Political Crossfire Forums

[Reverend_HellH0und]

jasonireland wrote: jeez looks like you gave that alot of thought. a bit rushed i think.



Well lets see. You pester me with 3 pm's begging the presence of the Good Reverend in this thread. You accuse everyone of ignoring your 16 point master plan. You attempt to goad me with one line trolling.

I respond to your post line by line and answer all 16 of your silly points.


And this is what you respond with? Another trolling intellectually vacant post?


I take it as the Good Reverend has completley destroyed the unnatural concept of veganism and you are left wanting curled up in the fetal position mubmling something about your whole reality shattered.

POINT: Reverend Hellhound.

Forfiet: JAsonireland.

Thanks for playing.


You lose. :lol:

[mathurin]

forthegreatergood wrote: Many countries exist separately from other countries because of different beliefs or doctrines. I have a scenario for beings to ponder. What if this planet was divided with one hemisphere populated by herbivores/vegetarian/vegans and the other hemisphere populated by carnivores/cannibals/omnivores/meat-eaters


forthegreatergood wrote:
What if one hemisphere was wholly vegetarian, focusing on agriculture and producing and appreciating vegetation and crops,


they would soon fall victim to the lack of nutrients neccesary in meat
their land use would be inefficient as hilly or infertile land would have no use

forthegreatergood wrote:
which would help the atmosphere with vegetation/flora's ability to filter/circulate air, as well as other abilities.

um, i thought grass was a better O2 producer than most anything
you know, the stuff we have to have to raise cattle

forthegreatergood wrote:
Creatures called animals would not be eaten. Do you think "animal" creatures behavior and aggression would change knowing that their loved ones were not massacred and born for human consumption?

no, human behavior has little effect on animal behavior towards other animals
if humans stopped killing animals then you would see a marked increase in animals killing humans, because they are no longer afraid of them



forthegreatergood wrote:
What if one hemisphere was wholly fellow flesh creature-eaters, producing their fellow creature family for food, Feeding off of each other, Paying money for carcasses to eat. These beings are omnivores/carnivores/.

How do you think the societies would progress and differ from each other over a hundreds or thousand of years? Consider variables such as pollution, ethics, political organization,military, technology, biofuel, oil, culture, religion, reincarnation, etc....


Do you think there should be a vegetarian/vegan country? Wouldn't it be interesting to see how it would progress and how it would develop?
yes i think there should be a vegan country, when they all die of malnutrition because they are idiots then we will finally have complete proof that vegans are out of their minds and we could finally put them in mental hospitals as being a danger to themselves



jason, i already countered your "facts" in another thread, i wont do it again here

[jasonireland]

reverend, your only tactic(once you have learned you cannot argue your way out) is to discredit the points i made as if you were more of an authority on nutrition, land use and the issues raised than the non-vegan organisations who did the research in the first place.
you say there is no land shortage, but misinterept (either deliberately or not ) the idea being put forward which is that animals need to be fed, fed alot more during their lives than the proportinate amount of nutrition you recieve upon eating them.(see the amount of land it takes to feed them in the table in my points above, versus that of the highly nutritious potatoe)

in a world where 21 % of the global population lives in absolute poverty, dont you think it is a bit of a waste of money feeding all of those animals.( govt subsidise the beef and diary industry way more than they do the vegetable industry, this is a clear waste of money that could be used to feed the poverty stricken)

and in a world that is fighting over fossil fuels, which are running out, dont you think its also a misuse of valuable resources transporting, feeding, killing, freezing and refridgerating animals when it is HUGELY cheaper to "process" vegetables. that is the point you either are missing or ignoring to dispute.

how the hell does "eating lean meat lower cholesteral and reduce heart discease" thats absurd to the greatest degree, can you back that up? and if you can , how can you prove that lean meat has healthier effects than "silly vegetables" .........that is an unbelievable statement, have you degenerated your arguement towards pointless sarcasm?

why you discredit the facts i present so easily,( you have no authority) when they are obviously from reputable sources ( if you check the website, there are links to the original non vegan organisations).....

you have continually distorted what i have to say so many times i am getting weary, considering not many people seem to agree with what you have to say.


you have yet to prove, with a reasonable philosphy at least(not using mindless babble, pride of your own diet, discrediting facts, and ignoring truths) why you regard me as selfish and why if more ( not 50% of the population, which you said and i never suggested ) people became vegan it would be a bad thing for the environment, energy resources, opitmal land use.

please be more lucid in your arguement and source the ludicrus statements you make.

[mathurin]

jasonireland wrote: reverend, your only tactic(once you have learned you cannot argue your way out) is to discredit the points i made as if you were more of an authority on nutrition, land use and the issues raised than the non-vegan organisations who did the research in the first place.
you say there is no land shortage, but misinterept (either deliberately or not ) the idea being put forward which is that animals need to be fed, fed alot more during their lives than the proportinate amount of nutrition you recieve upon eating them.(see the amount of land it takes to feed them in the table in my points above, versus that of the highly nutritious potatoe)

he discredits the points because they have no value

and you totally ignore that all land is not equal and all produce is not equal, i have addressed this before with you and i can easily take pictures showing you the effects of growing crops where crops should not be grown


jasonireland wrote:
in a world where 21 % of the global population lives in absolute poverty, dont you think it is a bit of a waste of money feeding all of those animals.( govt subsidise the beef and diary industry way more than they do the vegetable industry, this is a clear waste of money that could be used to feed the poverty stricken)

there is plenty of food, its distribution


jasonireland wrote:
and in a world that is fighting over fossil fuels, which are running out, dont you think its also a misuse of valuable resources transporting, feeding, killing, freezing and refridgerating animals when it is HUGELY cheaper to "process" vegetables. that is the point you either are missing or ignoring to dispute.

what, we are fighting over fossil fuels?
wow, somebody better tell bush, i mean, didnt we just defeat a country that has lots of oil, i guess we had better start getting that stuff over here, since non has made it to america yet

i guess we should also close down all theme parks, theatres, movie studios, recording studios, radio stations, anything and everything that wastes power, hell, why do we even need TV!

