Political Crossfire Forums

[BandNerd04]

Hope no one's posted it yet... I saw the report on the evening news during Spring Break.

From the Dallas Morning News:

Quote:
Complaint challenges moment of silence in schools


C-FB ISD: Perry aide says state law doesn't force students to pray
09:02 PM CST on Monday, March 13, 2006


By KATHERINE LEAL UNMUTH / The Dallas Morning News
An atheist couple whose children attend a Carrollton-Farmers Branch elementary school have filed a complaint in federal district court arguing that the state's mandated moment of silence in public schools is unconstitutional.

David and Shannon Croft named the school district and Gov. Rick Perry in their complaint, filed Friday. In it, they say one of their children was told by a teacher to be quiet because the minute is a "time for prayer."

"I do not believe there is any secular reason for a moment of silence," said Mr. Croft, 37, a computer programmer. "This is just a ruse to get prayer in school without calling it prayer in school. Is there any study showing a moment of silence helps education?"

School district spokeswoman Angela Shelley said she could not comment about the complaint because the district had not received a copy.

Most administrators were out of town because of spring break and could not be reached.

Since 2003, Mr. Croft has documented his battle against perceived violations of the separation of church and state at Rosemeade Elementary, where his three children attend.

His past complaints, he said, include objecting to religious-themed songs such as "Silent Night" and "God Bless the U.S.A.," Good News Bible Club meetings at the school and a poster reading "In God We Trust."

Kathy Walt, spokeswoman for the governor, said state law clearly gives children the freedom to do what they wish with the moment of silence.

The law, passed in 2003, allows children to "reflect, pray, meditate or engage in any other silent activities" for one minute after the American and Texas pledges at the beginning of each school day.

"If the student wants to review mentally to get ready for a test or pray silently, they can," she said. "The law does not set it up specifically as a moment for prayer. The student can use that moment to collect their thoughts in whatever manner they choose."

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that a moment of silence in Alabama public schools was unconstitutional, saying it showed the government was promoting prayer. But the court declined to hear a challenge backed by the American Civil Liberties Union to Virginia's moment of silence in 2001.

Dean Cook, Mr. Croft's Plano-based attorney, said the Alabama case set a precedent. He said the moment violates the establishment clause and church-state separation.

"This is an issue of trying to impose religion," he said. "There's nothing stopping students from silently praying during the day, so there's no need for this accommodation."

State Rep. Dan Branch, R-Dallas, who co-sponsored the 2003 law, said legislators were aware of challenges to similar laws and were careful with the wording to establish it as a neutral time. He said teachers have told him the law helps calm children down.

Letting children pray in school makes them feel the school is not hostile toward their religion, he said.

"There were some Republicans who wanted a verbal public prayer, and they were opposed to it [the legislation] because they thought it didn't go far enough," Mr. Branch said. "I just wanted to create an opportunity for families who want their children to be able to pray at the beginning of the school day toward a higher being to be able to do so."

Ms. Walt and Mr. Branch said they believe this is the first challenge to the law in Texas.

Mr. Croft ran unsuccessfully for the U.S. House in 2002 and for the state Legislature in 2004. As a Libertarian he advocated that the only legitimate functions of government are police, the courts and the military. He now is involved in the North Texas Objectivist Society and Humanist Fellowship.

His wife is a member of the school's PTA and volunteers at the school.
Mr. Croft called Michael Newdow of California a hero for challenging the constitutionality of the Pledge of Allegiance because of the phrase "one nation, under God."

Mr. Croft said his children sometimes feel uncomfortable because of their refusal to say the pledge or sing certain songs he believes promote religion.

