Political Crossfire Forums

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

We are human capital to the not only governments but big business as well you are someones property whether you like it or not. realization is the key for securing our freedom as human beings.

think about it do you have a say in the political arena can you go into parlaiment and say we as a people do not want this and make a difference. I have tried here on several occasions and was turned a deaf ear and blind eye. If we were valued the world would be a much better place then the de-stabalizing world we live in now. You may cast the vote but the ones counting those votes make the decisions. we need to stand up and make these decisions for our selves to create a free global society not an oppressed one under elected dictators bought out by these huge multi-nationals and banks. Globalization is imminent but we should be the ones making the decisions through our representatives in government not them making decisions based on what the rich want. We follow social trends that decision makers create we buy what they want us to and entertain our selves with their entertainment. We have become bottom feeders who in the end will pay for our ignorance and stupidity by letting them rule our lives with money,power and false dreams. We are like the cattle they need us to sustain their power i propose we take it back and create a global society that values human life as opposed to controling and monoplizing it. human beings are more then capitol and can acheive anything if we work together and restrict the global elite's power as well as our own governments.

the machines tentacles have invaded every aspect of our lives and in turn we do what we are told follow laws they create. we let them poison us with unhealthy foods and water. We let take and take, and we can't let them do this anymore. everyone has the right as a human being to live prosperous rich lives and we should be allowed to do what we want as long as it hurts no one else. according to them we have to much freedom and they want to take it away. this is crunch time people it is time to raise your heads and say no more and seize the moment. Soon it will be impossible for anyone to be heard and as more and more world leaders values and ideals become corrupted with prospects of personal riches and asperations. A very dangerous time is upon us we can't let them win.

they count on you to turn a blind eye and do what your told. If we all just for one minute sat down and thought about it we would realize that there is something very wrong in the way we think people are getting less intellegent and docile in the civilized world and would rather watch TV and play x-box as opposed to trying to secure their own freedoms and rights as a human being.

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject:

Quote: they count on you to turn a blind eye and do what your told. If we all just for one minute sat down and thought about it we would realize that there is something very wrong in the way we think people are getting less intellegent and docile in the civilized world and would rather watch TV and play x-box as opposed to trying to secure their own freedoms and rights as a human being.

Why? Is there anatomically a difference between docile man and rebellious man? Why rebel against a settled aristocracy that got there because they subjugated others through the system, rather than as silly children cross their arms and 'rebel'.

Fight club is a movie. Rage against the machine an album. Both were sponsored by corporations. What does that tell you?

Mr U

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

"Is there anatomically a difference between docile man and rebellious man?"

Not anatomically but rather psychologically people are well getting stupid look at the media. I remember a time when News on TV was actually news. I remember when kids actually went to school and were encouraged to learn and when people knew that buffalo wings never came from buffalo (Jessica Simpson).

People are more interested in convenience and entertainment and what the latest celebrity fashions are. What do you see on the news most of the time you see missing white girls every week, micheal jackson and other high profile lawsuits and celebrity scandle. "It looks like some girl went missing in Aruba so let's focus on that for three weeks".

"The revolution will not be televised" this statement has more truth to it then you could possibly imagine.

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

Canadian_Patriot wrote: "Is there anatomically a difference between docile man and rebellious man?"

Not anatomically but rather psychologically people are well getting stupid look at the media. I remember a time when News on TV was actually news. I remember when kids actually went to school and were encouraged to learn and when people knew that buffalo wings never came from buffalo (Jessica Simpson).

People have been stupid, in general, since the beginning of time. It isn't new, the media have simply found a way to address a new kind of audience, stupid kids, who have the money of their parents, but not their parents' reluctance of spending.

Quote: People are more interested in convenience and entertainment and what the latest celebrity fashions are. What do you see on the news most of the time you see missing white girls every week, micheal jackson and other high profile lawsuits and celebrity scandle. "It looks like some girl went missing in Aruba so let's focus on that for three weeks".

Yes.. And?

Quote: "The revolution will not be televised" this statement has more truth to it then you could possibly imagine.

So because I'm not enthusiastic enough to jump on your 'revolution'-bandwagon, I'm incapable of imagining the 'truth' in your statements? You must feel really misunderstood :shock:.

Mr U

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Not misunderstood Because you understood the nature of my post and though your aren't accepting what i say and maybe even ridiculing me. I at least had to try and in the end isn't that what really counts?