we are a free society, not a utilitarian one, shut your mouth


jasonireland wrote:
why you discredit the facts i present so easily,( you have no authority) when they are obviously from reputable sources ( if you check the website, there are links to the original non vegan organisations).....


dont know about him, but my authority comes from an Agriculture class, as well as more than 10 years of listening to my farming grandfather

a stat taken out of context is no more than a lie

jasonireland wrote:
you have continually distorted what i have to say so many times i am getting weary, considering not many people seem to agree with what you have to say.

not many people seem to agree?
how many people did you say were in your little vegan society?
a million? 2?
dont let your little mental masterbation with your friends fool you, you guys are very the minority, though if you keep lying like this you might get some more members, i cant wait to move to the city so i can run into some of you guys
even at 2 million my small state of kansas outnumbers you, keep whining, we will keep ignoring you

jasonireland wrote:
you have yet to prove, with a reasonable philosphy at least(not using mindless babble, pride of your own diet, discrediting facts, and ignoring truths) why you regard me as selfish and why if more ( not 50% of the population, which you said and i never suggested ) people became vegan it would be a bad thing for the environment, energy resources, opitmal land use.

please be more lucid in your arguement and source the ludicrus statements you make.

how about this, this is a free country, we do what we want, if you intend to harm my freedom to eat meat then you can go back home

[Canadian_Patriot]

We cannot survive on meat or veggies alone we need both. If you only eat meat it will mess up you digestive system and if you only eat veggies you lack proper nutrition that eventually leads to a cut lifespan and malnutrition.

In a physical battle the omnivores win economically we win again being the best nurished we could run circles the glutonous slow moving fat carnivorous people but use our strength to break veg-heads like the twigs they are.
:lol:

Go team Omni eaters :wink:

[forthegreatergood]

Quote: Go team Omni eaters :wink:

source: http://www.veg.ca/newsletr/janfeb97/athlete.html

Vegetarian diet for athletes
by Dr. Benjamin Spock

Fortunately, today we have the information as well as the testimonies of many athletes to substantiate the benefits of plant-based diets. Dave Scott, considered to be the world's greatest triathlete, holds a degree in exercise physiology. In his own words, it's a "ridiculous fallacy" to think that athletes need animal protein. He is joined in his views by such Olympians as Edwin Moses, the gold medalist who went eight years without losing the 400-meter hurdle competition, and Murray Rose who, at age 17, won three gold medals in the Olympic swim competition.Dave Scott, six-time Ironman Triathlon winner

This year, I was glad to see Olympic champion Carl Lewis crown his career with his best long jump in two years to win a record-tying ninth gold medal. Lewis, of course, is a longtime vegetarian [vegan] whose dietary changes developed out of his moral and religious convictions. Several years ago Leroy Burrell and Carl Lewis traded titles back and forth when they were being hailed as the fastest sprinters in the world - both were vegetarians.

Whether you are a world class athlete, a weekend athlete, or simply a recreational exerciser, we now know that you can meet your performance objectives, and improve your health by eating a plant-based diet that meets your energy needs. Even at my present age, 93, I found that switching to a plant-based diet improved my health dramatically.

Dr. Benjamin Spock, New Century Nutrition, Sept. 1996

[forthegreatergood]

Quote: how about this, this is a free country, we do what we want, if you intend to harm my freedom to eat meat then you can go back home

So it is a "free" country, is that what you think? There are rules and regulations, and beings need to know them. Freedom. You have the freedom to do GOOD things, and evil things. Or do you? If you do evil things, what happens to your freedoms?

[thintheherd]

jasonireland wrote: ...
you have continually distorted what i have to say so many times i am getting weary, considering not many people seem to agree with what you have to say.
I don't know about you, but I see a clear majority of omnivores refuting your claims. Add me to that list will ya?

[jasonireland]

they refute the claims because they cannot take a dent to their pride, frustrated with a lifestyle choice that is being presented to you as environmentally damaging, unethical towards animals and ultimately replacable with a proven healthier, more sustainable alternative diet, namely veganism.you cannot face up to it.

you take a position of defence,feeling like you are being attacked just because someone else tells you what their diet is.and that (!) its actually possible to survive on it too.

if you want to be added to that list of people who cannot face the facts well then yes i`ll add you, but its your choice.

[Winchester]

forthegreatergood wrote:
What if one hemisphere was wholly vegetarian, focusing on agriculture and producing and appreciating vegetation and crops, which would help the atmosphere with vegetation/flora's ability to filter/circulate air, as well as other abilities. Creatures called animals would not be eaten. Do you think "animal" creatures behavior and aggression would change knowing that their loved ones were not massacred and born for human consumption?

This is how I see the vegan hemisphere playing out.

Year One - Humans have happy hug fest about how they love animals and won't harm them and will live in peace and harmony and just eat plants. Everyone has a nice euphoric feeling.

Year Two - Humans say wow look at all the new little Bambies aren't they cute and they're only eating a little of our crops, we can share.

Year Five - Damn deer, jumping our fences, eating our baby lettuces, they're getting to be a nuisance, but we do love them and can share what little we have.

Year Ten - s**t there's more deer than people, the freeloading deer are eating all our food and there is not enought oatmeal for little Billy.

Year 15 - The first children born to this society who have never tasted meat are getting bored with hoeing the fields and chasing deer away and decide to take matters into their own hands (think Children of the Corn) and start to kill the deer and build campfires. Young Billy gets the bright idea to take a hunk of deer flesh, put it on a stick and see if will burn (kids will be kids). It smells good and the rest is history. The downfall of the Vegan utopia is at hand.

[Reverend_HellH0und]

Winchester wrote: forthegreatergood wrote:
What if one hemisphere was wholly vegetarian, focusing on agriculture and producing and appreciating vegetation and crops, which would help the atmosphere with vegetation/flora's ability to filter/circulate air, as well as other abilities. Creatures called animals would not be eaten. Do you think "animal" creatures behavior and aggression would change knowing that their loved ones were not massacred and born for human consumption?