"I don't want my children exposed to people telling them the supernatural is real," Mr. Croft said. "I completely reject Judeo-Christian monotheism."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/031406dnmetprayer.214283e6.html

Of course, the guy had the GUTS to file the complaint on Spring Break. :roll:

Can someone tell me how having a moment of silence, which is OFTEN used, for instance, to remember the victims of certain tragedies, is the ESTABLISMENT of ANY religion? You're forced to be silent and respectful of others' beliefs for one minute of the day; the rest of the day, you can call Christaians and Muslims and Jews and Bhuddists and whoever else all the names you want to for believing in a diety. You can interrupt their prayers and throw spit-wads at them. But for ONE MOMENT, these students are safe from that.

For this man's arguments, why is prayer allowed in this COUNTRY at all? After all, if his children SEE someone praying, they're being FORCED to pray, too! I mean, the mere fact that there is no law restricting prayer in this country means that the US is, in fact, ESTABILISHING a religion!! Don't you see it? The ability to pray unhindered in this country!!!

I rarely ever prayed during the moment of silence; I did that before going to school. I usually took the time to enjoy the quiet and think clearly before the rowdiness started up again or think about certain victims/ our troops in the war. It was nice to have a silent part of the day. At the times of rememberence, it was nice that at certain times, we were ALL thinking about the same thing. For one minute, united, we would remember 9/11 or the victims of drunk driving accidents or the student who we all knew that was killed in a car crash. Some people prayed at this time, and others merely thought about them. Of course, others thought about what they were going to do to themselves with the Playboy magazine they had at home, but the majority of the students were all united at these times.

Athiests expect us to respect them with this kind of attitude? Tch. If I didn't know some really nice ones, I assure you that I would NOT respect them in the least.

[snow]

Pathetic

[BastionOfSanity]

Ya, it's not really a prayer, doesn't have to be. A remembrance of whatever bad thing occured to have that moment. I hate these kind of nosey parents that scream at teachers and such when some little "Bad" thing happens. Glad mine aren't like that.

[wormwood]

Quote: Of course, the guy had the GUTS to file the complaint on Spring Break. He has filed many complaints at various times, so I don't think his "bravery" about the subject is really in question.


Quote: Can someone tell me how having a moment of silence, which is OFTEN used, for instance, to remember the victims of certain tragedies, is the ESTABLISMENT of ANY religion? Ok, given that there are no tragedies to reflect upon, what is the purpose of this minute? It is designed so people can pray... you said it yourself.. Quote: You can interrupt their prayers and throw spit-wads at them. But for ONE MOMENT, these students are safe from that. . If you want to pray for other people, well hey, that's fantastic... but you can not force other people to feel that way, or even stop everything to give you that chance. If praying is something that you're into, you can do that at home before you go to school, but what you can't do is ask children to stand there motionless and speechless for some abstract or unknown reason. Think about it this way; the school year is approx. 250+ days a year. At one minute per day for 12 years that is approx 3000 minutes or 50 hours of their life that they will never get back...50 hours spent in silent observation of someone else's religion. You can say that the people are not forced to reflect on religion, and that they are free to think about what they wish, but the same is true for just sitting at their desks without the silent moment. When you are forced to stop your normal life and be solemn that is observation of religion. The point of school is to learn, not to reflect...you can reflect at home.

Quote: For this man's arguments, why is prayer allowed in this COUNTRY at all? After all, if his children SEE someone praying, they're being FORCED to pray, too! This would be true if when the children saw someone praying, they were forced to stop and be silent for a whole minute each time.

Quote: Athiests expect us to respect them with this kind of attitude? Tch. If I didn't know some really nice ones, I assure you that I would NOT respect them in the least. This is the line of thinking that causes all sorts of religious problems. Just as you do not want to be judged by the loudest (often dumbest) minority of Christianity (or whatever religion), I am sure the same is true for atheists. Also, I am not an atheist, and I have "this kind of attitude", so I don't really think it has as much to do with atheism or anti-christianism as you might believe. Morality, ethics, character or whatever you want to call it, should be taught at home and should not be a burden for the schools which already have enough trouble with the staples of education such as reading and math. If you want yourself or your children to have a religious schooling, there are special schools to suit you.

