Political Crossfire Forums

[Kumar]

Infinite911911 wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: letsgooilers wrote: To my knowledge, the seal hunt needs to happen, otherise the fishing stocks are serious depleleted. Which means a ton of people in newfoundland and labrador are screwed workwise. As best as I know, the seal hunt was actually stopped a while back, and they found the fish stocks seriously depleted.

so why do they need to kill the baby seals? don't get me wrong, i don't think they should be killing either babies or adults, because in the end they are not doing it for the supply of fish. they are doing it to make a profit. the fish thing sounds like an excuse to me. why do we need to play mother nature anyhow and intervene? what about the seals? what about when they become endangered from our mercilessly clubbing them?


What I find funny is how Humans automatically assume those fish stocks are ours. Seals have been hunting there LONG before we ever existed and the fish and seal populations were fine. To quote Jean-Jacques Rousseau, "One must not forget that the fruits belong to all and that the land belongs to no one.”
This is just absurd, you seem to want to punish humans for having evolved an advanced cognitive function and condemn them for making use of a natural tool. Those fish, like everything else in nature, are available to the species or population most capable and efficient at capturing them. I guess we should sit down with the other taxa and apologize for being more advanced creatures.

[Infinite911911]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

[Kumar]

Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

[Infinite911911]

Rohit wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

So our ability to kill, even ourselves is what makes us Superior?

[Carly]

I tried to link a site where you can sign a petition, but the link didn't work

:(

[thefranzkafkafront]

Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

[Kumar]

Infinite911911 wrote: Rohit wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

So our ability to kill, even ourselves is what makes us Superior?
Indeed. Can ants understand the laws of physics? Are elephants capable of understanding the relevance of isotopes? And so on...and so what if these weapons are against ourselves? A species is not a collective unit, only populations within the species are (if even that). Why do you think elephant seals fight each other? Why do members of the same species kill each other in nature?

Even wrt to fishing, having the natural ability to construct ships and other machinery to capture fish is far superior to the methods used by creatures less developed. We are using what is natural.

[Carly]

Infinite911911 wrote: Rohit wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

So our ability to kill, even ourselves is what makes us Superior?

By his logic meercats would be superior. Those guys are wicked hunters.

[Kumar]

Carly wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Rohit wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

So our ability to kill, even ourselves is what makes us Superior?

By his logic meercats would be superior. Those guys are wicked hunters.
How effective is a meercat against a tank?

[Carly]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

I already told you that animals have rights in our Criminal Code.

[Carly]

Rohit wrote: Carly wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Rohit wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures.

Infinite911911 wrote: In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on.

There's the answer.

So our ability to kill, even ourselves is what makes us Superior?

By his logic meercats would be superior. Those guys are wicked hunters.
How effective is a meercat against a tank?

They're sharp senses will spot it miles away, and the "watcher" meercat will summon the others. They'll be gone long before the tank arrives.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Carly wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

I already told you that animals have rights in our Criminal Code.

Most crimnal and penal codes are based on nothing more than opinion, ergo they cannot be invoked in any serious debate.

As.
1. they are subjective, nazi criminal codes din't clasify Jews as people mid 1940's
2. they are finite in time, if a right is grated by a criminal code in 1980, dose that mean that the rights of that entity did not exist in 1970.

[Carly]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Carly wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

I already told you that animals have rights in our Criminal Code.

Most crimnal and penal codes are based on nothing more than opinion, ergo they cannot be invoked in any serious debate.

As.
1. they are subjective, nazi criminal codes din't clasify Jews as people mid 1940's
2. they are finite in time, if a right is grated by a criminal code in 1980, dose that mean that the rights of that entity did not exist in 1970.

So people convicted of animal neglect and cruelty is just opinion? No, it's action. They go to jail.

[Kumar]

Carly wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

I already told you that animals have rights in our Criminal Code.
That in no way disqualifies what he is saying. A law loses legitimacy if unable to be qualified by the appropriate reasoning; it's not infallible.

Carly wrote: They're sharp senses will spot it miles away, and the "watcher" meercat will summon the others. They'll be gone long before the tank arrives.
In that case, I suspect the optimal approach would be to carpet bomb the area. Probably around the home area for maximum effectiveness.

The point is that humans have the intelligence to develop technology and implement diligent methods to accomplish a goal. The meercat would not stand a chance if a human population desired to extinguish it, and the meercat certainly could not threaten a human population. It's therefore fallacious to state that they are "superior".