This is how I see the vegan hemisphere playing out.

Year One - Humans have happy hug fest about how they love animals and won't harm them and will live in peace and harmony and just eat plants. Everyone has a nice euphoric feeling.

Year Two - Humans say wow look at all the new little Bambies aren't they cute and they're only eating a little of our crops, we can share.

Year Five - Damn deer, jumping our fences, eating our baby lettuces, they're getting to be a nuisance, but we do love them and can share what little we have.

Year Ten - s**t there's more deer than people, the freeloading deer are eating all our food and there is not enought oatmeal for little Billy.

Year 15 - The first children born to this society who have never tasted meat are getting bored with hoeing the fields and chasing deer away and decide to take matters into their own hands (think Children of the Corn) and start to kill the deer and build campfires. Young Billy gets the bright idea to take a hunk of deer flesh, put it on a stick and see if will burn (kids will be kids). It smells good and the rest is history. The downfall of the Vegan utopia is at hand.




OWNED.

[mathurin]

jasonireland wrote: they refute the claims because they cannot take a dent to their pride, frustrated with a lifestyle choice that is being presented to you as environmentally damaging, unethical towards animals and ultimately replacable with a proven healthier, more sustainable alternative diet, namely veganism.you cannot face up to it.


we refute them because they are in general false, and we laugh at you becuase you believe them, pride has nothing to do with it, your ignorance does

jasonireland wrote:
you take a position of defence,feeling like you are being attacked just because someone else tells you what their diet is.and that (!) its actually possible to survive on it too.


but you are attacking our diet, your every word is an attempt to prove lies simply because you dont understand what you are talking about

jasonireland wrote:
if you want to be added to that list of people who cannot face the facts well then yes i`ll add you, but its your choice.

you would be on the list of people who cannot face facts, go ahead, hide in your vegan propaganda

[perdidochas]

forthegreatergood wrote: Quote: Go team Omni eaters :wink:

source: http://www.veg.ca/newsletr/janfeb97/athlete.html

Vegetarian diet for athletes
by Dr. Benjamin Spock

Fortunately, today we have the information as well as the testimonies of many athletes to substantiate the benefits of plant-based diets. Dave Scott, considered to be the world's greatest triathlete, holds a degree in exercise physiology. In his own words, it's a "ridiculous fallacy" to think that athletes need animal protein. He is joined in his views by such Olympians as Edwin Moses, the gold medalist who went eight years without losing the 400-meter hurdle competition, and Murray Rose who, at age 17, won three gold medals in the Olympic swim competition.Dave Scott, six-time Ironman Triathlon winner

This year, I was glad to see Olympic champion Carl Lewis crown his career with his best long jump in two years to win a record-tying ninth gold medal. Lewis, of course, is a longtime vegetarian [vegan] whose dietary changes developed out of his moral and religious convictions. Several years ago Leroy Burrell and Carl Lewis traded titles back and forth when they were being hailed as the fastest sprinters in the world - both were vegetarians.

Whether you are a world class athlete, a weekend athlete, or simply a recreational exerciser, we now know that you can meet your performance objectives, and improve your health by eating a plant-based diet that meets your energy needs. Even at my present age, 93, I found that switching to a plant-based diet improved my health dramatically.

Dr. Benjamin Spock, New Century Nutrition, Sept. 1996

Dr. Spock is a fallible reference,. In the 1960s, he promoted discipline free parenting. He has since said he was wrong.

[jasonireland]

so you continually discredit facts, refute evidence and call me ignorant, well i am going to have to keep showing you i Do know what I am talking about until you cannot deny it anymore.

Dr Spock may an unreliable source but Carl Lewis still broke records while on a vegan diet. google it and you will get a wealth of info on that subject.

alot of info here take your time to read it all and don't skip over the facts.....


list of vegan/vegetarian athletes.......some with titles and championship winners

Hank Aaron (home run champion in major league baseball) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
B J Armstrong (US Basketball star)
Al Beckles (body builder)
Sorya Bonali (ice skater)
Les Brown (veteran runner)
Peter Burwash (tennis)
Andreas Cahling (body builder)
Andreas Cahling (bodybuilder)
Chris Campbell (1980 world champion wrestler)
Joanna Conway (ice skater)
Sylvia Cranston (triathlete)
Sally Eastall (Marathon runner - UK No 2, vegan)
Di Edwards (runner, Olympic semi-finalist)
Katie Fitzgibbon (marathon runner)
Clare Francis (sailer)
Louis Freitas (body builder)
Carol Gould (marathon runner)
Estelle Gray (cyclist) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Sammy Green (runner)
Ruth Heidrich (3-time Ironman finisher, marathoner, age-group record holder, Pres. Vegetarian Society of Honolulu) (vegan) Source: personal acquaintance, also...her book--A Race for Life
Sally Hibberd (British Women's Mountain Bike Champion)
Sharon Hounsell (Miss Wales Bodybuilding Champion)
Desmond Howard (formerly w/Washington Redskins, now w/Jacksonville Jaguars) Source: PETA mailer
Roger Hughes (Welsh National Ski Champion)
David Johnson (BAA coach)
Kathy Johnson (Olympic Gymnast)
Alan Jones (British ski jumper)
Billie Jean King (tennis champion) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Killer Kowalski (wrestler) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Jack LaLanne (Fitness guru) (vegan)
Donnie LaLonde (Former Light Heavyweight Champion of the World. (Lost title to Sugar Ray Leonard)) Source: Article in San Jose Mercury News
Tony LaRussa (Manager of St. Louis Cardinals - US team) Source: PETA, Animals Agenda, Animals Voice, Veg Times, others
Silken Laumann (Olympic rower) Source: Cooking Television Show
Judy Leden (British, European & World Hang Gliding champion)
Marv Levey (Buffalo Bills Coach)
Jutta Müller (multiple Windsurfing World Cup Champion) Source: Flutlicht 95/6/18 on Südwest 3 (German TV program)
Jack Maitland (triathlete and fell runner)
Cheryl Marek (cyclist) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Leslie Marx (fencer;1996 woman's epee national champion)
Kirsty McDermott (runner)
Lindford McFarquar (body builder)
Robert Millar (cyclist)
Katherine Monbiot (world champion arm wrestler and nutritionist) (vegan) Source: The Vegan Society UK
Monika Montsho (weightlifter, 2 x runnerup GB Championships 60kg, NW woman weightlifter of the year 1991)
Edwin Moses
Martina Navratilova (Retired Tennis Champion) Source: Magazine Interviews/Genesis Awards
Julie Ann Niewiek (Basketball commentator) Source: Grand Rapids press/ Image Magazine
Paavo Nurmi
Robert Parish (Center - Warriors, Celtics, Hornets, Bulls) Source: Hearsay
Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder, Mr America) Source: Getting Stronger by Bill Pearl, pg 399
Bill Pearl (Mr. Universe and bodybuilder) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Anthony Peeler (NBA Grizzlies basketball player) Source: NBA web site profiles
Dave Scott (five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) (vegan) "The New Laurel's Kitchen" cookbook
Debbie Spaeth-Herring (Georgia State power-lifter) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
Jonathon Speelman (chess)
Lucy Stephens (triathlete - vegan)
Jacques Vaughn (All American point guard, #1-ranked Univ of KS Jayhawks) Source: Lawrence (KS) Journal World (numerous editions)
Kirsty Wade (runner)
Bill Walton (basketball player) Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian

surely they all cant be as misled as I am?

and here is a testimonial from another successful athlete....

Professional Ironman Triathlete Brendan Brazier
Submitted by robert on July 2nd, 2005. Vegan Athletes | Extras
Brendan Brazier

Professional Ironman Triathlete



Height: 6’ 2”
Weight: 168
Age: 30

Reason for becoming vegan:

Athletic performance. Most think I continue to improve as an athlete at a fast rate in spite of being vegan – that’s not the case. A highly alkaline, easily digestible, mostly raw diet is without a doubt the best diet for performance. Then of course there are all the other reasons; environmental, ethical, political. Those can’t be ignored once you start to learn more.

Favorite thing about being vegan?

Better athletic performance. Nutritionally, therefore physically, of course that’s clear, but also mentally. Just knowing that I’m not contributing to so many things that I dislike makes living easier.

Favorite foods to eat?

Apples, hemp, chlorella, spinach, mangos.

Brief training history?

Started running in 1989, cycling in 1990 and swimming in 1992.

Brief contest result history?

2003 Canadian 50km Ultra Marathon Champion 2002 8th Ironman Utah 2001 3rd in Canadian Long course triathlon Championship 2001 11th Ironman Canada 1999 3rd Royal Victoria Marathon (2:29 Personal best time) 1998 2rd Royal Victoria Marathon

and here is another......

Vegan athletes - strong, fast and healthy
Posted on Tuesday, November 27 @ 13:07:09 CST by Sergio


In an average week, vegetarian athlete Dom Repta runs 100 to 200 kilometres, swims 2,000 to 5,000 metres and cycles 40 to 150 kilometres.
He's an ultra-marathon racer, running 100 miles in 19 hours and 50 minutes in his last race. In 2003, he plans to run across the Sahara Desert in six days. This in addition to studying for a master's degree in environmental science and working at Forerunners running store in Kitsilano.

Oh, and did we mention he's not just a vegetarian? He's been vegan for the past seven years and bans all animal products from his diet.

Repta, 28, is one of the growing number of vegetarians who are proving a meatless diet doesn't sap strength and energy.

"I talk to a lot of men who don't think they can be strong athletically if they don't eat animal protein," he says. "They think they'll lose muscle, weight, endurance."

To counter misperceptions about vegetarianism and athletic performance, Repta, along with three of North America's elite vegetarian athletes, (tennis pro Peter Burwash, endurance runner Scott Jurel and triathlete Brendan Brazier) will be speaking Dec. 1 at a seminar called Eating for Performance. Also speaking is Dr. Emily Cooper, a medical director at Prevention Solutions Clinic in Seattle.

"How can you argue with the great results I'm getting?" Repta asks. "Here are four successful athletes, getting stronger and stronger as they get older."

and below are examples of various studies on the issue of health done by universities around the world, ive highlighted the results if you do not have the time or patience to read them thoroughly....

this from two internationally renound and established Health Groups

J Am Diet Assoc 2003 Jun;
Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets.

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States and 4% of adults in Canada follow vegetarian diets.

A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat, fish, or fowl. Interest in vegetarianism appears to be increasing, with many restaurants and college foodservices offering vegetarian meals routinely. Substantial growth in sales of foods attractive to vegetarians has occurred, and these foods appear in many supermarkets. This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine.

A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals.

Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer. Although a number of federally funded and institutional feeding programs can accommodate vegetarians, few have foods suitable for vegans at this time. Because of the variability of dietary practices among vegetarians, individual assessment of dietary intakes of vegetarians is required. Dietetics professionals have a responsibility to support and encourage those who express an interest in consuming a vegetarian diet. They can play key roles in educating vegetarian clients about food sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and any dietary modifications that may be necessary to meet individual needs. Menu planning for vegetarians can be simplified by use of a food guide that specifies food groups and serving sizes.


a study on calcium........