[Enoch]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Athiests expect us to respect them with this kind of attitude? Tch. If I didn't know some really nice ones, I assure you that I would NOT respect them in the least. This is the line of thinking that causes all sorts of religious problems. Just as you do not want to be judged by the loudest (often dumbest) minority of Christianity (or whatever religion), I am sure the same is true for atheists. Also, I am not an atheist, and I have "this kind of attitude", so I don't really think it has as much to do with atheism or anti-christianism as you might believe. Morality, ethics, character or whatever you want to call it, should be taught at home and should not be a burden for the schools which already have enough trouble with the staples of education such as reading and math. If you want yourself or your children to have a religious schooling, there are special schools to suit you.

Very well said wormwood.

I have often said that people who want religion in school should send their kids to religious schools.

[Shady]

Unless they are forcing the kids to pray during the moment of silence rather then just sit there and be respectful then it's not unconstitutional in the slightest. You could make a better case for the Pledge of Allegiance and the "under God" line.

[connermt]

People have too much time on their hands evidentually. So what if there is a moment of silence(?) - everyone can use it to quietly do whatever they want, not just pray. Fantasize about the teacher, pick your nose, pray, whatever. No one is forcing anyone to pray so what's the big deal?

[feederband]

I have know problem with moment of silence...Its a time to reflect....

[BandNerd04]

wormwood wrote: He has filed many complaints at various times, so I don't think his "bravery" about the subject is really in question.

:roll: If you say so. Of course, the man also believes Michael Newdow a hero, so he MUST be VERY brave.

Quote: Ok, given that there are no tragedies to reflect upon, what is the purpose of this minute? It is designed so people can pray... you said it yourself..

Actually, praying is just ONE of the things students can do. If you'd actually read the article, you would have seen what the law actually says:

The law, passed in 2003, allows children to "reflect, pray, meditate or engage in any other silent activities" for one minute after the American and Texas pledges at the beginning of each school day.

So my question still stands: what Religion is being ESTABLISHED through the moment of silence. I'd just like to see... oh... maybe a doctrine of some kind that states that the moment of silence is essential to the Faith. Or maybe the part in the law where it says, "Every student must bow their heads, close their eyes, and pray to God. And at the end of the 60 seconds, the students must say in unison, 'Amen.'"

Quote: If you want to pray for other people, well hey, that's fantastic... but you can not force other people to feel that way, or even stop everything to give you that chance. If praying is something that you're into, you can do that at home before you go to school, but what you can't do is ask children to stand there motionless and speechless for some abstract or unknown reason. Think about it this way; the school year is approx. 250+ days a year. At one minute per day for 12 years that is approx 3000 minutes or 50 hours of their life that they will never get back...50 hours spent in silent observation of someone else's religion. You can say that the people are not forced to reflect on religion, and that they are free to think about what they wish, but the same is true for just sitting at their desks without the silent moment. When you are forced to stop your normal life and be solemn that is observation of religion. The point of school is to learn, not to reflect...you can reflect at home.

We can't ask students to be silent during the day?

...

:rotf:

:lol: I suppose you have a problem with students taking tests in silence, then? I mean, by what right do they have to tell students who are FINISHED with their tests to remain quiet for the other students? After all, how can we ask students to remain "silent and motionless for some abstract unknown reason?" I mean... They're being forced to observe other students taking tests!! :lol: IT'S UNCONCONSTITUTIONAL!! We just CAN'T make students be quiet!! It violates their RIGHTS!!!

Why don't you tell me which religion they are participating in? Tell me how they're participating in it. Tell me which religion has been ESTABLISHED by this law.

By the same token as your arguments, the US has ESTABLISHED a religion by not BANNING prayer in the nation! :lol:

Quote: This would be true if when the children saw someone praying, they were forced to stop and be silent for a whole minute each time.