It frustrates me to see everything go to crap every single day the world is worse off then what it was the day before.

MLBrandow · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 105 Location: Tallahassee, FL

Canadian_Patriot wrote: We are human capital to the not only governments but big business as well you are someones property whether you like it or not. realization is the key for securing our freedom as human beings.

think about it do you have a say in the political arena can you go into parlaiment and say we as a people do not want this and make a difference. I have tried here on several occasions and was turned a deaf ear and blind eye. If we were valued the world would be a much better place then the de-stabalizing world we live in now. You may cast the vote but the ones counting those votes make the decisions. we need to stand up and make these decisions for our selves to create a free global society not an oppressed one under elected dictators bought out by these huge multi-nationals and banks. Globalization is imminent but we should be the ones making the decisions through our representatives in government not them making decisions based on what the rich want. We follow social trends that decision makers create we buy what they want us to and entertain our selves with their entertainment. We have become bottom feeders who in the end will pay for our ignorance and stupidity by letting them rule our lives with money,power and false dreams. We are like the cattle they need us to sustain their power i propose we take it back and create a global society that values human life as opposed to controling and monoplizing it. human beings are more then capitol and can acheive anything if we work together and restrict the global elite's power as well as our own governments.

the machines tentacles have invaded every aspect of our lives and in turn we do what we are told follow laws they create. we let them poison us with unhealthy foods and water. We let take and take, and we can't let them do this anymore. everyone has the right as a human being to live prosperous rich lives and we should be allowed to do what we want as long as it hurts no one else. according to them we have to much freedom and they want to take it away. this is crunch time people it is time to raise your heads and say no more and seize the moment. Soon it will be impossible for anyone to be heard and as more and more world leaders values and ideals become corrupted with prospects of personal riches and asperations. A very dangerous time is upon us we can't let them win.

they count on you to turn a blind eye and do what your told. If we all just for one minute sat down and thought about it we would realize that there is something very wrong in the way we think people are getting less intellegent and docile in the civilized world and would rather watch TV and play x-box as opposed to trying to secure their own freedoms and rights as a human being.

As a man of more legal and realist nature, perhaps I am not long for this forum, but if you're going to craft an argument against "the man," you need to write in proper syntax and recognize basic fundamentals of rhetoric--like eliminating run-on sentences and proper punctuation and capitalization.

Until you do this, your ethos might be crippled enough to mitigate your entire argument without any real refutes necessary.

One could also point out that you lack any real examples of your analogy. You just make general and vague references to base your argument on.

It's great to see anyone wanting to reform the government and not always take "do it this way because that's how everybody does it" for an answer. At that, if you're going to seriously bout with anyone, you need to be able to articulate your points much more effectively.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5499 Location: Dreamland, NC

Canadian_Patriot wrote: Not misunderstood Because you understood the nature of my post and though your aren't accepting what i say and maybe even ridiculing me. I at least had to try and in the end isn't that what really counts?

It frustrates me to see everything go to crap every single day the world is worse off then what it was the day before.

No the world has not gotten worse. That is the kind of mentality that is making the world go to crap. The Idealogues of the worlds great civilizations are constantly pushing for perfection and dont even know where to begin to get us there.

Have you ever been to a non western country. It isn't nearly as romantic as the movies and media play it off to be. They live lives bitterly impoverished with nearly zero chance at upward mobility. But you live in one of the most prosperous nations in the world and are complaining about your standard of living. The arrogance.

In the western world you have tremendous oppurtunity. You live in a system where you can learn for basically free the wonders of the universe and gain upon knowledge of our predecessors. But you wish to squander that on a pseudo-idealistic crusade against the evil of the corporations.

Why dont you do something truly useful and start a corporation. Do something be someone not be a finger that points at others or points to the sky when things go wrong.

Now please tell me how the world is worse. We are living longer, happier more prosperous lives. We can learn great things and go to great places. We are free to marry who we wish eat what we choose and live how we wish to live. But all of this comes from the value of the work of the individual.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

sure were prosperous but what about the other 80 or so percent living in impoverished conditions. We are useless feeders that serve one purpose and that is to consume everything we can that is not neccisary. that is what is wrong while i sit here and type this message on the computer somebody is starving because the slave labour wages we pay foreingers to manufacture our goods is not enough to put food on the table. Just so we can enjoy our selves and live like glutonous kings.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5499 Location: Dreamland, NC

Canadian_Patriot wrote: sure were prosperous but what about the other 80 or so percent living in impoverished conditions. We are useless feeders that serve one purpose and that is to consume everything we can that is not neccisary. that is what is wrong while i sit here and type this message on the computer somebody is starving because the slave labour wages we pay foreingers to manufacture our goods is not enough to put food on the table. Just so we can enjoy our selves and live like glutonous kings.

