Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

41 year old Abdul Rahman is facing the death penalty after his family accused him of becoming a Christian. He is being prosecuted in a court in Kabul, Afghanistan. He said he became a Christian 16 years ago after working with Christian aid workers. The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam but he refused. Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada will rule on the case within two months. "We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said."It is an attack on Islam." This is Sharia Law. Get ready for it, it's coming to a town near you, soon.

Folks, pray for this Christian brother. He is in the belly of the beast.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

In your opinion Cap'n..

What would you say to someone who would use this example to discredit what the New Testament says about obeying the law of the land?

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:31 am Post subject:

A good showing of why religious intolerance is unacceptable in any form.

Ssushi · Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 7356

cap'n queasy wrote: 41 year old Abdul Rahman is facing the death penalty after his family accused him of becoming a Christian. He is being prosecuted in a court in Kabul, Afghanistan. He said he became a Christian 16 years ago after working with Christian aid workers. The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam but he refused. Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada will rule on the case within two months. "We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said."It is an attack on Islam." This is Sharia Law. Get ready for it, it's coming to a town near you, soon.

Folks, pray for this Christian brother. He is in the belly of the beast.

Please explain what "He is in the belly of the beast" is exactly...

The Judge made it very clear that this ruling is not anti-christian, yet you have changed it to being so and also used it to support your anti-muslim stance...

The death penalty is in effect in many countries around the world and for different crimes.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:47 am Post subject:

Quote: The Judge made it very clear that this ruling is not anti-christian
He said "We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law". Those two statements are contradictory. If it is illegal to be something other than a certain faith, that means that by definition the ruling is anti-all other faiths. Because this man is supposedly going to be put to death simply because he converted to Christianity, that necessarily makes the ruling anti-Christian.

I'm not entirely sure how anyone can call this ruling just.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

John wrote: In your opinion Cap'n..

What would you say to someone who would use this example to discredit what the New Testament says about obeying the law of the land?

They are only trying to discredit it for their own peace of mind, so why bother saying anything? If one's name is written in the Book, they will know what it means.

The testament to the New Covenant says this would happen and to keep Faith during the testing. Going to court, being honest about your faith in the Lord and not resisting the sentence is the correct course of action to obey YHWH IMHO. Obviously in this case it is man's laws that are wrong in the eyes of the Lord. This is the only instance in which a follower of Y'shua should violate the law. One cannot renounce Y'shua. No matter what the circumstance.

And even then you should go in peace, so as not to disturb the tranquility and quiet life of others, so that they may live in all godliness and dignity.(1 Timothy 2)

It's going to be a hard time, and this is hard to accept, but fighting back is not the right answer. In fact, I would say that when the US declares the death penalty for worshiping YHWH the thing to do would be to turn yourself into the authorities and accept their sentence gladly and with praise. Do not resist authority for God put it here for a purpose. Be assured His purposes will be met in all things. Go in peace and love from this rotten world.

The long night will be over soon. Have strength in your faith and all will be well for you.

Personally I would refuse to defend myself. If that's what the world wants to do, let them.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Ssushi wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: 41 year old Abdul Rahman is facing the death penalty after his family accused him of becoming a Christian. He is being prosecuted in a court in Kabul, Afghanistan. He said he became a Christian 16 years ago after working with Christian aid workers. The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam but he refused. Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada will rule on the case within two months. "We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said."It is an attack on Islam." This is Sharia Law. Get ready for it, it's coming to a town near you, soon.

Folks, pray for this Christian brother. He is in the belly of the beast.

Please explain what "He is in the belly of the beast" is exactly...

The Judge made it very clear that this ruling is not anti-christian, yet you have changed it to being so and also used it to support your anti-muslim stance...

The death penalty is in effect in many countries around the world and for different crimes.

You should know more about it than I do. You apparently dwell there yourself. I guess you can't see the forest for the trees.

I think it is ultimately a pro-christian ruling.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: In fact, I would say that when the US declares the death penalty for worshiping YHWH the thing to do would be to turn yourself into the authorities and accept their sentence gladly and with praise. Do not resist authority for God put it here for a purpose. Be assured His purposes will be met in all things. Go in peace and love from this rotten world.

That's a hard pill to swallow for most folks...but I do believe that you're correct here. We have a hard time giving up control and allowing God to be in complete control...even if it seems like insanity from our limited understanding.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:08 am Post subject:

I disagree. While we have a responsibility to accept the laws of the nation that we are in (insofar as they do not violate God's laws, as was discussed), the idea that we should not "resist" is completely absurd, especially within a democratic republic where the people have a say in the direction of their country. If what you were saying was true, then the American Revolution should have never taken place. Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but a defeatist attitude of accepting any and all injustices that come your way does not strike me as Jesus's intention.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Quote: Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but a defeatist attitude of accepting any and all injustices that come your way does not strike me as Jesus's intention.