[thefranzkafkafront]

Carly wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Carly wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

Rights require a concious, you cannot philosophically state that a seal exists as a seperate entitiy from our own minds unless it has the ability to doubt.

Ability to feal pain dose not equate rights in a entity.

The main flaw in your argument is that conscious is not held by all Humans. You state that only Humans have rights because only they are conscious, when in fact you are very wrong. Children, the mentally disable and people in comas have no conscious or awareness of their environment and own existence. So are you saying those people lack rights? thefranzkafkafront, the basic right of life is given to everything at birth.

Then i shall draw my argument out futher.

When i say concious, i mean quite spesifically a nervous system capable of receiveing processing and most important systhesising emperical data and concepts to a level which allows the mechanism of doubt and thus allowing the entitity to justfy its own extance.


Prove to me that animals can't do this. Explain to me why Humans are superior to every creatures. Explain to me why we have the right to kill whatever animal we feel like. In your explaination don't forget that we are the only species to develop weapons able to destroys the planet we live on. Don't forget we are the only species that kills and hates just because. Don't forget we are the species that is polluting the Earth so bad that pretty so it will be unable to support any kind of life. So tell me, what makes us so great?

well you've croped my argument there, but im going to assume you read all of it.

My only answer can be, as we are trapped behind a viel of perception we can only base our conclusion on the assumptions that emperical sense data is correct.

Thus for the proposition that 'animals' possess a concious to be taken as true (rember it can never be taken as false only unproven as a nessity of logic) animal x would be required as an embassador to its species to show emperical evidence that it possessed a concious capable of philosophical doubt.
Untill we have evidence of this, we must work on the assumption that the proposition is unproven.

Thus animals (or seals to be more spesific) at this current point in time cannot be said to be inpossession of rights.

What makes us so great, well science is pretty kick ass, overall though its philosophy in which we completely trump eveything else on this planet. Mankind if the first species in our known universe that has analysied knowledge in itself.

As for the utilisation of the earth, an action (whatever it is) against a entity not in possesion of rights cannot be unjustifed or 'immoral'.

I already told you that animals have rights in our Criminal Code.

Most crimnal and penal codes are based on nothing more than opinion, ergo they cannot be invoked in any serious debate.

As.
1. they are subjective, nazi criminal codes din't clasify Jews as people mid 1940's
2. they are finite in time, if a right is grated by a criminal code in 1980, dose that mean that the rights of that entity did not exist in 1970.

So people convicted of animal neglect and cruelty is just opinion? No, it's action. They go to jail.

And people harboring Jews in nazi germany were sent to jail.

Criminal law is fallible and based on a socital contract.

[ikari]

I agree with thefranzkafkafront in that seals don't have any rights. That doesn't mean that we don't have any sort of responsibility to be kind to these animials or that we shouldn't try to do our best to curb animal abuse. But in pure tense of rights, animals don't have them. If these people can get close enough to club these seals, why can't they just shoot them instead of club them? At least then you would ensure that they weren't suffering or skinned alive.

[RealRepublicanArmy]

Infinite911911 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Seals may look fluffy, they however lack rights.


:gdgf: How does a seal lack rights? Does it not tremble before violence? Was it not born with the same rights to life as you were? All things fear death and all things love life thefranzkafkafront. See yourself in others for a change. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?

If we can imprison human beings in guantanamo bay indefinitely, 55 percent of which have done nothing wrong, according to statistics released by the state department, then we can club baby seals.

[Carly]

ikari wrote: I agree with thefranzkafkafront in that seals don't have any rights. That doesn't mean that we don't have any sort of responsibility to be kind to these animials or that we shouldn't try to do our best to curb animal abuse. But in pure tense of rights, animals don't have them. If these people can get close enough to club these seals, why can't they just shoot them instead of club them? At least then you would ensure that they weren't suffering or skinned alive.

Yes, I think that the topic got sidelined.

The reason why the seals are killed the way they are, is to have the least amount of damage done to their skin. This is why they are slaughtered so horrifically, and this also proves that the hunt is not about the fish that they eat.

[ikari]

Well I'm no seal clubber, and I suppose the damage to the skin is a logical excuse. I just don't see how much damage one would do if they just shot them in the head instead of clubbing.

[StrangerWitCandy]

so if humans are indeed the superior species, then what do you think we should choose to do with that superiority? should we use our power to profit from the lives of other animals in a way that no other animal on the planet does? or should we only kill others when we need to?

clubbing baby seals to sell their skins for profit is shallow. i can't see it any other way and I think it should be stopped.

we may be superior in strength, but not always in compassion apparently.