By producing and consuming goods we spread wealth to these other countries. It is unfortunate that these people are less fortunate but it is our obligation to take advantage of our circumstances. When Nike buys a plant in Tailand. Those aren't slave labor wages. Those people working in those plants make decent money and enjoy their jobs. Its only those stupid scholarly elite that believe that those people are in a bad position. There only in a bad position when we take away those plants and there left without work. If you live in one of those countries you are lucky if you have a corporate plant in your backyard.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

enjoy their jobs tell that to the 30 million political dissodents in china forced into slave labour. You are clearly oblivious to what's really happening and how the rest of the world views us. Nike and other companies get nailed all the time for letting 8 year olds work 12 hours days for 7 cents a day and then sell you a pair of shoes for 150$. that's how money is made and if the corperate elite had it their way they would make you do the same.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5499 Location: Dreamland, NC

Canadian_Patriot wrote: enjoy their jobs tell that to the 30 million political dissodents in china forced into slave labour. You are clearly oblivious to what's really happening and how the rest of the world views us. Nike and other companies get nailed all the time for letting 8 year olds work 12 hours days for 7 cents a day and then sell you a pair of shoes for 150$. that's how money is made and if the corperate elite had it their way they would make you do the same.

No it would not be profitable to let the corporate elite do it that way. They need us to be rich and prosperous in order to have enough money to buy their goods. They know this. Why dont you take away that manufacturing plant and see what really happens in that country. Massive unemployment and a poor standard of living becopmes standard when companies take away those manufacturing plants.

MLBrandow · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 105 Location: Tallahassee, FL

Canadian_Patriot wrote: sure were prosperous but what about the other 80 or so percent living in impoverished conditions. We are useless feeders that serve one purpose and that is to consume everything we can that is not neccisary. that is what is wrong while i sit here and type this message on the computer somebody is starving because the slave labour wages we pay foreingers to manufacture our goods is not enough to put food on the table. Just so we can enjoy our selves and live like glutonous kings.

You also need to address counter-points in order to maintain your argument. You can't just throw new vague points out that continue to emphasize a counter-argument and expect that to be sufficient.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

It costs a few cents to make shoes and they get over a hundred dollars profit i call that a cash crop.

MLBrandow · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 105 Location: Tallahassee, FL

Canadian_Patriot wrote: It costs a few cents to make shoes and they get over a hundred dollars profit i call that a cash crop.

Yes, but you are looking at it from a very western perspective.

A few cents or dollars to Westerners seems like slave labor, but to the people working in countries where they otherwise would be unemployed (thus generating zero income), it is a decent wage.

Call it what you like, but it is a win/win situation on either side. Whether you agree with 18 or 20 hour workdays is moot. The people working under these conditions do so because their own governments are failing or have failed to provide jobs for them.

gekoman7 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 3

MLBrandow wrote: Canadian_Patriot wrote: It costs a few cents to make shoes and they get over a hundred dollars profit i call that a cash crop.

Yes, but you are looking at it from a very western perspective.

And so are you. They make more money than they would otherwise, but are they really better off? Working and obscene amount of hours and an incredibly menial task does not make someone's life better whether they get 7 cents or $10,000,000. It's just plain not good for one's psyche. Most of the people in third world countries would be better off fending for themselves in the wilderness than living in the conditions that they are. They get the freedom to do as they please and will probably have more food anyway. While that is very unrealistic, it still raises the point that they would be better off as savages (and I use that term loosely) than living how they are right now. So, if there were no factories what would they do? their would be tons and tons of people out of work forced to make things themselves rather than rely of foreign, oppressive forces. Will it happen? no. Would they be better off? Hell yes.

As for the whole breaking out of the machine thing, the fact of the matter is most people don't want to break free. They're the slaves or corporate America and are loving every minute of it. The ethics of taking away something from the majority because you don't like it just aren't there.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Most of the people in third world countries would be better off fending for themselves in the wilderness than living in the conditions that they are.

