Political Crossfire Forums

[perdidochas]

buddha wrote: perdidochas wrote:
Hunter gatherers worked an average of 600 hours a year hunting and gathering. The early farmers worked an average of 2000 hrs a year farming.


Were did you get those figures? From the book Guns, Germs, and Steel the reason for moving from being hunter gathers to being agrarian was that more food could be produced with less effort.

The figures are based on existing hunter-gatherer tribes. Also, I had a professor who lived a year with the Inuit. It was his claim as well.

The main advantage of being agrarian is security (food storage) and not having to move every couple of weeks.

[buddha]

perdidochas wrote:
The figures are based on existing hunter-gatherer tribes. Also, I had a professor who lived a year with the Inuit. It was his claim as well.

The main advantage of being agrarian is security (food storage) and not having to move every couple of weeks.

So you can't give me a study to look up, or a book.

[jasonireland]

the original discussion was degenerating there (speculation, pride and too many opinions , too little facts) for a while so here i come with some facts, please read all of them carefully and hopefully then you will know enough about the issue to have an intelligent debate on it.most of my sources are from www.vegansociety.com feel free to chase them!!

ok the first most obvious point i must make is
1.COMMENT
hunter gatherers gathered food such as nuts and vegetables they didnt spend all their time just hunting animals, if so they would of been called, simply, hunters. so you cannot compare the figures of hours.

2.FACT
you can be a vegan and be healthy, you do not need to eat an animal to survive. Buddhist monks are vegan and live healthy lives.

3.OPINION
when i became vegan i had to work 70 hours a week in carpentry , i had more energy and longer concentration( to their confusion) than the rest of the team due to their bodies processing and breaking down meat(fatty) and dairy(lactose digestion) products, instead of the simple biological process of a vegan diet.

4.FACT
Meat and dairy production is an inefficient use of land, food and water. It has been estimated that for every kilogram of meat protein produced, farmed animals are fed nearly 6kg of plant protein.
The meat-intensive diets of the developed world contribute to global warming, deforestation, desertification and water pollution.
There is a serious lack of energy resources in the world. Wars are started over this issue. being vegan , you consume 16 times less energy than a meat eater. If people consumed less energy the world would be a better place. Now before you jump the gun, i'm not saying everyone should be vegan, merely suggesting the more people that do, the better for the environment. This cannot be denied.

5.FACT
The vast majority of farmed animals spend their brief lives in cramped, distressing conditions. Their close confinement and the overworking of their bodies lead to increased susceptibility to injury and disease. They are reared on an unnatural diet designed to increase productivity and many undergo various painful and traumatic procedures.

6.FACT
Dairy cows and laying hens are amongst the most ill treated of all farmed animals. With their bodies viewed as no more than factories for food production, they are often overworked and neglected. When they have been worked to the point of exhaustion, they end their days in the same way as those raised solely for the meat trade - no farm animal can avoid the slaughterhouse

7.FACT
Every year farmers in the UK spread about 80 million tonnes of animal manures and other organic farm wastes on to the land as fertiliser. Much of this runs off into nearby rivers or streams, endangering the health of fish and other animals in the area.

8.FACT
In a world where every year 6 million children under the age of 5 die as a result of hunger and malnutrition, the meat-intensive diets of the western world represent a tragic misuse of limited planetary resources

9.FACT
How many times have you been told to eat more fruit and veg? Contrast this with how many times you've been told to eat more burgers...

10.FUNNY FACT
Dont you think its a bit wierd that we drink cows milk. I mean how`d that come about? I thought cows milk was for calves! Wouldn't it be weird if you saw a small dog trying to drink cows milk of a cows teet? Isnt that unnatural? Do you think nature intended humans to approach a perplexed cow a start pulling at its teet drinking its milk? Humans are supposed to ( as babies anyway) drink HUMAN MILK. you dont see calves sucking off your mothers tit now , do you?