And every student prays during the moment of silence? Really. Wow... Because I really don't remember praying that often... Only when something bad/nervewracking had happened or was going to happen that day...

Mmm... The nerve... Respect. It's so horrible. - Unless, of course, it's the atheists receiving it. They're so sensitive... Their "right" to not be offended, an imaginary right, trumps the true rights of all others. :roll:

You do realize that if atheists busted into the middle of some outdoor Christian activity on the street, even if it WAS prayer, that they could be taken away by the police and even charged with public disturbence or harrassment? But even then, that is a SPECIFIED religious activity. It is SPECIFICALLY religious.

Again, what religion has been ESTABLISHED by this law?

Quote: This is the line of thinking that causes all sorts of religious problems. Just as you do not want to be judged by the loudest (often dumbest) minority of Christianity (or whatever religion), I am sure the same is true for atheists. Also, I am not an atheist, and I have "this kind of attitude", so I don't really think it has as much to do with atheism or anti-christianism as you might believe. Morality, ethics, character or whatever you want to call it, should be taught at home and should not be a burden for the schools which already have enough trouble with the staples of education such as reading and math. If you want yourself or your children to have a religious schooling, there are special schools to suit you.

Oh, really? No morality should be taught in schools? No ethics? Really?

:lol: I dare you to take that little proposition before a schoolboard. Not excluding a little thing called MULTICULTURALISM that has infested schools across the nation, morality and ethics ARE taught in schools. Schools reflect society's morality. Schools reflect society's ethics. That's just the way it is, and if you don't like it, well... cry me a river.

[BandNerd04]

UrielsFyre wrote: Very well said wormwood.

I have often said that people who want religion in school should send their kids to religious schools.

Perhaps you can tell me, then.

Show me in the law where it FORCES students to pray. And then show me which religion has been ESABLISHED by the law.

Until you can do that, you are merely upholding an imaginary right: the right to not be offended.

"You have the right to remain silent." <-- Is that unconstitutional as well?? :rofl:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The moment of silence is a joke. Most kids won't shut up talking about their favorite TV shows or how many points Yao Ming dropped the night before. I'd rather have that minute spent for instruction. Kids can pray any time they please. Setting aside time for it is moronic.

[snow]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: The moment of silence is a joke. Most kids won't shut up talking about their favorite TV shows or how many points Yao Ming dropped the night before. I'd rather have that minute spent for instruction. Kids can pray any time they please. Setting aside time for it is moronic.

In your experience. . . in my experience, people have always been respectful during a moment of silence. Throughout high school, I could often hear a pin drop during these times, and there was no prayer required.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

snow wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: The moment of silence is a joke. Most kids won't shut up talking about their favorite TV shows or how many points Yao Ming dropped the night before. I'd rather have that minute spent for instruction. Kids can pray any time they please. Setting aside time for it is moronic.

In your experience. . . in my experience, people have always been respectful during a moment of silence. Throughout high school, I could often hear a pin drop during these times, and there was no prayer required.

So people can't pray when it's loud? Or on the bus? Or at home, before they go to school? This is like schools having to teach kids about their pee-pees because their parents are too incompetent to do it themselves. Hmm. Anyway, regardless of how my experience compares to others, it's still a stupid idea. It's the school board politicians compromising with religious advocates by throwing them a bone because they can't have teacher-led ablutions every morning or confessions in the nurse's office.

[connermt]

snow wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: The moment of silence is a joke. Most kids won't shut up talking about their favorite TV shows or how many points Yao Ming dropped the night before. I'd rather have that minute spent for instruction. Kids can pray any time they please. Setting aside time for it is moronic.

In your experience. . . in my experience, people have always been respectful during a moment of silence. Throughout high school, I could often hear a pin drop during these times, and there was no prayer required.

Same here. Most times the kids aren't praying during this time anyway. And yes, kids can pray on the us, walking to school, at lunch - whenever they want. A moment of silence is nothing more than that - a moment of silence

[Enoch]

BandNerd04 wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Very well said wormwood.

