to stop or resist temptation? It is not Christian to treat anyone badly, but that is different from saying that repeated intentional sinning is acceptable.
Agreed. However, many gays are treated badly by 'christians'. I have seen them asked to leave a certain church - they were told: "You shouldn't be here." True Christians should treat everyone with love & respect, rather or not you agree with how they live their live(s) in private. However, you can look around in today's world & see that is not the case 100% of the time.

Yes, that is true. Christians who behave that way are guilty of a serious sin, IMO. But the appalling behavior in some Christians is a separate issue from whether homosexuality should be an acceptable behavior, or one that gays should attempt to suppress.

Quote: some people's interpretation,... And the Bible is open for all sorts of interpertations. The way women were treated at one point was considered correct by the Bible. Now that part isn't considered correct by society (rather it is just ignored or 'seen in the light of higher understanding', I am not sure). At some point, homosexuality will go this way as well I am sure.

GreyArcher · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 12 Location: Missouri

connermt wrote: GreyArcher wrote: I keep thinking of the fall and how humanity has slid toward our perverse and corporeal end. Decadence is a key indicator throughout history of a nation’s imminent fall. Genetic or behavioral? Those are the questions and both camps work hard to prove their assertion correct. Is it really important to define the catalyst of our fallen nature? We are all in Adam and incapable of reaching the glory of God. So in a sense, as Tim Keller says, we are engaging in defeater beliefs to assuage the real issue; our position with God.

The alcoholic, pedophile, adulterer, drug addict, prostitute, murderer, homosexual, liar. What do hey all have in common? A desperate need for redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ. Sin is sin. Regardless of it’s genetic/behavioral component. God cures some cancer and not others? Well, maybe He does but part of having faith is to understand that we are merely a PART of God’s plan; not the entirety of His plan. Romans 8:28 says that ALL things work to God’s glory; not some—but ALL.

I believe that the homosexual, like any other sinner should repent of his/her sin. No church would accept the abusive husband and not require some repentance of his action. To accept the alcoholic and suggest that they need not repent of their sinful behavior and they can still be a Christian with eternal salvation is tenuous. All of us, who have turned our lives over to Christ, have sacrificed our old self. The old self has died. We still sin and carry past consequences of that sin but we are asked to repent. Repentance is not conditional on the fact that we prove our sinful nature is genetic and therefore we get a pass on repenting. Sin=sin. Repentance is for sin regardless of the catalyst that drives it.

Just my humble opinion and sometimes even those don’t matter anymore. ;)
Agreed.
however, do you think that 'once forgiven always forgiven'? Meaning that if you repented in 1992, that any 'sin' made afterwards will automatically be forgiven?

I do believe that when you turn your life over to Christ and repent of your sins; they are forgiven. I believe that forgiveness continues as long as repentance is a part of your walk with Christ. Paul said “what then? Should we continue to sin to show God’s grace?” I am paraphrasing here. Of course we should not.

James is often misunderstood in order to justify a works salvation but what James meant is that our works come from the gratitude of the gift we have been given. Faith without works is dead because we truly would have no faith if our works did not reflect the fruit of the spirit. In short; we are to walk the way of Christ; endure in the sanctification process and repent of our sins. In this case; forgiveness is continued throughout our lives. I hope that explains my position better and thanks for engaging my post.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

GreyArcher wrote: connermt wrote: GreyArcher wrote: I keep thinking of the fall and how humanity has slid toward our perverse and corporeal end. Decadence is a key indicator throughout history of a nation’s imminent fall. Genetic or behavioral? Those are the questions and both camps work hard to prove their assertion correct. Is it really important to define the catalyst of our fallen nature? We are all in Adam and incapable of reaching the glory of God. So in a sense, as Tim Keller says, we are engaging in defeater beliefs to assuage the real issue; our position with God.

The alcoholic, pedophile, adulterer, drug addict, prostitute, murderer, homosexual, liar. What do hey all have in common? A desperate need for redemption and salvation in Jesus Christ. Sin is sin. Regardless of it’s genetic/behavioral component. God cures some cancer and not others? Well, maybe He does but part of having faith is to understand that we are merely a PART of God’s plan; not the entirety of His plan. Romans 8:28 says that ALL things work to God’s glory; not some—but ALL.