11.FACT
Dairy products are not the best source of calcium as they cause calcium losses at the same time as providing calcium. A third of the calcium absorbed from milk and more than two thirds of the calcium absorbed from cheese is wasted in this way. In contrast, green leafy vegetables such as kale and spring greens provide plenty of well absorbed calcium while at the same time reducing calcium losses.
Our prehistoric ancestors obtained abundant calcium from plant foods while dairy products are a recent and unnecessary innovation. A diet based on Vegan Society recommendations will have abundant amounts of calcium and potassium along with plenty of vitamin K - a key nutrient for bone health which is notably missing from milk but plentiful in green leafy vegetables

12.FACT
Decades of experience, culminating in more than a million vegans today, have shown that appropriate vegan diets support good health at all stages of life and reduce the risk of heart disease. This has been confirmed by independent scientific studies.

13.FACT
A study conducted by the US Department of Agriculture concluded that their results "pointedly reveal the high level of dependency of the US beef cattle industry on fossil fuels. These findings in turn bring into question the ecological and economic risks associated with the current technology driving North American agriculture

14.FACT
World livestock production exceeds 21 billion animals each year. The earth's livestock population is more then three and a half times its human population.

15.FIGURES

Food Land per kg - Calories per kilogram - Land per person per year
(m2).. (m2)
Beef 20.9 , 2800, 8173,
Pork 8.9 , 3760 , 2592 ,
Eggs 3.5 , 1600, 2395 ,
Milk 1.2 , 640 , 2053 ,
Fruit 0.5 , 400 , 1369 ,
Vegetables 0.3 , 250 , 1314 ,
Potatoes 0.2 , 800 , 274 ,

16.FACT
The UN Water Assessment Programme states: "At the beginning of the twenty-first century, the Earth, with its diverse and abundant life forms, including over six billion humans, is facing a serious water crisis.

Worldwide, agriculture uses up 70% of fresh water resources.

As has been shown, much of this land is entirely wasted by being used to grow feed crops for livestock rather than food for people. The water used on this land - as well as that consumed directly by livestock - represents yet another wasted resource.

There has been much disagreement over precisely how much water is squandered in this way. Professor David Pimentel of Cornell University's Ecology Department has calculated that it takes 500 litres of water to produce 1kg of potatoes, 900 litres per kg of wheat, 3,500 litres per kg of digestible chicken flesh and a massive 100,000 litres for 1kg of beef. [11]



oke doke then. hope that clears up the debate a bit. i have a wealth of knowledge behind me, so please stop the bashing and consider whats been stated above.

[GTTofAK]

jasonireland wrote: the original discussion was degenerating there (speculation, pride and too many opinions , too little facts) for a while so here i come with some facts, please read all of them carefully and hopefully then you will know enough about the issue to have an intelligent debate on it.most of my sources are from www.vegansociety.com feel free to chase them!!

ok the first most obvious point i must make is
1.COMMENT
hunter gatherers gathered food such as nuts and vegetables they didnt spend all their time just hunting animals, if so they would of been called, simply, hunters. so you cannot compare the figures of hours.

2.FACT
you can be a vegan and be healthy, you do not need to eat an animal to survive. Buddhist monks are vegan and live healthy lives.

3.OPINION
when i became vegan i had to work 70 hours a week in carpentry , i had more energy and longer concentration( to their confusion) than the rest of the team due to their bodies processing and breaking down meat(fatty) and dairy(lactose digestion) products, instead of the simple biological process of a vegan diet.

4.FACT
Meat and dairy production is an inefficient use of land, food and water. It has been estimated that for every kilogram of meat protein produced, farmed animals are fed nearly 6kg of plant protein.
The meat-intensive diets of the developed world contribute to global warming, deforestation, desertification and water pollution.
There is a serious lack of energy resources in the world. Wars are started over this issue. being vegan , you consume 16 times less energy than a meat eater. If people consumed less energy the world would be a better place. Now before you jump the gun, i'm not saying everyone should be vegan, merely suggesting the more people that do, the better for the environment. This cannot be denied.

5.FACT
The vast majority of farmed animals spend their brief lives in cramped, distressing conditions. Their close confinement and the overworking of their bodies lead to increased susceptibility to injury and disease. They are reared on an unnatural diet designed to increase productivity and many undergo various painful and traumatic procedures.