I have often said that people who want religion in school should send their kids to religious schools.

Perhaps you can tell me, then.

Show me in the law where it FORCES students to pray. And then show me which religion has been ESABLISHED by the law.

Until you can do that, you are merely upholding an imaginary right: the right to not be offended.

"You have the right to remain silent." <-- Is that unconstitutional as well?? :rofl:

I never said that the moment of silence was religious. I never said that religion is established by law. I never said that students are being forced to pray. So, before you get up on your high horse, please pay attention to the posts I made.

I was, in order to refresh your memory, agreeing with what wormwood said about religion (in general) in schools. My view of the moment of silence is that it is a pointless waste of time in schools. If schools really want to teach respect for those who lost thier lives in a tragedy, or whatever the case is, try teaching about the event not making some arbitrary decision that silence somehow equals respect. Sometimes silence is just silence.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

UrielsFyre wrote: If schools really want to teach respect for those who lost thier lives in a tragedy, or whatever the case is, try teaching about the event not making some arbitrary decision that silence somehow equals respect. Sometimes silence is just silence.

Nice.

[connermt]

I wonder why some people are so upset about things in school that could possibly relate to God. It is the school's responsibility to teach the kids as much as possible, not babysit them. It is the PARENT'S responsibility to teach their kids what the family believes & teach them values & how to think for themselves enough to know "Hey thins sounds interesting, maybe I should look into it.." or "I don't believe in that because 'XYZ'".
It seems to me that parents use the school as a scape goat for their lack of parenting abilities & consequently blame the school for everything possible so no fingers are pointed at them (the parents).
In the REAL WORLD, the kids, once adults, will have to interact with people of different beliefs, different faiths, different lifestyles, different race & from different countries & cultures. Why not let them experience other people's POV while they are young?
If a public school is 'teaching' one way & not the other way for (whatever), that is wrong because both or all sides aren't represented. But is the school is allowing the kids to experience as many views as possible & NOT TEACHING IT AS FACT, why is that wrong?

[Darth Tiberius]

It was lucky that in my school I and another small group was able to convince the principal to eliminate prayers from assemblies and any pledges. No-one enjoyed them. Anyone who wants to pray then go do it in your own time.

[snow]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
So people can't pray when it's loud? Or on the bus? Or at home, before they go to school? This is like schools having to teach kids about their pee-pees because their parents are too incompetent to do it themselves. Hmm. Anyway, regardless of how my experience compares to others, it's still a stupid idea. It's the school board politicians compromising with religious advocates by throwing them a bone because they can't have teacher-led ablutions every morning or confessions in the nurse's office.

What in the hell are you talking about? A moment of silence has just about nothing to do with politicians and religious advocates. It's a time to reflect and respect. Never once did I hear the word "prayer" associated with a moment of silence. Do you have any proof regarding these conspiratorial relationships?

[Todd D.]

snow wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
So people can't pray when it's loud? Or on the bus? Or at home, before they go to school? This is like schools having to teach kids about their pee-pees because their parents are too incompetent to do it themselves. Hmm. Anyway, regardless of how my experience compares to others, it's still a stupid idea. It's the school board politicians compromising with religious advocates by throwing them a bone because they can't have teacher-led ablutions every morning or confessions in the nurse's office.

What in the hell are you talking about? A moment of silence has just about nothing to do with politicians and religious advocates. It's a time to reflect and respect. Never once did I hear the word "prayer" associated with a moment of silence. Do you have any proof regarding these conspiratorial relationships?
While I agree that there's nothing inherantly wrong with a moment of silence, it's a bit naive to say that it's not at least casually associated with a prayer.

Anyway, it's a moment of silence. Even if you don't want to pray, why can't you respect the person that does? It's 10 seconds in the middle of homeroom. BFD.