Oh Todd,

Can't you see the Gospel message? Jesus Christ is our role model. The victory is in the "defeat". Was Jesus defeated on the cross? Heavens no...it WAS the victory.

Satan can't "win" by killing me....he can only make me stronger and cause more glory to God. The Faith and trust exhibited in my death, in laying down my life in complete trust in the Lord...is a sweet fragrance to my Lord.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

There is a better place than this. Sending me there is doing me a favor. IMHO :wink:

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:26 am Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: Rendering unto Caesar is one thing, but a defeatist attitude of accepting any and all injustices that come your way does not strike me as Jesus's intention.

Oh Todd,

Can't you see the Gospel message? Jesus Christ is our role model. The victory is in the "defeat". Was Jesus defeated on the cross? Heavens no...it WAS the victory.

Satan can't "win" by killing me....he can only make me stronger and cause more glory to God. The Faith and trust exhibited in my death, in laying down my life in complete trust in the Lord...is a sweet fragrance to my Lord.
That's not what I am saying though. It sounds like you are suggesting that participation against injustice is the only acceptable reaction, wheras I think that ESPECIALLY in a system of government where we have control over the direction, we need to at least try to ensure that needless injustice does not occur. The fact that Jesus said that governments are in place for a reason does not necessarily negate the need to strive for Women's equality, for racial tolerance, for an end to various oppressions, does it?

Jesus's message was of a spiritual nature, not a political one. So much trouble has come of trying to fuse the two I feel, wheras keeping them seperate (though not contradictory) I feel is the overall message.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: The fact that Jesus said that governments are in place for a reason does not necessarily negate the need to strive for Women's equality, for racial tolerance, for an end to various oppressions, does it?

Of course not, the Christian influence in this nation has been good for both us and the world.

We are most likely going to see a day where this influence is negated violently. You can fight it in court if you like, but I would welcome this step toward final justice coming to the world. By that time there will be nothing but kangeroo courts like those in Afghanistan, anyway. We are well on the way already.

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: In your opinion Cap'n..

What would you say to someone who would use this example to discredit what the New Testament says about obeying the law of the land?

They are only trying to discredit it for their own peace of mind, so why bother saying anything? If one's name is written in the Book, they will know what it means.

The testament to the New Covenant says this would happen and to keep Faith during the testing. Going to court, being honest about your faith in the Lord and not resisting the sentence is the correct course of action to obey YHWH IMHO. Obviously in this case it is man's laws that are wrong in the eyes of the Lord. This is the only instance in which a follower of Y'shua should violate the law. One cannot renounce Y'shua. No matter what the circumstance.

And even then you should go in peace, so as not to disturb the tranquility and quiet life of others, so that they may live in all godliness and dignity.(1 Timothy 2)

It's going to be a hard time, and this is hard to accept, but fighting back is not the right answer. In fact, I would say that when the US declares the death penalty for worshiping YHWH the thing to do would be to turn yourself into the authorities and accept their sentence gladly and with praise. Do not resist authority for God put it here for a purpose. Be assured His purposes will be met in all things. Go in peace and love from this rotten world.

The long night will be over soon. Have strength in your faith and all will be well for you.

Personally I would refuse to defend myself. If that's what the world wants to do, let them.

Are you suggesting then that the other Christian Afgani's should turn themselves in, since their beliefs are against the law?

Jesus didn't turn himself in. He had a mission. We all have missions as well. "Greater things will ye do than these because I go unto the Father."

If I'm captured, sure. I won't deny my faith, but until then I'll "be shrewd as a serpent, but innocent as a dove."

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

I think this is along the lines of what Cap'n is saying:

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

sladeh · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 246

cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: In your opinion Cap'n..

What would you say to someone who would use this example to discredit what the New Testament says about obeying the law of the land?

They are only trying to discredit it for their own peace of mind, so why bother saying anything? If one's name is written in the Book, they will know what it means.

The testament to the New Covenant says this would happen and to keep Faith during the testing. Going to court, being honest about your faith in the Lord and not resisting the sentence is the correct course of action to obey YHWH IMHO. Obviously in this case it is man's laws that are wrong in the eyes of the Lord. This is the only instance in which a follower of Y'shua should violate the law. One cannot renounce Y'shua. No matter what the circumstance.

And even then you should go in peace, so as not to disturb the tranquility and quiet life of others, so that they may live in all godliness and dignity.(1 Timothy 2)

It's going to be a hard time, and this is hard to accept, but fighting back is not the right answer. In fact, I would say that when the US declares the death penalty for worshiping YHWH the thing to do would be to turn yourself into the authorities and accept their sentence gladly and with praise. Do not resist authority for God put it here for a purpose. Be assured His purposes will be met in all things. Go in peace and love from this rotten world.