6.FACT
Dairy cows and laying hens are amongst the most ill treated of all farmed animals. With their bodies viewed as no more than factories for food production, they are often overworked and neglected. When they have been worked to the point of exhaustion, they end their days in the same way as those raised solely for the meat trade - no farm animal can avoid the slaughterhouse

7.FACT
Every year farmers in the UK spread about 80 million tonnes of animal manures and other organic farm wastes on to the land as fertiliser. Much of this runs off into nearby rivers or streams, endangering the health of fish and other animals in the area.

8.FACT
In a world where every year 6 million children under the age of 5 die as a result of hunger and malnutrition, the meat-intensive diets of the western world represent a tragic misuse of limited planetary resources

9.FACT
How many times have you been told to eat more fruit and veg? Contrast this with how many times you've been told to eat more burgers...

10.FUNNY FACT
Dont you think its a bit wierd that we drink cows milk. I mean how`d that come about? I thought cows milk was for calves! Wouldn't it be weird if you saw a small dog trying to drink cows milk of a cows teet? Isnt that unnatural? Do you think nature intended humans to approach a perplexed cow a start pulling at its teet drinking its milk? Humans are supposed to ( as babies anyway) drink HUMAN MILK. you dont see calves sucking off your mothers tit now , do you?

11.FACT
Dairy products are not the best source of calcium as they cause calcium losses at the same time as providing calcium. A third of the calcium absorbed from milk and more than two thirds of the calcium absorbed from cheese is wasted in this way. In contrast, green leafy vegetables such as kale and spring greens provide plenty of well absorbed calcium while at the same time reducing calcium losses.
Our prehistoric ancestors obtained abundant calcium from plant foods while dairy products are a recent and unnecessary innovation. A diet based on Vegan Society recommendations will have abundant amounts of calcium and potassium along with plenty of vitamin K - a key nutrient for bone health which is notably missing from milk but plentiful in green leafy vegetables

12.FACT
Decades of experience, culminating in more than a million vegans today, have shown that appropriate vegan diets support good health at all stages of life and reduce the risk of heart disease. This has been confirmed by independent scientific studies.

13.FACT
A study conducted by the US Department of Agriculture concluded that their results "pointedly reveal the high level of dependency of the US beef cattle industry on fossil fuels. These findings in turn bring into question the ecological and economic risks associated with the current technology driving North American agriculture

14.FACT
World livestock production exceeds 21 billion animals each year. The earth's livestock population is more then three and a half times its human population.

15.FIGURES

Food Land per kg - Calories per kilogram - Land per person per year
(m2) (m2)
Beef 20.9 2800 8173
Pork 8.9 3760 2592
Eggs 3.5 1600 2395
Milk 1.2 640 2053
Fruit 0.5 400 1369
Vegetables 0.3 250 1314
Potatoes 0.2 800 274

16.FACT
The UN Water Assessment Programme states: "At the beginning of the twenty-first century, the Earth, with its diverse and abundant life forms, including over six billion humans, is facing a serious water crisis.

Worldwide, agriculture uses up 70% of fresh water resources.

As has been shown, much of this land is entirely wasted by being used to grow feed crops for livestock rather than food for people. The water used on this land - as well as that consumed directly by livestock - represents yet another wasted resource.

There has been much disagreement over precisely how much water is squandered in this way. Professor David Pimentel of Cornell University's Ecology Department has calculated that it takes 500 litres of water to produce 1kg of potatoes, 900 litres per kg of wheat, 3,500 litres per kg of digestible chicken flesh and a massive 100,000 litres for 1kg of beef. [11]



oke doke then. hope that clears up the debate a bit. i have a wealth of knowledge behind me, so please stop the bashing and consider whats been stated above.

Fact all "healthy" vegans rely on modern science to supplement their diets.