Calcium balance in young adults on a vegan and lactovegetarian diet.
Kohlenberg-Mueller K, Raschka L. University of Applied Sciences, Marquardstrasse 35, D-36039 Fulda, Germany.
For people in Western countries, the vegan diet has the advantage of low energy intake, but the calcium status of this strictly plant-based diet is still unclear. The aim of this study was to determine the calcium balance of individuals on a vegan diet in comparison with a lactovegetarian diet in a short-term investigation. Seven women and one man, ranging in age from 19 to 24 years, received during the first 10 days a vegan diet based on plant foods and calcium-rich mineral water and a lactovegetarian diet during the following 10 days. Portion size was adapted to the subjects' individual energy requirements. Calcium status was assessed by means of calcium intake in food and calcium output in feces and urine as measured by flame atomic absorption spectrophotometry. In addition, deoxypyridinoline was measured in urine as a marker of bone resorption. The results show a significantly smaller daily calcium intake with an average of 843 +/- 140 mg in the vegan versus 1322 +/- 303 mg in the lactovegetarian diet. Apparent calcium absorption rates were calculated as 26% +/- 15% in the vegan and 24% +/- 8% in the lactovegetarian group (NS). The calcium balance was positive both in the vegan diet (119 +/- 113 mg/day) and in the lactovegetarian diet (211 +/- 136 mg/day) (NS). Deoxypyridinoline excretion showed no significant difference between the two diets (105 +/- 31 and 98 +/- 23 nmol/day). The present results indicate that calcium balance and a marker of bone turnover are not affected significantly when calcium is provided either solely by plant foods or by a diet including dairy products, despite the significantly different calcium intake levels in the diets. We conclude that a well-selected vegan diet maintains calcium status, at least for a short-term period.

a study on vegan adolescents.........

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2002 May;156(5):431-7
Comment in: Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2002 May;156(5):426-7.
Adolescent vegetarians: how well do their dietary patterns meet the healthy people 2010 objectives?
Perry CL, McGuire MT, Neumark-Sztainer D, Story M. Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55454, USA. perry@epi.umn.edu
OBJECTIVES: To examine whether adolescent vegetarians were more likely than nonvegetarian peers to meet the dietary recommendations of the Healthy People 2010 objectives and to examine differences in other nutrients between these 2 groups. DESIGN: A total of 4746 adolescents from 31 middle and high schools in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. Data were collected via self-report surveys, with a student response rate of 81.5%.
SETTING: Urban secondary schools.
PARTICIPANTS: Participants were equally divided by sex. The mean age was 14.9 years; 34.3% were in junior high school and 65.7% in high school. The racial/ethnic distribution was 48.5% white, 19.0% African American, 19.2% Asian American, 5.8% Hispanic, 3.5% American Indian, and 3.9% mixed or other.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Questions on vegetarian status and whether particular foods (eggs, dairy foods, chicken, fish) were excluded. Dietary intake was assessed using the Youth and Adolescent Food Frequency Questionnaire.
RESULTS: Vegetarian adolescents were significantly more likely than nonvegetarian adolescents to meet the Healthy People 2010 objectives. This was particularly noteworthy for total fat (70% vs 48%), saturated fat (65% vs 39%), daily servings of vegetables (26% vs 14%), and 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables (39% vs 28%). Vegetarians were also less likely to eat fast food or drink regular soda and fruit drinks. Vegetarians consumed less vitamin B(12), more diet soda, more caffeine, and more iron.
CONCLUSION: Adolescent vegetarians have a dietary pattern that is more likely than nonvegetarians to meet the Healthy People 2010 objectives.


a study on parkinsons discease.........

Med Hypotheses 2001 Sep;57(3):318-23
Does a vegan diet reduce risk for Parkinson's disease?
McCarty MF. Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California 92109, USA.
Three recent case-control studies conclude that diets high in animal fat or cholesterol are associated with a substantial increase in risk for Parkinson's disease (PD); in contrast, fat of plant origin does not appear to increase risk. Whereas reported age-adjusted prevalence rates of PD tend to be relatively uniform throughout Europe and the Americas, sub-Saharan black Africans, rural Chinese, and Japanese, groups whose diets tend to be vegan or quasi-vegan, appear to enjoy substantially lower rates. Since current PD prevalence in African-Americans is little different from that in whites, environmental factors are likely to be responsible for the low PD risk in black Africans. In aggregate, these findings suggest that vegan diets may be notably protective with respect to PD. However, they offer no insight into whether saturated fat, compounds associated with animal fat, animal protein, or the integrated impact of the components of animal products mediates the risk associated with animal fat consumption. Caloric restriction has recently been shown to protect the central dopaminergic neurons of mice from neurotoxins, at least in part by induction of heat-shock proteins; conceivably, the protection afforded by vegan diets reflects a similar mechanism. The possibility that vegan diets could be therapeutically beneficial in PD, by slowing the loss of surviving dopaminergic neurons, thus retarding progression of the syndrome, may merit examination. Vegan diets could also be helpful to PD patients by promoting vascular health and aiding blood-brain barrier transport of L-dopa.
PMID: 11516224

hmmm this conclusion is interesting.....