The long night will be over soon. Have strength in your faith and all will be well for you.

Personally I would refuse to defend myself. If that's what the world wants to do, let them.

Would you and John be interested in my opinion, or are you satisfied with speaking for me and passing judgment on me for what you said on my behalf?

In this situation JESUS gave us the example of being silent before our accusers. This man may choose to honor Jesus by submitting to his own execution and not renounce the Lord (the second most honorable death possible). The difference between our examples is that in mine, other lives are on the line besides a Christian before Caesar choosing his own fate.

Bad form, cap'n. This shows poor taste that you would use this man's ongoing predicament to attempt to trap another Christian, or win a debate to satisfy your own ego. Again I see you have come in the wrong spirit, which is spirit of Paul the Pharisee, Torrequemada, Hank Hanegraaff, and all otherkeepers of the "true doctrine". Dangerous...leads to the gallows and the rack.

I'm not perfect either, but I simply take my lesson from Jesus. Unlike Paul's statements, my position has absolutely nothing to do with public tranquility.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

It's soooo cool that my (U.S.) tax dollars are being used to support the government in Afghanistan.. :tu: :roll:

I don't know why any American even bothers paying taxes anymore.. the Washington government is just soo damn corrupt..

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

I can't help but wonder, cap'n, if you would feel the same outrage if the man were being put to death for being Hindu, Jewish, or even Wiccan. Is the outrage because of the practice of persecuting those with different beliefs, or is it because it is a Christian being persecuted?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

sladeh wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: In your opinion Cap'n..

What would you say to someone who would use this example to discredit what the New Testament says about obeying the law of the land?

They are only trying to discredit it for their own peace of mind, so why bother saying anything? If one's name is written in the Book, they will know what it means.

The testament to the New Covenant says this would happen and to keep Faith during the testing. Going to court, being honest about your faith in the Lord and not resisting the sentence is the correct course of action to obey YHWH IMHO. Obviously in this case it is man's laws that are wrong in the eyes of the Lord. This is the only instance in which a follower of Y'shua should violate the law. One cannot renounce Y'shua. No matter what the circumstance.

And even then you should go in peace, so as not to disturb the tranquility and quiet life of others, so that they may live in all godliness and dignity.(1 Timothy 2)

It's going to be a hard time, and this is hard to accept, but fighting back is not the right answer. In fact, I would say that when the US declares the death penalty for worshiping YHWH the thing to do would be to turn yourself into the authorities and accept their sentence gladly and with praise. Do not resist authority for God put it here for a purpose. Be assured His purposes will be met in all things. Go in peace and love from this rotten world.

The long night will be over soon. Have strength in your faith and all will be well for you.

Personally I would refuse to defend myself. If that's what the world wants to do, let them.

Would you and John be interested in my opinion, or are you satisfied with speaking for me and passing judgment on me for what you said on my behalf?

In this situation JESUS gave us the example of being silent before our accusers. This man may choose to honor Jesus by submitting to his own execution and not renounce the Lord (the second most honorable death possible). The difference between our examples is that in mine, other lives are on the line besides a Christian before Caesar choosing his own fate.

Bad form, cap'n. This shows poor taste that you would use this man's ongoing predicament to attempt to trap another Christian, or win a debate to satisfy your own ego. Again I see you have come in the wrong spirit, which is spirit of Paul the Pharisee, Torrequemada, Hank Hanegraaff, and all otherkeepers of the "true doctrine". Dangerous...leads to the gallows and the rack.

I'm not perfect either, but I simply take my lesson from Jesus. Unlike Paul's statements, my position has absolutely nothing to do with public tranquility.

Nobody is doing anything to you. When I read Cap'ns post I couldn't help but think of the other thread and wondered what Cap'n thought about this particular situation.

sladeh · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 246

OK, I answered your question, how about you answer one of mine?

Chinese forced abortion? Turn your wife over to authorities as the law requires, or resist. #1 Risk your life to save your wife the shame of having her womb violated by totalitarian atheistic overlords, and save the life of your unborn child? #2 Obey Paul's doctrine and recognize the God-given authority of the State? You must choose. In this scenario, praying for a miracle is not an option. This is a real life situation. It happens every day to Christians in China.

Give me a straight answer please. Then reconcile your statements with the absolute authority of the State, the Divine Right of Kings, or whatever your position is from Paul's teaching. Please explain yourselves in your own words from your interpretation of scripture (I include Paul's letters here when I say scripture). Thank you.