[jasonireland]

did you want to add that to my list? . is that the only response you have , what about commenting on the undeniable evidence on the case for veganism above as beneficial for the planet, people and animals? do you agree or disagree with the points being made? the lack of response to so many different points makes me wonder............
its true vegans rely on modern science to supplement their diet. does that harm anyone? is it a reason not be vegan ? how many people dont take any supplements at all, regardless of their diet? and why was the word healthy in inverted commas? questions questions questions!!!

forgot to add this.....
people need food, it is unarguably the most fundamental part of our existance that have we control over. the world is shaped by our diets. this is an unquestionable truth. what you buy, and essentially what you eat, this being the most basic of human functions, no matter how insignificant you think you are , has an effect on the world and you can change that if you want. its up to you

[jasonireland]

bumpedy bump..... i'm waiting.....

[Reverend_HellH0und]

jasonireland wrote: did you want to add that to my list? . is that the only response you have , what about commenting on the undeniable evidence on the case for veganism above as beneficial for the planet, people and animals? do you agree or disagree with the points being made? the lack of response to so many different points makes me wonder............
its true vegans rely on modern science to supplement their diet. does that harm anyone? is it a reason not be vegan ? how many people dont take any supplements at all, regardless of their diet? and why was the word healthy in inverted commas? questions questions questions!!!

forgot to add this.....
people need food, it is unarguably the most fundamental part of our existance that have we control over. the world is shaped by our diets. this is an unquestionable truth. what you buy, and essentially what you eat, this being the most basic of human functions, no matter how insignificant you think you are , has an effect on the world and you can change that if you want. its up to you




What debate style. source a most biased site then belittle your opponent. How is that working out for you.


FACT: It is through the hard work of the natural order of the Omnivores that you are allowed to selfishly live your vegan lifestyle.

[perdidochas]

buddha wrote: perdidochas wrote:
The figures are based on existing hunter-gatherer tribes. Also, I had a professor who lived a year with the Inuit. It was his claim as well.

The main advantage of being agrarian is security (food storage) and not having to move every couple of weeks.

So you can't give me a study to look up, or a book.

www.primitive.org/nothing.htm

Link below is an essay that explains how early anthropologists started promulgating the myth that hunter/gatherers were inferior. Includes references. One that mentions hunter'gatherer society averaging two hours of work per day is: Woodburn, James. 1968. "An introduction to Hadza Ecology", in Lee and I. DeVore (eds.), Man the Hunter. Chicago: Aldine.

www.eco-action.org/dt/affluent.html


The link below is to a work about the !Kung, modern hunter-gatherers in the Kalahari desert--they average 12-21 hrs of work per week.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521295610/002-1981100-1572860?v=glance&n=283155

[perdidochas]

jasonireland wrote: did you want to add that to my list? . is that the only response you have , what about commenting on the undeniable evidence on the case for veganism above as beneficial for the planet, people and animals? do you agree or disagree with the points being made? the lack of response to so many different points makes me wonder............
its true vegans rely on modern science to supplement their diet. does that harm anyone? is it a reason not be vegan ? how many people dont take any supplements at all, regardless of their diet? and why was the word healthy in inverted commas? questions questions questions!!!

forgot to add this.....
people need food, it is unarguably the most fundamental part of our existance that have we control over. the world is shaped by our diets. this is an unquestionable truth. what you buy, and essentially what you eat, this being the most basic of human functions, no matter how insignificant you think you are , has an effect on the world and you can change that if you want. its up to you

In Great Britain, early in the 20th century, vegetarians that just moved from India, tended to have protein deficiency problems. Their diet was just the same. The primary difference was Western hygiene. It turns out vegetables in GB had less bugs than vegetables in India, and the difference was enough to cause protein deficiency symptoms.

[Gdawg007]

Reverend_HellH0und wrote:


Well I guess a needs assesment is in order. Fact remains we are wired omnivores that love our meat.

We crave meat for its high protein value, but that doesn't mean that in nature, man would get as much as man craves.


Quote:



Then who put all those damn eskimos up there? :lol:

The Eskimos were not the the first area where man lived on this earth. Only after developing technology, however primative it was, were we able to survive in the less desirable regions of the earth. Also, the places were Eskimos live are NOT covered in snow year round, and they do not eat an exclusive meat diet either.


Quote:




Never once did I claim we were carnivores. We are omnivores in which meat is an important part of our balanced existence with mother nature.