Eur J Clin Nutr 2000 May;54(5):443-9
Nutritional intakes of vegetarian populations in France.
Leblanc JC, Yoon H, Kombadjian A, Verger P. Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Laboratoire de Biologie et Nutrition Humaine, 16 rue Claude Bernard 75005 Paris, France.
OBJECTIVE: To assess food behaviour and determine nutritional intakes of various vegetarian populations in France.
DESIGN: A five-day self-administered food record which was mailed to members of the three principal French vegetarian organisations. SUBJECTS: 145 subjects, aged 7-87 y; 94 classical vegetarians (19% of those contacted), 34 Hindu lactovegetarians (17% of those contacted) and 17 macrobiotic (34% of those contacted). SETTING: The survey was conducted between March 1997 and July 1997 in France.
RESULTS: Vegetarianism in France is represented by three main classes of food behaviour: ovolactovegetarian (AAV), lactovegetarian (KRI) and macrobiotic (MMK). The geometric mean intakes ranged from 1952 kcal/d (KRI), 2051 kcal/d (MMK) to 2384 kcal/d (AAV) for males and from 1302 kcal/d (MMK), 1675 kcal/d (AAV) to 1804 kcal/d (KRI) for females, after adjusting for age and BMI. The energy consumption in the MMK group was significantly lower than that in the AAV (P<0.05) and KRI groups (P<0.01), respectively. A difference among groups was observed for females (P=0.0002), but not for males. The MMK group consumed less lipid than the other two vegetarian groups, 46 g/d for men and 38 g/d for women vs 80 g/d for men and 61 g/d for women in the AAV group and 93 g/d for men and 81 g/d for women in the KRI group, respectively. Differences with AAV and MMK were statistically significant (P<0.001 for men and women for both groups). Mean protein consumption ranged from 60 g/d (AAV), 64 g/d (KRI) to 77 g/d (MMK) for males and from 46 g/d (MMK), 50 g/d (AAV) to 58 g/d (KRI) for females. Mean carbohydrate intakes ranged from 247 g/d (AAV), 321 g/d (KRI) to 338 g/d (MMK) in males and from 209 g/d (MMK), 228 g/d (AAV) to 242 g/d (KRI) in females. There were no significant differences in protein and carbohydrate intakes between the groups. Median calcium intakes ranged from 758.2 mg/d (MMK), 863 mg/d (AAV) to 989.3 mg/d (KRI) for the men and from 500.8 mg/d (MMK), 863 mg/d (AAV) to 934 mg/d (KRI) for the women. In the men, there was no differences in daily calcium intakes between the three vegetarian groups. However, we found a significant difference for women (P=0. 0041). The women in the MMK group presented significantly lower daily calcium intakes than the women in the AAV (P=0.013) and KRI (P=0.0032) groups. The AAV and KRI groups consumed dairy products supplying respectively 36% and 53% for the men and 39% and 59% for the women of total calcium against 0% for men and women in the MMK group. Median iron intakes ranged between 12.5 mg/d (KRI), 13.2 mg/d (AAV) and 22.5 mg/d (MMK) for the men and between 11.2 mg/d (KRI), 14.6 mg/d (AAV) and 16.9 mg/d (MMK) for the women. MMK (men P=0.0172 and women P=0.0131) and AAV (only in men P=0.037) groups consumed significantly higher quantities of iron than did the KRI group. The heme iron median intake in males and females of the three vegetarian groups was very low (<0.5%). Overall, the female vegetarians consumed 58.1 (MMK), 109 (AAV) and 127.4 (KRI) mg of vitamin C per day and the males 76.3 (MMK), 150.4 (AAV) and 150.4 (KRI) mg per day. Median vitamin B9 intakes ranged from 247.5 microg/d (KRI), 312 microg/d (MMK) to 390.4 microg/d (AAV) for the men and from 188.3 microg/d (MMK), 266.9 microg/d (KRI) to 323.8 microg/d (AAV) for the women. Vitamin B12 consumption ranged from 0.2 microg/d (MMK), 1.5 microg/d (AAV) to 1.7 microg/d (KRI) in the women and from 0.6 microg/d (MMK) to 1.0 microg/d (AAV and KRI) in the men. No differences in consumption were observed in the males. On the other hand, the women in the MMK group consumed significantly less vitamin C and B12 than did the women in the AAV (P=0.0006) and KRI (P=0. 0396) groups, while it was at the limit of significance for the females (P=0.0715) for vitamin B9.
CONCLUSION: Our results suggest that vegetarians have a better understanding of dietary requirements than does the general population. (ABSTRACT TRUNCATED)

another interesting study

Nutrition 1999 Jun;15(6):488-98
Nutritional characteristics of wild primate foods: do the diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us? Milton K. Department of Environmental Science, Policy, and Management, University of California, Berkeley 94720-3140, USA. kmilton@socrates.berkeley.edu
The widespread prevalence of diet-related health problems, particularly in highly industrialized nations, suggests that many humans are not eating in a manner compatible with their biology. Anthropoids, including all great apes, take most of their diet from plants, and there is general consensus that humans come from a strongly herbivorous ancestry. Though gut proportions differ, overall gut anatomy and the pattern of digestive kinetics of extant apes and humans are very similar. Analysis of tropical forest leaves and fruits routinely consumed by wild primates shows that many of these foods are good sources of hexoses, cellulose, hemicellulose, pectic substances, vitamin C, minerals, essential fatty acids, and protein. In general, relative to body weight, the average wild monkey or ape appears to take in far higher levels of many essential nutrients each day than the average American and such nutrients (as well as other substances) are being consumed together in their natural chemical matrix. The recommendation that Americans consume more fresh fruits and vegetables in greater variety appears well supported by data on the diets of free-ranging monkeys and apes. Such data also suggest that greater attention to features of the diet and digestive physiology of non-human primates could direct attention to important areas for future research on features of human diet and health.

PMID: 10378206

Bol Asoc Med P R 1998 Apr-Jun;90(4-6):58-68
[Indicators of anxiety and depression in subjects with different kinds of diet: vegetarians and omnivores]. [Article in Spanish]
Rodriguez Jimenez J, Rodriguez JR, Gonzalez MJ Centro Caribeno de Estudios Postgraduados (CCEP), UPR.

a study on depression.....


The following study, one of the first done in Puerto Rico, investigate the different kinds of diet and the level of anxiety and depression that the subjects present. The sample consists of 80 subjects between 25 and 70 years age divided into two main groups (vegetarian versus no vegetarian) depending their diet consumption. The basic findings in the three psychological tests given (IDARE-1, IDARE-2 and CES-D) to the subjects demonstrate significant differences in anxiety and depression between groups. More anxiety and depression where reported in the no vegetarian groups in comparison with the vegetarian groups. In addition, diet analysis found more nutritional antioxidant agents levels in the vegetarian group in comparison with the no-vegetarian group.
PMID: 9866269


a study on dioxin levels in vegan diets

Chemosphere 1997 Mar-Apr;34(5-7):1437-47
Levels of dioxins, dibenzofurans, PCB and DDE congeners in pooled food samples collected in 1995 at supermarkets across the United States.
Schecter A, Cramer P, Boggess K, Stanley J, Olson JR Department of Preventive Medicine, State University of New York, Health Science Center-Syracuse, Binghamton 13903, USA.
Food, particularly dairy products, meat, and fish, has been identified as the primary immediate source of intake of polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins (PCDDs), polychlorinated dibenzofurans (PCDFs), and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) for the general population. We previously reported PCDD/Fs in individual analyses of food samples from a number of countries, including the U.S., the former Soviet Union, and Vietnam. We also previously estimated daily intake of dioxins and related chemicals in Americans at various ages in these reports. In this paper, the levels of dioxins, dibenzofurans, dioxin toxic equivalents (TEQs), selected dioxin-like PCBs, and DDE (a persistent metabolite of DDT) were measured in 12 pooled food samples from over 90 individual specimens collected from supermarkets throughout the United States during 1995. Samples were pooled by food groups and then analyzed. Food samples were collected in Binghamton, New York; Atlanta, Georgia; Chicago, Illinois; San Diego, California; and Louisville, Kentucky. In addition to the meat, dairy, and fish samples, a vegan (all vegetable, fruit and grain, no animal product) diet, was simulated; this showed the lowest level of dioxins.

a study on dementia.....

