Political Crossfire Forums

StarCross · Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Posts: 165

Good morning fellas.

James reports that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone:

>> But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24) <<

However, Paul's words to the Romans present an opposing view on justification:

>> What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (Romans 4:1-6) <<

So which of these wise guys has it right for the Christian today. That guy James, who knew Jesus personally or that fella Paul who recieved his message through a revelation of the risen Lord (Galatians 1:12)?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies and please play nice,
StarCross.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:50 am Post subject:

We're not justified by works of the law, meaning we can not "earn" our salvation outside of accepting the gift of grace. That's what Paul means, I believe. He is NOT saying that "works" are not important, or that works can not increase or decrease our faith/state of grace. Paul himself flat out says to "Work out your own salvation" (Phil. 2:12). We CHOOSE to follow God or not, which is in itsself a work. Good works are a reflection of/cause of that choice to follow God, which is to accept the Grace that has been freely given.

Faith and Works are a coin. Faith is Heads, Woks is Tails. You can't have one without the other.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:01 am Post subject:

Todd D. wrote: We're not justified by works of the law, meaning we can not "earn" our salvation outside of accepting the gift of grace. That's what Paul means, I believe. He is NOT saying that "works" are not important, or that works can not increase or decrease our faith/state of grace. Paul himself flat out says to "Work out your own salvation" (Phil. 2:12). We CHOOSE to follow God or not, which is in itsself a work. Good works are a reflection of/cause of that choice to follow God, which is to accept the Grace that has been freely given.

Faith and Works are a coin. Faith is Heads, Woks is Tails. You can't have one without the other.

"And when one side is up the other is down." A little quote from Ender's game, not what i totally agree with, but kinda cool anyways :-D .

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

This is no different than the concept that one must be truly born again. It isn't just something you say...it's a real event that truly changes the way you see things and what you want to do. Being truly born again causes a real reaction....you could call this reaction "works".

James isn't telling us that we need to get to work to earn justification. He’s saying that the works are evidence that the real change of being born again has happened.

Basically...if there isn't a noticeable change in you...you prolly are NOT born again.

Some of you guys might not want to hear this..but I'm going to use a contraversal example. Turning away from homosexuality would be an example of a "work" that shows evidence of a real transformation or being born again.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:02 am Post subject:

Todd D. wrote: We're not justified by works of the law, meaning we can not "earn" our salvation outside of accepting the gift of grace. That's what Paul means, I believe. He is NOT saying that "works" are not important, or that works can not increase or decrease our faith/state of grace. Paul himself flat out says to "Work out your own salvation" (Phil. 2:12). We CHOOSE to follow God or not, which is in itsself a work. Good works are a reflection of/cause of that choice to follow God, which is to accept the Grace that has been freely given.

Faith and Works are a coin. Faith is Heads, Woks is Tails. You can't have one without the other.

Just found a better one, "And I'm the metal in between." Also from Ender's Game (from Valentine though.)

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:06 am Post subject:

John wrote: This is no different than the concept that one must be truly born again. It isn't just something you say...it's a real event that truly changes the way you see things and what you want to do. Being truly born again causes a real reaction....you could call this reaction "works".

James isn't telling us that we need to get to work to earn justification. He’s saying that the works are evidence that the real change of being born again has happened.

Basically...if there isn't a noticeable change in you...you prolly are NOT born again.

I'd agree with that more or less, though we obviously disagree on whether or not you could turn back away, which I think is where the real "works" debate comes in.

We both agree that good works are an outward sign of an inward change, that it's God working through us and Grace that allows us to act that way. I think were the diversion is whether or not one can then CHOOSE to turn away from following God, doing the bad "work" of choosing to DISOBEY God and thus losing that state of Grace.

I don't think Catholics and Protestants disagree that good works flow from Faith. What we disagree on is the explaination/consequence of subsequent evil works.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:14 am Post subject:

So, I think a good way to sum this up is that one with good faith shows it in thier actions.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: We both agree that good works are an outward sign of an inward change, that it's God working through us and Grace that allows us to act that way. I think were the diversion is whether or not one can then CHOOSE to turn away from following God, doing the bad "work" of choosing to DISOBEY God and thus losing that state of Grace.