No you didn't, but the hypothetical of this thread did ask that, so I was trying to address that topic as well. We are omnivores, we probably eat more meat than our bodies were designed for though.

Quote:


We are omnivores yes. We also have big brains that allow us to harvest meat even though we are slower and less agile than many prey, :wink:

Yes, our brain is our main survival adaptation. But it still doesn't make us great natural preditors. And not to diminish our brains, but it was also our socialization that helped us hunt. Man rarely hunted alone simply because one man could not kill a lot of the game that was around. That same brain also lets us remember in vivid detail where we foraged for food and what kind it was, what exactly it was, and how to communicate it very effectively to the rest of our group so they can go find it as well. So our brain did more than help us invent ways to hunt, it also helped us invent ways to forage, eventually farm, and there's the whole civilization thing.

[buddha]

perdidochas wrote: buddha wrote: perdidochas wrote:
The figures are based on existing hunter-gatherer tribes. Also, I had a professor who lived a year with the Inuit. It was his claim as well.

The main advantage of being agrarian is security (food storage) and not having to move every couple of weeks.

So you can't give me a study to look up, or a book.

www.primitive.org/nothing.htm

Link below is an essay that explains how early anthropologists started promulgating the myth that hunter/gatherers were inferior. Includes references. One that mentions hunter'gatherer society averaging two hours of work per day is: Woodburn, James. 1968. "An introduction to Hadza Ecology", in Lee and I. DeVore (eds.), Man the Hunter. Chicago: Aldine.

www.eco-action.org/dt/affluent.html


The link below is to a work about the !Kung, modern hunter-gatherers in the Kalahari desert--they average 12-21 hrs of work per week.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521295610/002-1981100-1572860?v=glance&n=283155

Thanks.

[jasonireland]

Reverend_HellH0und wrote: jasonireland wrote: did you want to add that to my list? . is that the only response you have , what about commenting on the undeniable evidence on the case for veganism above as beneficial for the planet, people and animals? do you agree or disagree with the points being made? the lack of response to so many different points makes me wonder............
its true vegans rely on modern science to supplement their diet. does that harm anyone? is it a reason not be vegan ? how many people dont take any supplements at all, regardless of their diet? and why was the word healthy in inverted commas? questions questions questions!!!

forgot to add this.....
people need food, it is unarguably the most fundamental part of our existance that have we control over. the world is shaped by our diets. this is an unquestionable truth. what you buy, and essentially what you eat, this being the most basic of human functions, no matter how insignificant you think you are , has an effect on the world and you can change that if you want. its up to you




What debate style. source a most biased site then belittle your opponent. How is that working out for you.


FACT: It is through the hard work of the natural order of the Omnivores that you are allowed to selfishly live your vegan lifestyle.

the site may be biased, but all of the FACTS are undeniable, they are coming all angles, and many of them from non-vegan/vegetarian organisations. they come from independant scientific studies, the US Dept of Agriculture, the UN water assessment programme, the World Health Organisation, various university studies, and many more.

I am making a case for it to be more sustainable to be a vegan plus many, many other strong points too. Alot of them are simply things you probably cannot accept.
How can you continually accuse me of being selfish when i obviously make life difficault for myself by choosing a vegan diet? Can you not accept that people actually live this way for the benefit of others?
And please explain exactly how QUOTE "through the hard work of the natural order of the Omnivores that you are allowed to selfishly live your vegan lifestyle" ENDQUOTE.explain?
I am living outside the natural order of omnivores. It is anything but selfish. I buy my food, people make money, just like any other food source.
And, it seems like my "debate style" is winning, as neither you nor anyone else has even attempted to comment on the points i have made above. Now, will you kindly answer me, why do you think that is?

also, far from being self righteous, when i was neither vegan nor vegetarian i used to debate with people about the issues. i was on the pro-vegetarian side, so this debate, on my side anyway, is nothing to do with pride or defence of a lifestyle choice. i am simply addressing the issues some of them in points 1 to 16 above, as most of them are facts and NOT biased info.

now mr. reverend could you please answer my question and explain how exactly how i am being selfish?