I believe that the homosexual, like any other sinner should repent of his/her sin. No church would accept the abusive husband and not require some repentance of his action. To accept the alcoholic and suggest that they need not repent of their sinful behavior and they can still be a Christian with eternal salvation is tenuous. All of us, who have turned our lives over to Christ, have sacrificed our old self. The old self has died. We still sin and carry past consequences of that sin but we are asked to repent. Repentance is not conditional on the fact that we prove our sinful nature is genetic and therefore we get a pass on repenting. Sin=sin. Repentance is for sin regardless of the catalyst that drives it.

Just my humble opinion and sometimes even those don’t matter anymore. ;)
Agreed.
however, do you think that 'once forgiven always forgiven'? Meaning that if you repented in 1992, that any 'sin' made afterwards will automatically be forgiven?

I do believe that when you turn your life over to Christ and repent of your sins; they are forgiven. I believe that forgiveness continues as long as repentance is a part of your walk with Christ. Paul said “what then? Should we continue to sin to show God’s grace?” I am paraphrasing here. Of course we should not.

James is often misunderstood in order to justify a works salvation but what James meant is that our works come from the gratitude of the gift we have been given. Faith without works is dead because we truly would have no faith if our works did not reflect the fruit of the spirit. In short; we are to walk the way of Christ; endure in the sanctification process and repent of our sins. In this case; forgiveness is continued throughout our lives. I hope that explains my position better and thanks for engaging my post.

Let's say that being gay is a sin, not the acts, just being gay. So therefore, wouldn't it be said that a gay person who can be a christian be in a 'continuous loop' of sinning & then being forgiven? Or do you have to actually ask everytime to be forgiven? Now let's say that just the acts are a sin. Then everytime an act is comitted, even in a coupled relationship, then you need forgiven? That would be the same in a hetero-couple that's not married. So, following that logic, gays would need to be married to eliminate the sin. But gay marriage is illegal in some places & more are moving to that end. So the only way for a gay person to be a christian is to be celibate? (SP?)?
Just thinking out loud.

GreyArcher · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 12 Location: Missouri

connermt wrote:
Let's say that being gay is a sin, not the acts, just being gay. So therefore, wouldn't it be said that a gay person who can be a christian be in a 'continuous loop' of sinning & then being forgiven? Or do you have to actually ask everytime to be forgiven? Now let's say that just the acts are a sin. Then everytime an act is comitted, even in a coupled relationship, then you need forgiven? That would be the same in a hetero-couple that's not married. So, following that logic, gays would need to be married to eliminate the sin. But gay marriage is illegal in some places & more are moving to that end. So the only way for a gay person to be a christian is to be celibate? (SP?)?
Just thinking out loud.

I think if we try and divide the homosexual issue into a position that it becomes acceptable; we have missed the point. Let’s eschew homosexuality for a moment. Let’s look at sin. There are many things that constitute sin when you are dealing with a perfect God. His imputed righteousness is only achieved through Christ. The act of coming to Christ signifies a very important point in one’s life. You are basically turning away from sin and walking toward Christ. That is the covenant that you are making with God. When this happens, you receive the Holy Spirit. The Spirit helps us continue to turn from sin and look toward the sanctification process. Please don’t miss this process; it is crucial to your argument. When we “turn” to Christ, we “turn” from sin. Will we continue to sin? Yes, but it should not be a wanton desire in our heart. We must avoid the temptation and turn from the sinful behavior we once craved. We are “born again” because our old self dies to sin and we will want to avoid sin if possible. Salvation requires something of us; not just an admittance of God.

I appreciate your comments and understand your query. It is important to know that while salvation is as easy as turning your life over to Christ; it also is a covenant. When the Holy Spirit is in us; we will start to see the sin we commit and want to avoid it. It is a fruit of the spirit. Coming to Christ requires something of us. You can’t just say; “I believe in Christ and I still like sleeping with the same sex but that’s ok; I am saved”. That is not true. You are called to walk away from sin. To repent and cease the sinful behavior. Otherwise you are not walking in Christ. It demands a higher standard of living from us. Not to still wallow in our sinful decadence but to rise above that. Are there homosexual’s who have turned their life over to Christ and want desperately to turn from the sin but relapse? Yes. Are they forgiven? In my opinion, yes. Should they constantly strive to avoid the sin? Yes. Can they start sleeping with the opposite sex continually, move in with each other and live a life of decadence and still be Christian? In my opinion, no. If this is what they choose to do; I would argue they never truly turned their life over to Christ. Leaving sin takes the work of the Creator. We can’t do it ourselves and only with the help of Christ will the homosexual be able to break the bond of sin they live in. Just like all of us who struggle with sin. God does not asterisk homosexuality; it is all sin. Hope this helps. Sorry for any ambiguity.