It seems to me that you're describing Salvation as a light switch that goes off and on and that you're plating a game of hoping that you can keep the light on for enough time to make the bill.

I don't think it works that way. I believe that the atonement was finished on the cross..then and there...DONE. Once someone is truly saved their heart changes and they want to please God...now sure they still sin, but someone who is truly born again is going to be really unhappy while they are in sin...and turn from it. The saved life is a learning process....one that God has laid out for us as a type of boot camp that prepares us for eternity.

Saying that someone can "lose Grace" is an oxymoron. You can't lose unmerited favor....it's unmerited...meaning that it's not based on merit....its Grace. The only way one could “fall from Grace”…it to reject that it IS Grace…to start to believe that you have to earn your Salvation in some way. To turn away from the Faith that believes in the Grace of God and place yourself into a state of trying to save yourself.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:33 am Post subject:

Quote: It seems to me that you're describing Salvation as a light switch that goes off and on and that you're plating a game of hoping that you can keep the light on for enough time to make the bill.
More like a path that you walk on throughout your life. You choose to stay on the path or you choose to wander from it.

Quote: I don't think it works that way. I believe that the atonement was finished on the cross..then and there...DONE. Once someone is truly saved their heart changes and they want to please God...now sure they still sin, but someone who is truly born again is going to be really unhappy while they are in sin...and turn from it. The saved life is a learning process....one that God has laid out for us as a type of boot camp that prepares us for eternity.
I don't believe "Saved" is past tense in the way that you do. Like we both say, it's a learning process, we just disagree on the severity of consequence for leaving that path.

Quote: Saying that someone can "lose Grace" is an oxymoron. You can't lose unmerited favor....it's unmerited...meaning that it's not based on merit....its Grace.
I disagree. Let's say that I, who you really don't even know, show up at your door with an iPod and say "Here, for you". You thank me and take the gift that you did not "earn". A month later you decide that you hate music and throw the iPod away. The fact that you did nothing to EARN that gift does not change the fact that you could still choose that you did not want it. The difference is that while I might not be all that quick to get you another one, God will always forgive and accept you when if and when you decide that you DO want it back.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: I don't believe "Saved" is past tense in the way that you do. Like we both say, it's a learning process, we just disagree on the severity of consequence for leaving that path.

I don't believe in it as a past tense thing either. I am saved…in effect I’m in Heaven right now in the eternal state of Salvation. I was saved before the foundation of the earth. Time is an illusion my friend.

What do you mean we disagree on the severity of the consequence of sin? Do you know what I believe? Because I believe that there is dire consequence for ever single sin I commit....and on a more serious note...it ADDS to the pain that Christ felt on the cross.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: I disagree. Let's say that I, who you really don't even know, show up at your door with an iPod and say "Here, for you". You thank me and take the gift that you did not "earn". A month later you decide that you hate music and throw the iPod away. The fact that you did nothing to EARN that gift does not change the fact that you could still choose that you did not want it. The difference is that while I might not be all that quick to get you another one, God will always forgive and accept you when if and when you decide that you DO want it back.

Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.

If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: I disagree. Let's say that I, who you really don't even know, show up at your door with an iPod and say "Here, for you". You thank me and take the gift that you did not "earn". A month later you decide that you hate music and throw the iPod away. The fact that you did nothing to EARN that gift does not change the fact that you could still choose that you did not want it. The difference is that while I might not be all that quick to get you another one, God will always forgive and accept you when if and when you decide that you DO want it back.

Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.

If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.

Are you saying that one doesnt have free will once they have found thier faith? God can give us his help, but we can also throw that away, or stop listening.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

fourtysixandtwo wrote: John wrote: Quote: I disagree. Let's say that I, who you really don't even know, show up at your door with an iPod and say "Here, for you". You thank me and take the gift that you did not "earn". A month later you decide that you hate music and throw the iPod away. The fact that you did nothing to EARN that gift does not change the fact that you could still choose that you did not want it. The difference is that while I might not be all that quick to get you another one, God will always forgive and accept you when if and when you decide that you DO want it back.

Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.

If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.