Neuroepidemiology 1993;12(1):28-36
The incidence of dementia and intake of animal products: preliminary findings from the Adventist Health Study.
Giem P, Beeson WL, Fraser GE Department of Preventive Medicine, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, CA 92350.
We investigated the relationship between animal product consumption and evidence of dementia in two cohort substudies. The first enrolled 272 California residents matched for age, sex, and zip code (1 vegan, 1 lacto-ovo-vegetarian, and 2 'heavy' meat eaters in each of 68 quartets). This design ensured a wide range of dietary exposure. The second included 2,984 unmatched subjects who resided within the Loma Linda, California area. All subjects were enrolled in the Adventist Health Study. The matched subjects who ate meat (including poultry and fish) were more than twice as likely to become demented as their vegetarian counterparts (relative risk 2.18, p = 0.065) and the discrepancy was further widened (relative risk 2.99, p = 0.048) when past meat consumption was taken into account. There was no significant difference in the incidence of dementia in the vegetarian versus meat-eating unmatched subjects. There was no obvious explanation for the difference between the two substudies, although the power of the unmatched sub-study to detect an effect of 'heavy' meat consumption was unexpectedly limited. There was a trend towards delayed onset of dementia in vegetarians in both substudies.
PMID: 8327020

another study............


Am J Clin Nutr 1988 Sep;48(3 Suppl):712-38
Health aspects of vegetarian diets.
Dwyer JT. Tufts University School of Medicine, New England Medical Center Hospital, Boston, MA 02111.
Recent studies of vegetarian diets and their effects on morbidity and mortality are reviewed. Vegetarian diets are heterogeneous as are their effects on nutritional status, health, and longevity. Mortality rates are similar or lower for vegetarians than for nonvegetarians. Risks of dietary deficiency disease are increased on vegan but not on all vegetarian diets. Evidence for decreased risks for certain chronic degenerative diseases varies. Both vegetarian dietary and lifestyle practices are involved. Data are strong that vegetarians are at lesser risk for obesity, atonic constipation, lung cancer, and alcoholism. Evidence is good that risks for hypertension, coronary artery disease, type II diabetes, and gallstones are lower. Data are only fair to poor that risks of breast cancer, diverticular disease of the colon, colonic cancer, calcium kidney stones, osteoporosis, dental erosion, and dental caries are lower among vegetarians. Reduced risks for chronic degenerative diseases can also be achieved by manipulations of omnivorous diets and lifestyles.

PMID: 3046302

this article is from the Physicians Commitee for Responsible Medecine founded in 1985

The Dairy/Weight-Loss Deception
Despite dairy industry claims, scientific studies actually show that adding dairy products to the diet does nothing for weight control. If anything, milk contributes to weight gain. Three very recent studies, one at the University of Vermont, another at Purdue University, and the third just published in the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine, reconfirm these findings.

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is urging the federal government to put an end to false and misleading claims by dairy product manufacturers that contend milk consumption promotes weight and fat loss. PCRM is also taking legal action against companies and dairy trade groups making these false claims.



Now , surely if you have read all of that above you must admit there must be at least one or two benefits being vegetarian/vegan......



These are independent studies carried out in universities, what more do you need? do I seem as ignorant now?

heres more, from a national american newspaper....

Vegetarian diet on solid ground, experts say
Posted on Sunday, December 09 @ 22:56:02 CST by Sergio


One more pro vegetarian article from non vegetarian source, it's from usatoday :
"The federal government and the American Dietetic Association have reported that vegetarian diets are nutritionally sound," says Neal Barnard, president of Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a non-profit organization that focuses on preventive medicine.

Studies have found that vegetarians actually get far better nutrition than non-vegetarians, Barnard says. And vegetarians get larger amounts of fiber, iron, many vitamins and other cancer-fighting compounds than meat eaters.

"Almost all of our essential nutrients come from plants," says John McDougall, a physician and founder of the McDougall Plan for Healthy Living. "Plants make 11 of 13 known vitamins. B-12 made by bacteria is the only vitamin inadequately supplied by a plant-based diet."

So swapping meat for vegetables is OK. But what about dairy products and eggs?

"Dairy is 'liquid meat,'" McDougall says. "Compare the macronutrients of cheese and beef — they are the same. Both contain similar amounts of cholesterol, fat and animal protein, and both are deficient in fiber, vitamin C and carbohydrates."

McDougall also asserts that milk and egg proteins are the most common causes of food allergies.

So what does the would-be vegetarian need to know to get started on a new eating regimen?

First of all, the person should be educated about basic nutritional requirements, says Samuel Klein, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis.

"They need to be sure that they are getting adequate amounts of calcium, zinc, iron and vitamin D and are taking a supplement if needed," Klein says. "Fortified cereals, breads and orange juice could all be sources of these minerals and vitamins."

Klein, an expert on obesity, says less than 30% of calories in a person's diet should come from fat and less than 10% should be from saturated fat.

Barnard adds that vegetarians should take a B-12 vitamin supplement.

In short, new vegetarians can rest easy that their change in dietary direction is a safe one, experts say.

"Anyone planning to remain on a meaty diet should certainly see their doctor and perhaps a dietitian to try to plan for better nutrition," Barnard says.

more from a non vegan source......