[jasonireland]

news just in.......bump

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Moved to Animal Rights/The Environment/Scientific forum.

[jasonireland]

thank you!!

[Reverend_HellH0und]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Moved to Animal Rights/The Environment/Scientific forum.



Oh the death blow! :lol:

[TheGirlNextDoor]

jasonireland wrote: thank you!!


Just one other thing - please don't 'bump' topics, lest you would like to see them locked.

Quote: Bumping: Bumping a topic may result in that topic being locked.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

[jasonireland]

reverend , are you hiding the frustrating of losing a debate?

[Reverend_HellH0und]

jasonireland wrote:

the site may be biased, but all of the FACTS are undeniable, they are coming all angles, and many of them from non-vegan/vegetarian organisations. they come from independant scientific studies, the US Dept of Agriculture, the UN water assessment programme, the World Health Organisation, various university studies, and many more.


:lol:


Quote:
I am making a case for it to be more sustainable to be a vegan plus many, many other strong points too. Alot of them are simply things you probably cannot accept.


Who is not accepting. You are not accepting the natural order of life. You view your place in this world as some supierior being who does not have to partake in the cycle of life all so you can say you feel good about yourself.

Veganism is all about "look at me" and misguided understanding of the universe.

Quote:
How can you continually accuse me of being selfish when i obviously make life difficault for myself by choosing a vegan diet? Can you not accept that people actually live this way for the benefit of others?
And please explain exactly how QUOTE "through the hard work of the natural order of the Omnivores that you are allowed to selfishly live your vegan lifestyle" ENDQUOTE.explain?


You could not survive as a vegan if it was not for this society of omnivores creating a comfort society that allows you to make that silly choice. And look what you wrote "How can you continually accuse me of being selfish when i obviously make life difficault for myself by choosing a vegan diet?" That sentence reeks of me me selfishness. Lets say 50% of the world population selfishly decided to become vegans. What do you think would happen to livetstock and game populations? You are denying the very essence of life by selfishly choosing NOT to follow the circle of life. Quite a simple concept...

Quote: I am living outside the natural order of omnivores. It is anything but selfish. I buy my food, people make money, just like any other food source.

No you are not. You are choosing to live a fringe unnatural life based on the comforts of this omnivore society....

Quote:
And, it seems like my "debate style" is winning, as neither you nor anyone else has even attempted to comment on the points i have made above. Now, will you kindly answer me, why do you think that is?


Lol... Telling yourself that you are winning is not the best debate style...

What specific points would those be? :lol:


Quote: also, far from being self righteous, when i was neither vegan nor vegetarian i used to debate with people about the issues. i was on the pro-vegetarian side, so this debate, on my side anyway, is nothing to do with pride or defence of a lifestyle choice. i am simply addressing the issues some of them in points 1 to 16 above, as most of them are facts and NOT biased info.



1. Is an attempt to dismiss known facts
2. Only living off the fruits of an omnivore society is this true.
3. opinion
4. I am not a communist and there is plenty of land. This is a pointless statment.
5. Not true. While some do (veal etc) most do not. Most of my meat comes from what I kill though I willing partake in the offerings of my species.
6. What a crock. Old used meat is tough and killing your hens and milkin cows aint good business.... :lol:
7. Sounds like a law enforcment issue not a meat is good one.
8. Starving children in impovrished countries is because of a prime rib eye I eat. That is an absurd notion.... :lol:
9. umm thats not a fact but an emotional argument.... We are wired to love meat so we don't often need reminding...
10. Not fact... a poor attempt at a "humorous" anecdote.
11. lol.... Care to back this nonsense up?
12. lol.... Eating lean meats, and fish have more benefits in lowering cholesterol and reducing heart disease than a silly vegatable diet.
13. lol weak attempt to tie it to the war in iraq? :lol:
14. good.
15. There is not a land shortage so whats the point?
16. I stopped at the "UN".....


Addressed, answered, and properlly dismissed.


Quote:
now mr. reverend could you please answer my question and explain how exactly how i am being selfish?


Read this post.

[jasonireland]

jeez looks like you gave that alot of thought. a bit rushed i think.