Are you saying that one doesnt have free will once they have found thier faith? God can give us his help, but we can also throw that away, or stop listening.

I'm not sure what you mean by "found thier faith". What I'm saying is that God is not going to change the will of your heart unless you (your spirit) really wants it (the flesh doesn't want it and never will)...if you (your spirit) really wants it then why would you reject it later? Follow?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: I don't think it works that way. I believe that the atonement was finished on the cross..then and there...DONE.
You haven't been to the Cross yet, John..

The philosophy you preach sounds all nice and good, on paper ... for a child. But the fact is that it leaves the door wide open to all manner of criminal misconduct, injustice and irresponsibility, and God the Creator would never orchestrate things to work like that. No man is responsible anymore for his own actions, under your scheme. Either he's committed the slightest injustice and he's going to burn in Hell for eternity b/c of it, or else he's Adolf Hitler but he "found" Jesus on his deathbed, so he's going straight to Heaven ...

This is absurd, and deep down I know that you know it..

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:

Quote: What do you mean we disagree on the severity of the consequence of sin? Do you know what I believe? Because I believe that there is dire consequence for ever single sin I commit....and on a more serious note...it ADDS to the pain that Christ felt on the cross.
Right, and I believe that it cuts us off. Different consequence.

Quote: Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.
I am of the opinion that when we sin, it is not God that fails, but us.

Quote: If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.
Like I said, on that we disagree. I believe it's a walk, you believe it's a moment. I'm not saying definitely who is right and who is wrong.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

The social innovation that is Christianity *does* rely very heavily on "faith", b/c by the very nature of the human thought/action/reaction process, and by the very nature of how the Universe is constructed, it's impossible for man to "do" something (i.e., make a "work", as the fundies like to say) unless he first thinks about it and unless he has "faith" that he can do it.

Christianity was an extreme innovation in Western thought b/c prior to its advent, men were regulated very, very heavily (by their "gods") as to what they were and were not permitted to do. This was -- as always -- for the good of soceity, as well as for the health of mind, body and Soul. You're not "permitted" to run around being a serial killer, b/c this is "bad" for the community you live in, and frankly it's bad for your own mind, body and Soul. On the other hand, you are permitted to run around doing good charitable works, b/c this is good for society and frankly its good for your mind, body and Soul. This should be obvious, although given the level of argument I've seen some fundies make on this board, I'm not sure what to take for a given and what not..

Note that in both cases, it matters not so much what anyone happens to believe, but it matters more what they do. I don't care *why* you're being a serial killer (whether it's b/c you have ghosts in your head or b/c you're just really, really angry at something, etc), I just care that you *are* a serial killer. It matters not one whit what you believe, it matters only what you do. Notice also that I have in mind only the stability and sanity of society, not the "salvation" (<- as Christians like to call it) of the eternal Soul, although it should be . This is not new. Christianity did not "invent" these laws.. They're as old as the hills and for the love of God I should hope that it's obvious to everyone: you get rewarded for doing good, you get punished for doing bad. Pretty basic stuff, although I'm certain that there are those on this board who will (amazingly) good to disagree w/ that.

Christianity was a deep innovation precisely b/c it freed men from the chains of social "laws" and norms that may or may not have been constructive to their health. Christianity recognizes and understands that the basic formula by which things get done in this world is:

Thought --> Will --> Action

First you must think of something.. then there must be the will to do it (if it's a repulsive or scary thought, the will to follow through probably won't be there, and so the action willl not be carried through). Finally, if the (Free) Will is strong enough, action in the real world takes place.

Most old-world religions tried to regulate very, very heavily the last link of that chain (the "Action"). They did so for the good of the society they were opeating in. Judaism is a very good, although certainly not the only, such example .. Christianity is different b/c it backs up your individual, personal responsibility from part (c) of the Link ("Action") all the way up to part (a) (the "Thoughts" and "Beliefs" that you have). No more is a specific code or creed of conduct going to be regimented and instituted from on high. You are "free" on your "own" recognizance.... but w/ that caveat (as has ALWAYS been true) that:

YOU ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN THOUGHTS, DESIRES AND ACTIONS

This debate between "faith" and "works" that Protestants love to dwell on is simply absurd. You're not going to do *anytning* in life unless you first have the faith (and then the Will) to do it. Moreover, if you just have faith, and no will or work, nothing's going to happen. You can't so much as feed yourself or tie your shoelaces unless you do some kind of work.. You think God is "simpler" to "get to" and "communicate w" than tying your own shoelace? You think that it requires "works" to tie your shoelace, but that it requires no such "works" (and merely "faith alone" is sufficient) in matters of the Divine??