Animal-Based Nutrients Linked With Higher Risk Of Stomach And Esophageal Cancers
Posted on Tuesday, November 06 @ 08:32:36 CST by Sergio


Sciencedaily have an interesting article about what we all know for long time :) - meat is not good for health. But importance of this article is that it's not from a vegetarian/vegan source. (AFAIK Sciencedaily is not a vegetarian site)
Here are few interesting quotes:

Yale School of Medicine researchers have found that a diet high in cholesterol, animal protein and vitamin B12 is linked to risk of a specific type of cancer of the stomach and esophagus that has been increasing rapidly.
The researchers also found that plant-based nutrients such as dietary fiber, dietary beta-carotene, folic acid, vitamin C and vitamin B6 were associated with lower risk of these kinds of cancers. They further found that regular use of vitamin C supplements was associated with a 40 percent reduction in the risk of cancer in the middle and lower parts of the stomach

The rate of a specific type of esophageal and stomach cancer, known as adenocarcinoma of the esophagus and gastric cardia, has increased by 300 percent since the mid-1970s, according to lead author Susan Mayne, associate professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Public Health at Yale School of Medicine, and associate director of the Yale Cancer Center.



on dairy products check out www.notmik.com i was going to paste articles from there but there are too many. its up to you whether you want to learn more or not.....

have i just posted the longest post ?!?

if you still consider a vegan/vegetarian diet as malnourished, silly, selfish ignorant, proproganda based(these are all your words not mine) well now might be a good time to reconsider.

[mathurin]

jasonireland wrote: surely they all cant be as misled as I am?

yes, surely you have cults in ireland, heard of WACO?
at least 80 people were misled enough to die



i have never stated one way or another if vegans, but as you have in the past claimed opinions as facts i wonder at your ability to determine facts from propaganda

[jasonireland]

mathurin Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mathurin wrote:
"yes, surely you have cults in ireland, heard of WACO?
at least 80 people were misled enough to die"

-by saying i am misled i was being sarcastic, its a pity sarcasm doesnt display itself on text that well.

that comparison to a cult is funny. so are you. yes, sure vegans are dropping like flies because they being misled. whats your point? there are millions of vegans worldwide, its not a cult, its an awareness.

mathurin wrote:
"i have never stated one way or another if vegans, but as you have in the past claimed opinions as facts i wonder at your ability to determine facts from propaganda "

-The first half of that sentence is confusing, could you elaborate.

-I think I have enough of an ability to determine facts, I am healthy and content with the choices I Imake because of my weeding out the facts from the proproganda.

The meat and diary industry have huge political clout, and a massive lobby making sure their "interests" are heard.For example a poster on this thread, Reverend Bloodhound, actually stated that eating lean meat would reduce the chance of disease, even more so than vegetables. Now, where do you think he read that lie?

The vegan and health food industry has hardly any political backing at all, yet they are growing every year. People are waking up, there is only so many facts, books, or documentaries you can watch before you realise the meat and diary industry pollutes peoples diets with lies.

I have posted a huge amount of material above to back this theory up, contrary to what the meat and diary industry tells you, it is possible to live on a vegan/vegetarian diet and be healthy or even be a record breaking athlete.

I can keep digging for more and more evidence if you want me to.

[jasonireland]

mathurin, i know you have alot more debate left in you, how are those cows doing anyway?

[thintheherd]

If you're looking to convert, it's my opinion that you are moo'ing up the wrong tree.

Anyone that thinks people, who are comfortable eating meat, are somehow frustrated and fear some mythical dents in their pride, just doesn't get it.

Keep trying though- That's entertainment :lol:

[mathurin]

sorry, never noticed your reply, sometimes my work schedule requires i skip a day or 2 on the forums
jasonireland wrote: mathurin Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mathurin wrote:
"yes, surely you have cults in ireland, heard of WACO?
at least 80 people were misled enough to die"

-by saying i am misled i was being sarcastic, its a pity sarcasm doesnt display itself on text that well.

that comparison to a cult is funny. so are you. yes, sure vegans are dropping like flies because they being misled. whats your point? there are millions of vegans worldwide, its not a cult, its an awareness.


i knew you were being sarcastic, so was i, to an extent

i am certain that those in WACO would have told you "its not a cult, its an awareness"
so that doesnt really cover it either



jasonireland wrote:
mathurin wrote:
"i have never stated one way or another if vegans, but as you have in the past claimed opinions as facts i wonder at your ability to determine facts from propaganda "

-The first half of that sentence is confusing, could you elaborate.

-I think I have enough of an ability to determine facts, I am healthy and content with the choices I Imake because of my weeding out the facts from the proproganda.

The meat and diary industry have huge political clout, and a massive lobby making sure their "interests" are heard.For example a poster on this thread, Reverend Bloodhound, actually stated that eating lean meat would reduce the chance of disease, even more so than vegetables. Now, where do you think he read that lie?

yeah, the first one was a sentence i never completed
i never stated nor cared about the health benefits or consequences of either diet, people have been relatively healthy on a reasonable diet for years



jasonireland wrote:
The vegan and health food industry has hardly any political backing at all, yet they are growing every year. People are waking up, there is only so many facts, books, or documentaries you can watch before you realise the meat and diary industry pollutes peoples diets with lies.

I have posted a huge amount of material above to back this theory up, contrary to what the meat and diary industry tells you, it is possible to live on a vegan/vegetarian diet and be healthy or even be a record breaking athlete.

I can keep digging for more and more evidence if you want me to.

for a group with hardly any backing they sure get alot of publicity and money, as well as make enough canned factoids for you guys to continually spew

my info about animals themselves comes from direct contact, no company said anything

and i have shot a huge amount of material down

is it possible, probably, generally you need to watch your nutrition more
regardless, on the health side it is your choice, i dont care, i support allowing people to do drugs if they wish, you are certainly free to determine what goes on my plate



http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/4314.htm
PETAs revenue
28,000,000
dont try to tell me they dont have money behind them



also, thintheherd rather hit the nail on the head, no dents to pride, just inner amusement at your implications of them

[jasonireland]

trying to convert? i would never try in a million years, you dont believe anything i say anyway.
people do not like being presented with a truth that is harsh to them and they are part of.