I feel that you should show some tolerance of other people's choices. If they'd be better off than why aren't they doing it?

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Canadian_Patriot wrote: We are human capital to the not only governments but big business as well you are someones property whether you like it or not. realization is the key for securing our freedom as human beings.

The population of the united states is owned. No matter how hard people work they will never escape debt. In fact it is our only protection from a worthless currency because our money is legal tender for all debts public and private. If the money turns into paper carried around in bushel baskets the man with the most debts will be the biggest winner.

The realization you are looking for is this: All of society, all institutions, and all economies are forms of relationship. To simplify, we go to work or church or school as much to relate to others as for every other purpose. We are there to be one among others. Sometimes our relationships do not meet our needs, but the relationships hold us together long after. To look at revolutions across the world, we can see that long before the event occurred the society was failing its members, and when bankruptcy or disasters came along the society crumbled and people began to find new forms of relationships. There does not have to be violence. Someone I heard on the bug light said it was time to take to the streets with guns, or some such thing. That is like putting the last option first. All that is needed really is to withdraw your support, and your belief, and your acceptance of the situation as it is. Freedom in the only sense that freedom is available in an unfree society is yours for the price of a conscious rejection of society as it stands. Resist patiently and non violently, and begin building new relationships founded on justice, equality, and liberty.

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Corporations are controlled by the free-market sector, which is controlled by consumers. There is no corporation that is an anomaly in this scheme, and all answer to us indirectly. Incidentally, every time you protest, you profess your faith to the government which gave you the right to do so. If you suggest anarchy, it would mean the collapse of all humanity, and our lives would be brutal, short, and inhuman.

Is this even philosophy? Why is it in this section?

Go rant in the Political section.

Also, I hope you buy a Shift/Caps Lock key as well as a Comma key one day soon for your keyboard, it takes a bit away from your argument when its barely coherent.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Addison wrote: Corporations are controlled by the free-market sector, which is controlled by consumers. There is no corporation that is an anomaly in this scheme, and all answer to us indirectly. Incidentally, every time you protest, you profess your faith to the government which gave you the right to do so. If you suggest anarchy, it would mean the collapse of all humanity, and our lives would be brutal, short, and inhuman.

Is this even philosophy? Why is it in this section?

Go rant in the Political section.

Also, I hope you buy a Shift/Caps Lock key as well as a Comma key one day soon for your keyboard, it takes a bit away from your argument when its barely coherent.

Perhaps indirect control of anomalous corporations is not sufficient control. Perhaps the very immortality of a corporation compared to a mere human gives the corporation an insurmountable advantage. Perhaps the political speech our corporation can amplify with every free dollar makes it louder than any consumer. What if the coziness of the conspiracy of government and business results in consumers without choice, but more work, less pay, and higher costs.

Can your criticism of Anarchy be justified. Certainly humanity has survived to this point with few laws, less law makers, and little government. Government is like industry in being one of those things most people have no control over even though both government and business influence everyones life. It is because the running of both is done badly by only a few people, while for peoples of the past, government was always done by everyone and so reasonably well. Even an anarchist might agree that government has all the power it needs to do good, and none of the power it needs to do harm. We cannot delegate to government any power, or right we do not personally own, nor do we give to it the power to injure us. Both government and business by virtue of their immortality must always be responsive and answerable to the people. Short of that situation they are against the people they are over.

PS: People give to government the power to defend rights, but the government gives no person their rights. If, to defend the rights of the majority or minority government denies rights to an individual this act should always be open for scrutiny. If we recognize special rights for a citizen within the boundaries of this country we must also recognize the rights of foreign citizens in their own lands. Think about the justification of government, and compare that with an objective standard of justice in our land. Can we say it is more just that people serve and literally slave for their government while their government is shopping with their money and future earnings for the means to make them slaves permanently. Our servant has become our master, fearful and furtive, considering us Helots and planning our terror.

gekoman7 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 3

Reason wrote: Quote: Most of the people in third world countries would be better off fending for themselves in the wilderness than living in the conditions that they are.

I feel that you should show some tolerance of other people's choices. If they'd be better off than why aren't they doing it?

In case you didn't notice, it's rather hard to go all back to nature in an industrialized society. I meant that they would be better off in a fictitious situation where they would be hunting and gathering or whatever with a bunch of hunter gatherer buddies, not that they should find some woods and prey they survive. That would just be silly.