Utterly and completely absurd.

At the same time, like Duchi has said (well), the point is not to "worship" the works, the point is simply to do them. Doing them brings you and your Soul closer to God. So much the better.. But to think that you can affect anything in the world (material or spiritual) by "faith alone" is the greatest of impositions.. Yes, "faith" is important to the Christian, but the reason for it is precisely b/c of the greater responsibility that the Christian has (to himself, and to his God) .. it's not an excuse to abdicate responsibility..

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

psholtz wrote: John wrote: I don't think it works that way. I believe that the atonement was finished on the cross..then and there...DONE.
You haven't been to the Cross yet, John..

The philosophy you preach sounds all nice and good, on paper ... for a child. But the fact is that it leaves the door wide open to all manner of criminal misconduct, injustice and irresponsibility, and God the Creator would never orchestrate things to work like that. No man is responsible anymore for his own actions, under your scheme. Either he's committed the slightest injustice and he's going to burn in Hell for eternity b/c of it, or else he's Adolf Hitler but he "found" Jesus on his deathbed, so he's going straight to Heaven ...

This is absurd, and deep down I know that you know it..

I'd appreciate if you don't purposely misrepresent what I believe again. I've explained this to you at least ten times....and you just don't care. You just keep repeating something that you know that I don't believe.

I don’t believe that too many death bed confessionals have actually happened. By that time people are pretty set in their ways.

And I’ve already told you that becoming born again isn’t something you can will into happening. It happens through the Grace of God….God wills it to happen…for in and of ourselves one would never seek Salvation.

Besides...what do you care if God forgives someone or not? What is it to you?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Todd D. wrote: Quote: What do you mean we disagree on the severity of the consequence of sin? Do you know what I believe? Because I believe that there is dire consequence for ever single sin I commit....and on a more serious note...it ADDS to the pain that Christ felt on the cross.
Right, and I believe that it cuts us off. Different consequence.

Quote: Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.
I am of the opinion that when we sin, it is not God that fails, but us.

Quote: If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.
Like I said, on that we disagree. I believe it's a walk, you believe it's a moment. I'm not saying definitely who is right and who is wrong.

Well, I guess we just disagree on this issue then.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: What do you mean we disagree on the severity of the consequence of sin? Do you know what I believe? Because I believe that there is dire consequence for ever single sin I commit....and on a more serious note...it ADDS to the pain that Christ felt on the cross.
Right, and I believe that it cuts us off. Different consequence.

Quote: Here's the difference. God knows all....he knows who will and who will not throw away the "ipod". He not going to give you the iPod knowing that you're going to throw it away. God doesn't fail my friend.
I am of the opinion that when we sin, it is not God that fails, but us.

Quote: If you are saved...you're saved...that's the good news. Now the real question is are you really saved.
Like I said, on that we disagree. I believe it's a walk, you believe it's a moment. I'm not saying definitely who is right and who is wrong.

Well, I guess we just disagree on this issue then.
I, for one, am shocked :-D

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: And I’ve already told you that becoming born again isn’t something you can will into happening. It happens through the Grace of God….God wills it to happen…for in and of ourselves one would never seek Salvation.
Yes, you have already told me this, and you have precisely no authority whatsoever for telling me or anyone else anything on this subject...

Quote: Besides...what do you care if God forgives someone or not? What is it to you?
Your Father in Heaven will never forgive you (here or in Heaven) unless you first forgive your fellow man down here on earth.

That is the Law..

.. and it's spelled out quite clearly for all to see and read in the Gospels. How you've managed to pervert this Law into "well, you can also be 'forgiven' just by 'believing' in Jesus Christ" utterly escapes my comprehension..